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williamtsullivan(at)att.n
Guest

Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2008 3:44 am Post subject: ceiling

A couple of questions- Dana's mention of the Ercoupe got me thinking. Whenever we used to do stalls in the Ercoupe, I remember having to put on the carb heat to deter icing. With the incredible climb and descent rates of the Kolbs, does anyone know why the 447 and similar engines don't need carb heat? 

    Also, does anyone know the rated service ceiling of a Firestar l with a 447? I know somebody went to about 17k with a Kolb- presumably with oxygen- and others have mentioned 12k.

    The TNK info is vague on this.

                                    

                                                      Bill Sullivan

                                                     FS l

                                                     Windsor Locks, Ct.

 [quote][b]

lcottrell

Joined: 29 May 2006
Posts: 1494
Location: Jordan Valley, Or

Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2008 7:20 am Post subject: ceiling

According to the FAA (sport pilot) it is 10,000 feet. While it  will go a lot higher it just takes a loooooooong time.

 Larry C

 do not archive

 [quote]   ---

_________________
do not archive

Arty Trost

Joined: 25 May 2006
Posts: 206
Location: Sandy, Oregon

Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2008 7:38 am Post subject: ceiling

--- william sullivan <williamtsullivan(at)att.net> wrote:



.. I know somebody went to

 	  Quote: 	
		   about 17k with a Kolb- presumably with oxygen- and

 others have mentioned 12k.


	


 	  Quote: 	
		   Bill Sullivan

                                                     


	


You can go pretty high without oxygen as long as you

don't stay up there very long.  A friend of mine flew

his Thundergull with a 447 to 17,700' without oxygen. 

He just wanted to see how high he could take it, so

circled, circled, circled, up, up, up.  At 17,700'  it

just wouldn't climb any more, and he pointed the nose

down.  I don't remember how long it took him to get up

there and back into "breathable, normal" air.  If

you're interested, I can find out.



Arty Trost

Sandy, Oregon

Maxair Drifter



www.LessonsFromTheEdge.com



"Life's a daring adventure or nothing"

                      Helen Keller



"I refuse to tip toe through life just to arrive safely at death."

rlaird

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 373
Location: Houston

Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2008 8:16 am Post subject: ceiling

On 3/22/08, TheWanderingWench <thewanderingwench(at)yahoo.com> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		    You can go pretty high without oxygen as long as you

  don't stay up there very long.  A friend of mine flew

  his Thundergull with a 447 to 17,700' without oxygen.

  He just wanted to see how high he could take it, so

  circled, circled, circled, up, up, up.  At 17,700'  it

  just wouldn't climb any more, and he pointed the nose

  down.  I don't remember how long it took him to get up

  there and back into "breathable, normal" air.  If

  you're interested, I can find out.


	


Arty --



I hate to say it, but, this is really bad advice to be handing out.



The decreased partial pressure of oxygen encountered at increasing

altitude can quickly lead to incapacitation or death.  The lethal

effects of acute altitude hypoxia cannot be underestimated. Deaths

have occurred at altitude between 17,000 and 20,000 feet.



Even hypoxic episodes that lead to mental confusion may result

ultimately in the loss of the airplane because of the mental

disorientation during or after the episode.



The atmospheric pressure decrease at 10,000-foot altitude causes 523mm

Hg ambient air pressure resulting in 87 percent hemoglobin saturation

and 61mm Hg arterial oxygen.



At 15,000 feet (429mm Hg) the hemoglobin saturation is 80 percent (we

need 87-97 percent for normal functioning), and arterial oxygen is

44mm Hg (the body requires 60-100mm Hg.).



Every individual has a different ability to withstand such low partial

pressures, and that ability can actually change day-to-day, so it's

not predictable.



  -- Robert

_________________
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Robert Laird
formerly: MkIIIc w/ 912ULS & Gyrobee
current: Autogyro Cavalon w/ 914ULS
Houston, TX area
http://www.Texas-Flyer.com

Dana

Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 1047
Location: Connecticut, USA

Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2008 3:10 pm Post subject: ceiling

At 07:41 AM 3/22/2008, william sullivan wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		     A couple of questions- Dana's mention of the Ercoupe got me thinking. 

 Whenever we used to do stalls in the Ercoupe, I remember having to put on 

 the carb heat to deter icing. With the incredible climb and descent rates 

 of the Kolbs, does anyone know why the 447 and similar engines don't need 

 carb heat?


	


My understanding is that while icing is possible (and does occasionally 

happen), it's less likely for three reasons:  First, the slide carburetors 

we use are less likely to ice up than the butterfly type used on 

conventional engines; the oil mixed with the gas makes ice less likely to 

adhere to the carburetor surfaces, and the nature of the 2-stroke induction 

means some mixture is blown back part way into the manifold / carburetor 

before the piston covers the inlet port, heating and/or dislodging any ice.



This was some of the information I was given last year when I thought I had 

an icing problem, but it turned out to be a jetting problem (too rich for 

the hot humid weather I was flying in).



That said, there _are_ outfits making electric carburetor heaters for Bing 

carburetors (basically a heated plate that sandwiches between the carb and 

manifold.



-Dana

--

  Stupidity got us into this mess... why can't it get us out?

David Lucas

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 79
Location: Europe. based Amsterdam NL

Posted: Sun Mar 23, 2008 5:49 am Post subject: Re: ceiling

 	  Quote: 	
		  You can go pretty high without oxygen as long as you 

don't stay up there very long 	




Alarm Bells Ringing ! ! ! !



In aircraft like Beech Barons, Cessna 402 series etc I used to climb above 10,000 ft to get across the ranges in Papua New Guinea. The VFR gaps through the mountain valleys (at about 8000 ft) would close with cloud by late morning but you'd often find a gap in the cloud above the same gap in the terrain. We'd get up to 14,000 or so, occasionaly higher, to get through to the other side (but never proceeding without a clear view of good wx on the other side). So we were above 10,000 ft for maybe 20 minutes. Still, even after that short time I would get symptoms of headache telling me its time to get down, and that was when I was young and fit, in my 20's. 



How long it would take a non turbo charged Kolb to get up to 17,000 ft I shudder to think, unless of course you carried and used oxygen.



I was lucky, I would get warning signs that I recognised, others don't get them in time. A dangerous and insidious side effect of lack of oxygen can be a feeling of well being, so much so that it can affect your judgement into thinking your OK whilst it may be exactly the opposite.



I know of one guy who went up high to take advantage of a good tailwind which he did get, but he was so euphoric he decided to continue on and not bother about the planned en-route fuel stop. Fortunately luck was on his side and he made it to his destination, but on taxying in the engine stopped due fuel starvation that he was not even aware of.



As his body recovered to normal oxygen levels, he realised how lucky he had been.



So be careful folks. If you chose to go above 10,000 for any length of time you're courting trouble and you may not even be aware of it !



Safe flying !



David.

lucien

Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 721
Location: santa fe, NM

Posted: Sun Mar 23, 2008 7:07 am Post subject: Re: ceiling

[quote="David Lucas"] 	  Quote: 	
		  



So be careful folks. If you chose to go above 10,000 for any length of time you're courting trouble and you may not even be aware of it !



Safe flying !



David. 	




Unless you're acclimated to it. I live at 7000' MSL and recreate from time to time at our ski area which is at 10,000' MSL.

I also fly regularly at altitudes right near the SP limit of 10,000' with no detectable affects.

The folks in the CO rockies live at even higher altitudes and fly through the passes up there sans O2 at 13,999' MSL all the time.....



I'm being a little bit tongue-in-cheek, but I'd still say a large _change_ in altitude over what you're acclimated to is more hazardous without O2, at least until you get to borderline (and legal) limits like 14,000'.



The first symptom I have is I start to see spots in front of my eyes, due to the blood vessles in the retina expanding a bit. This is very easy to detect and signals to me that I need to start being careful.



I no longer have symptoms at 10,000', but I sure did when I first moved here. I can't legally go any higher than 10,000' in my plane (though I will be able to in a sailplane) so it's not too big of an issue....



Still, advising caution on altitude affects is a good thing....



LS

_________________
LS
Titan II SS

gaman(at)att.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Mar 23, 2008 7:08 am Post subject: ceiling

Bill,

    The lack of a throttle plate down stream of the fuel discharge point really discourages ice build up in most  carbs.The 64cv  Bing has both a slide and a throttle plate and it ices readily.



---

Arty Trost

Joined: 25 May 2006
Posts: 206
Location: Sandy, Oregon

Posted: Sun Mar 23, 2008 8:46 am Post subject: ceiling

Robert wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   I hate to say it, but, this is really bad advice to

 be handing out.


	




Thanks for pointing out that some folks might take it

as advice.  I absolutely never meant it that way - it

was some information in response to the question about

what might be the ceiling for a rotax-powered

"ultralight".  But in re-reading the way I wrote it, I

can see how it might be interpreted as advice that

high altitude flying is o.k..



Everything that folks have written in this thread

about the dangers of high altitude flying - THAT's the

valuable advice.



Arty



--- Robert Laird <rlaird(at)cavediver.com> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <rlaird(at)cavediver.com>

 

 On 3/22/08, TheWanderingWench

 <thewanderingwench(at)yahoo.com> wrote:

 >  You can go pretty high without oxygen as long as

 you

 >  don't stay up there very long.  A friend of mine

 flew

 >  his Thundergull with a 447 to 17,700' without

 oxygen.

 >  He just wanted to see how high he could take it,

 so

 >  circled, circled, circled, up, up, up.  At

 17,700'  it

 >  just wouldn't climb any more, and he pointed the

 nose

 >  down.  I don't remember how long it took him to

 get up

 >  there and back into "breathable, normal" air.  If

 >  you're interested, I can find out.

 

 Arty --

 

 I hate to say it, but, this is really bad advice to

 be handing out.

 

 The decreased partial pressure of oxygen encountered

 at increasing

 altitude can quickly lead to incapacitation or

 death.  The lethal

 effects of acute altitude hypoxia cannot be

 underestimated. Deaths

 have occurred at altitude between 17,000 and 20,000

 feet.

 

 Even hypoxic episodes that lead to mental confusion

 may result

 ultimately in the loss of the airplane because of

 the mental

 disorientation during or after the episode.

 

 The atmospheric pressure decrease at 10,000-foot

 altitude causes 523mm

 Hg ambient air pressure resulting in 87 percent

 hemoglobin saturation

 and 61mm Hg arterial oxygen.

 

 At 15,000 feet (429mm Hg) the hemoglobin saturation

 is 80 percent (we

 need 87-97 percent for normal functioning), and

 arterial oxygen is

 44mm Hg (the body requires 60-100mm Hg.).

 

 Every individual has a different ability to

 withstand such low partial

 pressures, and that ability can actually change

 day-to-day, so it's

 not predictable.

 

   -- Robert

 



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www.LessonsFromTheEdge.com



"Life's a daring adventure or nothing"

                      Helen Keller



"I refuse to tip toe through life just to arrive safely at death."

a58r(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Mar 23, 2008 10:33 am Post subject: ceiling

I've not (yet?) had the pleasure of "Kolbing" at high altitudes, I have crossed the western mountains a few times at 14500 in 125, 145, 160 hp GA planes. Of course that was 'most 40 yrs back when I was but a hale/hearty 45, One time I felt so good, tailwind and all, that I continued on east toward Lamar. What got my attention was that my cigar (then, not now) would go out unless I kept drawing hard on it...in the ashtray, it'd go out in about 20 seconds! Time to descend.  



 regards,

Bob N.    FireFly 070 Old Kolb

http://www.angelfire.com/rpg/ronoy/

do not archive



 



 [quote][b]

russ(at)rkiphoto.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Mar 23, 2008 11:59 am Post subject: ceiling

List, FWIW --

I put a STOL mod on my Cessna 170 - this was drooped tips, stall  

fences, new and blunter leading-edge cuffs and aeliron gap seals, We  

did careful test flights before & after, and came up with a 4%  

increase in cruise speeds. (A nice surprise!)

Much better stalls and slower flight before stall-warning horn went  

off. Slower landing speeds and a more solid 'feel' all around.

The landing distance needed was reduced by at least 20%.  I use slips  

a lot, and they were unchanged. I regret now that we didn't put on  

one thing at a time and test each time  - but we didn't. I was very  

pleased with the increased performance.

I've also spent some time at 13K and a tad higher. I trim for a  

gradual descent so if I pass out she should fly to a lower altitude  

all by herself. She's a very stable craft and flies hands-off almost  

indefinitely. So I think I'd have a fair chance of surviving, but am  

glad I never had to have it proven. Simulated no-pilot flights were  

fine, losing about 200FPM & no tendency to stall or spin.

BTW at those altitudes I get a coppery taste in my mouth, but it must  

just be my personal chemistry. Never met anyone else who reported it.  

I've been  in low-pressure chambers and know that you will have NO  

warning before passing out from hypoxia.

I also had one job that required going from sea level to 13K in the  

mountains, in one day. I tried to create a polycythemia (ability of  

blood to carry more oxygen) by running a lot for weeks before the  

trip. Seemed to work! I'm sure people who live at 5,6, or 7K feet  

would have less trouble at higher altitudes than us sea-level types.  

Younger better than older too; no surprise!

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Sun Mar 23, 2008 12:50 pm Post subject: Re: ceiling

If you are in good health, going over 10,000 feet is not problem.  Attached below is a picture of me on my motorcycle at 15,000 feet in South America, the bike which has scary amounts of power would barely run at that altitude, but it got me there    I stayed at high altitude for days, and I live at sea level....  No ill effects and no problem.



I had my Cessna to 150 to 18,000 once, took a couple hours but it got there.  



Each person is different, many can handle altitude with no problem, many cant.  Just watch for the signs, know if you are in good health or not, and know your limits.



Mike

MikePeruArequipa.JPG

Description:

On my Motorcycle at 15,000 feet.

Filesize:

314.38 KB

Viewed:

376 Time(s)

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

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