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Rotax 582 Starter Problem?

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Guy Buchanan

Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 1204
Location: Ramona, CA

Posted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 11:10 am Post subject: Rotax 582 Starter Problem?

All,

         Can a starter short a battery? This happened on my Ford van 

and now I think it's happened to my Rotax 582. (Battery appears OK, 

no start, battery stone dead. How did I know the starter failed on 

the Ford Van? Easy, first I replaced the batteries, it wouldn't 

start, then I replaced the starter. The starter fixed it.)

         Today upon start the Rotax starter engaged for maybe 1/2 

second then died. Upon an attempted re-start all I got was a weak 

solenoid click and the battery was down to 9.7 volts. As of Saturday 

afternoon the battery was 13 volts and I had left nothing on since 

then. (I do not know the voltage when I tried to start, but it was 

definitely not 9.7 volts as the 1/2 engagement was much more 

energetic than the subsequent clicks.) I have been fighting a cold 

engine weak start for the past few months, assuming it was ground 

issues. I had reworked the ground system and replaced the battery to no avail.

         First, what fails in the starter to dead short the battery? 

Is there any way to diagnose the starter before I remove it? 

(Resistance checks, etc.) Can I rebuild the starter? Finally, anybody 

know if a 912 starter will work on the 582? (I'm interested in the 

Sky-Tec starter.)



Thanks,

Guy Buchanan

San Diego, CA

K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.

_________________
Guy Buchanan
Deceased K-IV 1200
A glider pilot too.

Fox5flyer
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 12:40 pm Post subject: Rotax 582 Starter Problem?

Guy, how old is the bad battery?  Older batteries, and some newer ones, 

occasionally lose a cell for no apparent reason, especially those that have 

a few years on them.  It can happen suddenly so I wouldn't be too quick to 

blame the starter.  From your description of the problem, it sounds like 

your battery has been warning you for awhile now and has finally given up 

the ghost.  Try a new battery and see what happens.

Deke Morisse

Mikado Michigan

S5/Subaru/CAP 355+ TT

"The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but progress."

- Joseph Joubert



---

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 1:59 pm Post subject: Re: Rotax 582 Starter Problem?

Guy, 

First , check water level in battery

load test your battery after it fully charged.

you likely gotta dead cell. 



40 $ fora new battery -- mine a motorcycle battery and 4 years old still starts when  0 F  outside   



How did it start when you jumped it ?  assuming that you did ? If it was ok then likely the starter OK 



912 starter not same as 582. 

582 starter if you got C box you gotta pull engine.  30 mins or so. 



Starter will not kill a battery as the juice comes past the solenoid.  If the solenoid was stuck then you could have a starter that is partially engage but unlikely.

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akflyer

Joined: 07 May 2007
Posts: 574
Location: Soldotna AK

Posted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 2:34 pm Post subject: Re: Rotax 582 Starter Problem?

Guy,



My starter did this same EXACT thing.  I bought new battery no joy.. just the weak clicking of the solenoid.  well that right thar pointed me to the solenoid, so I bought a new one and put that on.  Real nice clickety click still.  pulled starter and pulled the back off it, the armature was filthy and pitted.  I was not liking the thought of 700 bucks for a rotax starter so I got real smart and ordered a GPL starter.  you may say hey thats good thinking right... wrong.  the GPL wont fit the Avid unless I cut out some of the firewall tubes and re-design the mounts... (I now have a real cool 500.00 anodized paper weight but hey it was cheaper than a Rotax starter)



 so I chucked the starter shaft in a drill and spun it while holding emory cloth on the armature.  The brushes looked good so I put it back together and wala works like new.



So now I am ready, new battery, new solenoid, working rotax starter and a useless GPL with recoil < you wanna buy it??? LOL

_________________
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Leonard Perry aka SNAKE
Soldotna AK
Avid "C" / Mk IV
582 (147 hrs and counting on the rebuild)
IVO IFA
Full Lotus 1450
#1 snake oil salesman since 1-22-2009

I would rather die trying to live, than to live trying not to die....

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 2:40 pm Post subject: Re: Rotax 582 Starter Problem?

 	  Quote: 	
		  My starter did this same EXACT thing. I bought new battery no joy.. just the weak clicking of the solenoid 	




If the batter is losing voltage , that starter is unlikely the culprit. 

However , the starter that needs it commutators turned and/or brushes can not perform well.   A simple clean up like you did was perfect, just make sure you clean between the commutator bars after using emery cloth or turing.  



Hand propping is always an option , good reason for NOt having a clutch.

akflyer

Joined: 07 May 2007
Posts: 574
Location: Soldotna AK

Posted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 2:48 pm Post subject: Re: Rotax 582 Starter Problem?

 	  dave wrote: 	
		   	  Quote: 	
		  My starter did this same EXACT thing. I bought new battery no joy.. just the weak clicking of the solenoid 	




If the batter is losing voltage , that starter is unlikely the culprit. 

However , the starter that needs it commutators turned and/or brushes can not perform well.   A simple clean up like you did was perfect, just make sure you clean between the commutator bars after using emery cloth or turing.  



Hand propping is always an option , good reason for NOt having a clutch. 	




I could charge the battery have it showing 13+ volts hit the key a couple times and bam, under 10 volts.  This was the old battery, brand new wet cell out of my kids snowmachine and finally a new Odesey battery that was gonna cure my problems...for what ever reason it can down to the starter killing <draining> a new battery in just a few seconds of hitting the key.



100% agree, hit it with air then electri clean then air again to make sure it is clean.



I also stopped by the local auto electric repair shop and they said they could upgrade the brush plate and re-build the starter for under a 100.00.



I am told that a starter of the 2000 sea-doo is the same one as the 582 and can be had new for around 280 bucks.

davedawe(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 3:07 pm Post subject: Rotax 582 Starter Problem?

Hi

 I replaced plus cable with heavy duty cable,works now.





   

 > Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2008 11:55:52 -0700

 	  Quote: 	
		   To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com; rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com; aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com

 From: bnn(at)nethere.com

 Subject: Rotax 582 Starter Problem?

 

 --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Guy Buchanan <bnn(at)nethere.com>

 

 All,

 Can a starter short a battery? This happened on my Ford van 

 and now I think it's happened to my Rotax 582. (Battery appears OK, 

 no start, battery stone dead. How did I know the starter failed on 

 the Ford Van? Easy, first I replaced the batteries, it wouldn't 

 start, then I replaced the starter. The starter fixed it.)

 Today upon start the Rotax starter engaged for maybe 1/2 

 second then died. Upon an attempted re-start all I got was a weak 

 solenoid click and the battery was down to 9.7 volts. As of Saturday 

 afternoon the battery was 13 volts and I had left nothing on since 

 then. (I do not know the voltage when I tried to start, but it was 

 definitely not 9.7 volts as the 1/2 engagement was much more 

 energetic than the subsequent clicks.) I have been fighting a cold 

 engine weak start for the past few months, assuming it was ground 

 issues. I had reworked the ground system and replaced the battery to no avail.

 First, what fails in the starter to dead short the battery? 

 Is there any way to diagnose the starter before I remove it? 

 (Resistance checks, etc.) Can I rebuild the starter? Finally, anybody 

 know if a 912 starter will work on the 582? (I'm interested in the 

 Sky-Tec starter.)

 

 Thanks,

 

 

 Guy Buchanan

 San Diego, CA

 K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar. 

&g=======================
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 


	


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Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 3:38 pm Post subject: Rotax 582 Starter Problem?

One word Leonard: E-Bay  

   

Do not archive  

Noel  

   

--

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 4:14 pm Post subject: Re: Rotax 582 Starter Problem?

700 $ not bad for a Rotax brand new starter.

you can buy the brushes locally usually. I do. 



When you replace a starter make sure you tighten it properly .  

1 mm  (.040 ) clearance. too tight and you will bust the alum housing it bolts too.  That is another 400 to 500$ 



You better if you ready for a gear box to buy a new  E  gear box with starter for 2300 $

Guy Buchanan

Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 1204
Location: Ramona, CA

Posted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 10:14 pm Post subject: Rotax 582 Starter Problem?

Thanks All,

         You were right, it was the battery. Somehow I killed it. 

When I jumped it with my RV deep-cycle the engine started, still 

hesitantly, like the starter was weak, but the engine started and the 

load meter showed a charge. When I removed the RV battery the charge 

went to zero and when I shut down the on-board battery was still 

dead. I then worked around with the jumper cables trying to eliminate 

various elements, starter solenoid, cables, etc. but nothing improved 

the starting. It appears that the starter may be weak after all. I 

still have to get voltage drops and cranking voltage. Unfortunately I 

have to pull the engine to get access to the starter so that may be a while.

Guy Buchanan

San Diego, CA

K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.

_________________
Guy Buchanan
Deceased K-IV 1200
A glider pilot too.

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Tue Mar 25, 2008 7:47 am Post subject: Rotax 582 Starter Problem?

Your dead battery is also loading the RV battery in parallel with your

starter.  Leave the booster cables on for around twenty minutes before

trying to start the plane.  Also check the levels in your plane's battery

cells.



Noel



--

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

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