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CJ Aux Fuel

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3bar(at)telus.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Mar 23, 2008 9:41 am Post subject: CJ Aux Fuel

On a cautionary note following up on Doug and  Walt's comments; my CJ has Doug's aux fuel tanks which are great as I did  not have the expense of install. However, whoever did the install did NOT follow  Doug's instructions and the result was bowed belly skins, and popped rivets on  the tank bottoms, Both tanks had to be removed and new ribs installed and  riveted and welded, and the lower skins replaced along with new structure  to properly support same. This was discovered and repaired by Bill  Nicholson at Star Airmotive in Oroville, Wa. The original job was a supreme sham  and a disgrace to the industry as it was cheap and ineffective. The straps  used to secure the tanks in the bays was 1/16" steel cable which had almost worn  through the tanks on three spots. I was fortunate not to pop a tank out the  bottom during higher "G" maneuvers.Be very careful who does your "mod" to ensure  it is correct.

  

 Cheers,

  

 Paul Dumoret

   [quote][b]

cpayne(at)joimail.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Mar 23, 2008 3:10 pm Post subject: CJ Aux Fuel

Ah yes, let the buyer beware! While my skinny butt appreciates frequent breaks on x-countries, I like having some options when fuel gets low...such as turning on the aux tank. To this end I have installed a 15 gallon tank on the ADF rack, which selectively pumps into the left main tank. Since the left and right have a cross-feed, I can control my fuel balance.

  

 Balance was the principal problem; until I figured out how to properly rig the CJ, I had uneven fuel burns. While an uneven burn is not a flight emergency, it bothered me enough to shorten my flight legs. I find that that 54 gallons usable is plenty for me. Couple the extra bit of fuel with a clean airframe and engine tuned for cruise, and I get 11+ nmpg. I did a 520 NM leg once but that was cutting it down to a 30 minute reserve at reduced power.

  

 The one benefit I can see with those really big tanks is that you can tanker on up on free fuel at airshows when you leave. However, the trend I have been seeing is a max gallon per type allotment at airshows.

  

  

 Craig Payne

 cpayne(at)joimail.com (cpayne(at)joimail.com)

  

  

 

  [quote][b]

wlannon(at)persona.ca
Guest

Posted: Sun Mar 23, 2008 6:03 pm Post subject: CJ Aux Fuel

Craig;

  

 Your aux. tank holds 90 lbs of fuel. With tank and  attachment and the pump, if also mounted on the ADF rack, you have a 100  lb. load. The ADF weighed 50 lbs and the structure would have been designed for  a 6G limit load with an ultimate of 9G (failure).

 The limit load for your aircraft has been reduced to 3G  with a full aux. tank. Failure of the ADF structure could seriously impact  elevator and rudder operation through displacement of the  cables.

  

 Walt 

  

 [quote]   ---

bhancock(at)worldwidewarb
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 10:17 am Post subject: CJ Aux Fuel

Gang,

You're points are all well taken.  Since we are nearing the completion of our first set of 30 gallon tanks for the CJ, I think this is a good time to bring our reasoning and design criterion into the discussion.



1)  I have Doug Sapp's center wing fuel tanks that add an additional 34 gallons of capacity on "Panda"  (coincidentally, she's the "cover girl" on the 2nd March issue of TAP).  This structure is much more robust than the company that installed Paul's tanks.  We were aware at that time of the problems with the other install and made sure we did the job right.  This was done prior to Worldwide Warbirds by an independent 3rd party.  It was given the thumbs up by a local DER and has proven itself well.



The downside of this mod, in my opinion, it that it is very labor intensive to install and cost me about $9k all up 5 years ago.  At today's labor rates, it would be even more expensive.  However, if you have the desire to carry 74 gallons of fuel, this is your best bet.  Even at the ripe young age of 40 I find anything more than 3 hours in the saddle of a CJ an effort in mind over matter control....others will find it a mind over bladder issue....either way it's pain I don't care to willingly endure.  Soo....



2)  60 gallons seems about right.  That's roughly 4 hours to empty at cruise settings.  3 hours with adequate reserves, even in the northern US and other parts of the West where options if you run into weather can be quite sparse.  It's also good for 3 45 min. formation flights without a refill.  



3)  The bladders offer a good increase in fuel capacity, but as Walt mentioned there are possible engineering issues.  To date, everything is OK with them, though I have heard of a few torn bladders on installation, etc.  The other issue is they are a) labor intensive to install, b) require new fuel level senders, new venting, new fuel gauge, etc., c) require maintenance (inspections), and d) are life limited.



After looking at the bladder installation, we decided there had to be a better way.  The goals of our system are:



1)  Cost effective.  The bladders, at approx. $6k installed are a good value.  We needed to be in that ballpark.

2)  Simple to install.  Avoid having to remove the wing from the aircraft or removing the butt rib to install the tank.  This saves time and money, and makes it reasonable to produce in kit form.

3)  Maintain the integrity of the original system as much as possible.  This means same vent system, same senders, same gauge, same installation techniques, etc.

4)  Structurally sound and FAA DER approved installation.  Clearly the mod needs to be structurally sound, safe under load, and built to last.



Methodology:



1)  Use former Boeing and current DoD recognized engineers familiar with structure design to bring the concept to life and develop drawings

2)  Use highly qualified structural sheet metal mechanics to fabricate tanks and modify the fuel tank bay.

3)  Make tank more user friendly with new fuel filler/cap, and quick drain on the bottom.

4)  Weld tanks using award winning welder with considerable fuel tank experience. 

Our first tank will be welded this week and we will begin wing modification.   We anticipate having the first tank installed in 3-4 weeks.  We will then install these tanks in 3 aircraft, again, with FAA DER approved design, which will allow us to build the installation instructions and sell the tanks in "kit" form.



Anyone who is interested in this mod for their aircraft please contact me directly.  We anticipate having the first set ready for delivery in kit form sometime this summer.



Thanks!



Barry



 

Barry Hancock                

Worldwide Warbirds, Inc. 

office (909) 606-4444 

cell    (949) 300-5510 

www.worldwidewarbirds.com 

www.cj6.com 



 

Express Mailing address: 

7000 Merrill Ave, B-110, Unit J 

Chino, CA 91710 



 

Regular Mailing address: 

7000 Merrill Ave., Box 91 

Chino, CA 91710 



 

The information contained in this e-mail message is intended only for the personal and confidential use of the designated recipients. If the reader of this message is not an intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any review, use, dissemination, forwarding or copying of this message is strictly prohibited. Please notify us immediately by reply e-mail or telephone, and delete the original message and all attachments from your system.  Thank you  



On Mar 23, 2008, at 11:58 PM, Yak-List Digest Server wrote:

[quote]

Time: 10:41:28 AM PST US 

From: "Paul Dumoret" <3bar(at)telus.net (3bar(at)telus.net)> 

Subject: CJ Aux Fuel 



 

On a cautionary note following up on Doug and Walt's comments; my CJ has  

Doug's aux fuel tanks which are great as I did not have the expense of  

install. However, whoever did the install did NOT follow Doug's  

instructions and the result was bowed belly skins, and popped rivets on  

the tank bottoms, Both tanks had to be removed and new ribs installed  

and riveted and welded, and the lower skins replaced along with new  

structure to properly support same. This was discovered and repaired by  

Bill Nicholson at Star Airmotive in Oroville, Wa. The original job was a  

supreme sham and a disgrace to the industry as it was cheap and  

ineffective. The straps used to secure the tanks in the bays was 1/16"  

steel cable which had almost worn through the tanks on three spots. I  

was fortunate not to pop a tank out the bottom during higher "G"  

maneuvers.Be very careful who does your "mod" to ensure it is correct. 



 

Cheers, 



 

Paul Dumoret [b]

Gill.G(at)gpimail.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 10:29 am Post subject: CJ Aux Fuel

Barry,  

   

This at best is self serving  

   

Gill  

         

  

From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Barry Hancock

 Sent: Monday, March 24, 2008 11:14 AM

 To: yak-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: CJ Aux Fuel  

  

   

Gang,    

   

    

You're points are all well taken. Since we are nearing the completion of our first set of 30 gallon tanks for the CJ, I think this is a good time to bring our reasoning and design criterion into the discussion.  

    

   

    

1) I have Doug Sapp's center wing fuel tanks that add an additional 34 gallons of capacity on "Panda" (coincidentally, she's the "cover girl" on the 2nd March issue of TAP). This structure is much more robust than the company that installed Paul's tanks. We were aware at that time of the problems with the other install and made sure we did the job right. This was done prior to Worldwide Warbirds by an independent 3rd party. It was given the thumbs up by a local DER and has proven itself well.  

    

   

    

The downside of this mod, in my opinion, it that it is very labor intensive to install and cost me about $9k all up 5 years ago. At today's labor rates, it would be even more expensive. However, if you have the desire to carry 74 gallons of fuel, this is your best bet. Even at the ripe young age of 40 I find anything more than 3 hours in the saddle of a CJ an effort in mind over matter control....others will find it a mind over bladder issue....either way it's pain I don't care to willingly endure. Soo....  

    

   

    

2) 60 gallons seems about right. That's roughly 4 hours to empty at cruise settings. 3 hours with adequate reserves, even in the northern US and other parts of the West where options if you run into weather can be quite sparse. It's also good for 3 45 min. formation flights without a refill.   

    

   

    

3) The bladders offer a good increase in fuel capacity, but as Walt mentioned there are possible engineering issues. To date, everything is OK with them, though I have heard of a few torn bladders on installation, etc. The other issue is they are a) labor intensive to install, b) require new fuel level senders, new venting, new fuel gauge, etc., c) require maintenance (inspections), and d) are life limited.  

    

   

    

After looking at the bladder installation, we decided there had to be a better way. The goals of our system are:  

    

   

    

1) Cost effective. The bladders, at approx. $6k installed are a good value. We needed to be in that ballpark.  

    

2) Simple to install. Avoid having to remove the wing from the aircraft or removing the butt rib to install the tank. This saves time and money, and makes it reasonable to produce in kit form.  

    

3) Maintain the integrity of the original system as much as possible. This means same vent system, same senders, same gauge, same installation techniques, etc.  

    

4) Structurally sound and FAA DER approved installation. Clearly the mod needs to be structurally sound, safe under load, and built to last.  

    

   

    

Methodology:  

    

   

    

1) Use former Boeing and current DoD recognized engineers familiar with structure design to bring the concept to life and develop drawings  

    

2) Use highly qualified structural sheet metal mechanics to fabricate tanks and modify the fuel tank bay.  

    

3) Make tank more user friendly with new fuel filler/cap, and quick drain on the bottom.  

    

4) Weld tanks using award winning welder with considerable fuel tank experience.   

    

   

    

   

    

Our first tank will be welded this week and we will begin wing modification. We anticipate having the first tank installed in 3-4 weeks. We will then install these tanks in 3 aircraft, again, with FAA DER approved design, which will allow us to build the installation instructions and sell the tanks in "kit" form.  

    

   

    

Anyone who is interested in this mod for their aircraft please contact me directly. We anticipate having the first set ready for delivery in kit form sometime this summer.  

    

   

    

Thanks!  

    

   

    

Barry  

    

   

    

   

      

Barry Hancock   

Worldwide Warbirds, Inc.  

office (909) 606-4444  

cell (949) 300-5510  

www.worldwidewarbirds.com  

www.cj6.com  

   

Express Mailing address:  

7000 Merrill Ave, B-110, Unit J  

Chino, CA  91710  

   

Regular Mailing address:  

7000 Merrill Ave., Box 91  

Chino, CA  91710  

   

The information contained in this e-mail message is intended only for the personal and confidential use of the designated recipients. If the reader of this message is not an intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any review, use, dissemination, forwarding or copying of this message is strictly prohibited. Please notify us immediately by reply e-mail or telephone, and delete the original message and all attachments from your system. Thank you  

  

       

On Mar 23, 2008, at 11:58 PM, Yak-List Digest Server wrote:  

  



 

   

Time: 10:41:28 AM PST US  

From: "Paul Dumoret" <3bar(at)telus.net (3bar(at)telus.net)>  

Subject: CJ Aux Fuel  

   

On a cautionary note following up on Doug and Walt's comments; my CJ has   

Doug's aux fuel tanks which are great as I did not have the expense of   

install. However, whoever did the install did NOT follow Doug's   

instructions and the result was bowed belly skins, and popped rivets on   

the tank bottoms, Both tanks had to be removed and new ribs installed   

and riveted and welded, and the lower skins replaced along with new   

structure to properly support same. This was discovered and repaired by   

Bill Nicholson at Star Airmotive in Oroville, Wa. The original job was a   

supreme sham and a disgrace to the industry as it was cheap and   

ineffective. The straps used to secure the tanks in the bays was 1/16"   

steel cable which had almost worn through the tanks on three spots. I   

was fortunate not to pop a tank out the bottom during higher "G"   

maneuvers.Be very careful who does your "mod" to ensure it is correct.  

   

Cheers,  

   

Paul Dumoret  

  

   

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       [quote][b]

brian-1927(at)lloyd.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 10:59 am Post subject: CJ Aux Fuel

 	  Quote: 	
		   Even at the ripe young age of 40 I find anything more than 3 hours  

 in the saddle of a CJ an effort in mind over matter  

 control....others will find it a mind over bladder issue....either  

 way it's pain I don't care to willingly endure.  Soo....



 2)  60 gallons seems about right.  That's roughly 4 hours to empty  

 at cruise settings.  3 hours with adequate reserves, even in the  

 northern US and other parts of the West where options if you run  

 into weather can be quite sparse.  It's also good for 3 45 min.  

 formation flights without a refill.


	


Actually, I find the real need for more fuel is to give me flexibility  

about where I stop for fuel on long cross-country flights. A quick  

gander at AirNav will show something like a $2-per-gallon difference  

depending on where you stop. Being able to overfly several expensive  

airports and then land at a field with cheaper gas can make a HUGE  

difference in the cost of cross-country flying.



Case in point, I saved over $500 in fuel costs on a round-trip to the  

other coast last year. That pays for a lot of burgers.



Brian Lloyd                         3191 Western Drive

brianl AT lloyd DOT com             Cameron Park, CA 95682

+1.916.367.2131 (voice)             +1.270.912.0788 (fax)



PGP key ID:          12095C52A32A1B6C

PGP key fingerprint: 3B1D BA11 4913 3254 B6E0  CC09 1209 5C52 A32A 1B6C

brian-1927(at)lloyd.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 11:03 am Post subject: CJ Aux Fuel

On Mar 24, 2008, at 11:25 AM, Gill Gutierrez wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Barry,



 This at best is self serving


	


Why would you say that? We are talking about ways to beef up the  

structure to support additional fuel. Just because Barry sells  

airplanes doesn't mean his engineering data is less useful.



Brian Lloyd                         3191 Western Drive

brianl AT lloyd DOT com             Cameron Park, CA 95682

+1.916.367.2131 (voice)             +1.270.912.0788 (fax)



PGP key ID:          12095C52A32A1B6C

PGP key fingerprint: 3B1D BA11 4913 3254 B6E0  CC09 1209 5C52 A32A 1B6C

Gill.G(at)gpimail.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 1:06 pm Post subject: CJ Aux Fuel

Brian,



I agree we should all attempt to get to the best solution.  I just think we

should use the best information.



The last I saw, Barry had not provided any engineering data.  He did,

however, relate the following misinformation:  "To date, everything is OK

with them, though I have heard of a few torn bladders on installation, etc.

The other issue is they are a) labor intensive to install, b) require new

fuel level senders, new venting, new fuel gauge, etc., c) require

maintenance (inspections), and d) are life limited."  There is no data given

for how long it will take to install Barry's metal tanks so I am unsure what

he means by his reference to bladder installation labor; there has been only

one instance of a bladder puncture and that was a handling issue prior to

installation; fuel level senders indeed are different but were necessary to

provide a more accurate fuel reading in the larger geometry(a change by

design); no fuel gauges have ever been replaced but they could be if you

want to have a fancy digital.  I'm unaware of anyone using other than the

standard CJ gauge; and regarding maintenance and life you just have to look

at Bill Blackwell's stack leaking metal tanks.  Besides bladders like metal

tanks can and do require maintenance.



There are twenty plus CJs using bladders, the oldest is 5 years.  Barry has

yet to build and install his metal tanks.  The CJ bladder system has been

tested to assure that it will withstand not only the g forces but also the

forces resulting from the vents caused by air speed.



Gill

--

pfstelwagon(at)earthlink.
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 3:09 pm Post subject: CJ Aux Fuel

God what a bunch of whiners!



Frank



CJ6A  N23021

---

DANDMAZ(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 6:09 pm Post subject: CJ Aux Fuel

FRANK YOU MUST BE ONE OF THE WHINERS?



Don

---

pfstelwagon(at)earthlink.
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 6:35 pm Post subject: CJ Aux Fuel

NOT HARDLY.  It seems that on the list everybody has to criticize anybody's 

new idea.  If you don't like the new equipment don't buy it, but don't 

complain about.

---

ChangDriver

Joined: 15 Sep 2007
Posts: 266

Posted: Tue Mar 25, 2008 6:46 pm Post subject: Re: CJ Aux Fuel

Gee Wizz Gill.....You really owe Barry an apology for whacking him like you did.  If it weren't for folks like Bill, Barry, Dennis, Jill, Doug, the Coy's, and a few others, we'd all be flying spam cans.  Barry is simply disseminating to the community what he is doing regarding a fuel tank mod for the CJ.  If you want one - buy it.  If not - don't.



As Barry's note said, he will have full engineering drawings when the first set of tanks is done.  He has an FAA DER overseeing the project.  Not necessary, but a wise investment in safety as no DER will sign off a modification that he/she sees as unsafe.



Barry has basically taken the Air Victoria mod (well proven) and asked the question, "how can it be improved upon?"   His goal was to provide the same capacity as bladders but in a metal tank.  CAD/CAM technology has allowed for a volumetric analysis of the tank bay.  So the next question was, "what will the tank look like?"  CAD/CAM helps here too.  Additionally, it really is not rocket science to determine the required burst strength of the supporting straps, over-design them and add an extra strap for good measure.



As for bladders, they do wrinkle, trap water, etc, etc (just read NTSB reports).  They are life limited - just go look at any bladder manufacturer web site.  AND, they do require maintenance - just look at the number of bladder repair companies there are.  Also, you know of one damaged bladder on installation.  So do I and I'm sure they are different CJs.  Take into account all the bladders damaged while being installed in spam cans and I'm sure it is more than one.



Some like bladders.  Some like metal tanks.  Some like 52s.  Some like CJs.



The idea is we can all LEARN a little by keeping an open mind to fuel mods, M-14s replacing Housai's, RAT motors, clipped wings, malcom hoods, rudder pedal mods, fuel injection, Cleveland nose wheels, oil filters, and on and on.  Just keep it civil and don't attack.



Craig

N13472(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Mar 25, 2008 7:11 pm Post subject: CJ Aux Fuel

Gee Wizz Craig "CFI" maybe you should find out who sell the bladder tanks

"GILL". Did not know Barry had a PR dept!

Tom Elliott

CJ-6A NX63727

702-595-2680  



--

ChangDriver

Joined: 15 Sep 2007
Posts: 266

Posted: Wed Mar 26, 2008 7:25 am Post subject: Re: CJ Aux Fuel

Not trying to be a PR department for Barry.  However, since it is my aircraft that these tanks are going in, I have had numerous discussions over a number of months with Barry on the prototypes and the design.  I just like to recognize when folks are providing a good service to the community as do all the folks I listed in my last note.  In addition, having someone act like bladders are a panacea is just not right.



In all honesty, Doug's mod (properly installed!) may be the best fuel mod out there.  However, it is rather costly to install.  The good news is that there are now several options for all of us.



Thanks to everyone who helps us keep these birds flying!!



Craig

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