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Moving rudder pedals forward
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lwinger

Joined: 21 Jun 2006
Posts: 229
Location: Tustin, CA

Posted: Sat Mar 29, 2008 8:11 am Post subject: Moving rudder pedals forward

Because of my height (6'6"), I'm moving my rudder pedals forward.  That involves moving the pedal bearing channel (6-B-8-3) forward 2 inches.  Of course it requires removing the forward flange (down to the radius) where the lower engine mount fitting must now overlap.  This has all been discussed with Roger at ZAC.



My question is about the heel support.  Logic would say that it should be moved as well.  Yes or no?



Thanks.

_________________
Larry Winger
Tustin, CA
Plans building 601XL/650 with Corvair
Installing fuel system
www.mykitlog.com/lwinger

larry(at)macsmachine.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Mar 29, 2008 9:35 am Post subject: Moving rudder pedals forward

Larry,

I'm not sure about the XL, but the heel support is gusseted to the 

vertical sides on the rear face in the HD series.

You might consider making a heel support with a little more depth.

http://www.macsmachine.com/images/largeassembly2/full/rtinfwd.gif



Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com



lwinger wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Because of my height (6'6"), I'm moving my rudder pedals forward.  That involves moving the pedal bearing channel (6-B-8-3) forward 2 inches.  Of course it requires removing the forward flange (down to the radius) where the lower engine mount fitting must now overlap.  This has all been discussed with Roger at ZAC.



 My question is about the heel support.  Logic would say that it should be moved as well.  Yes or no?



 Thanks.



 --------

 Larry Winger

 Tustin, CA

 601XL/Corvair from scratch

 Control surfaces and wings complete.

 Bottom rear fuselage and firewall done

 Working on cabin floor

 www.mykitlog.com/lwinger





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=173430#173430

lwinger

Joined: 21 Jun 2006
Posts: 229
Location: Tustin, CA

Posted: Sat Mar 29, 2008 9:55 am Post subject: Moving rudder pedals forward

Larry,

  

 Good catch.  Yes, as Sabrina just pointed out in a separate posting, there are structural considerations.  I'll be leaving in position as designed.

  

 Thanks.

  

 Larry Winger

 On Sat, Mar 29, 2008 at 10:29 AM, LarryMcFarland <larry(at)macsmachine.com (larry(at)macsmachine.com)> wrote:

 [quote]--> Zenith-List message posted by: LarryMcFarland <larry(at)macsmachine.com (larry(at)macsmachine.com)>

 

Larry,

I'm not sure about the XL, but the heel support is gusseted to the

vertical sides on the rear face in the HD series.

You might consider making a heel support with a little more depth.

http://www.macsmachine.com/images/largeassembly2/full/rtinfwd.gif

 

Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com

  

 

 



[b]

_________________
Larry Winger
Tustin, CA
Plans building 601XL/650 with Corvair
Installing fuel system
www.mykitlog.com/lwinger

lwinger

Joined: 21 Jun 2006
Posts: 229
Location: Tustin, CA

Posted: Sat Mar 29, 2008 10:05 am Post subject: Moving rudder pedals forward

Thanks, Sabrina.  Looking ahead is always a good idea.  I don't want to throw off the side gusset and longerons, so I'll keep the closed cell foam idea in mind as a good solution.

  

 Larry Winger

  [quote][b]

_________________
Larry Winger
Tustin, CA
Plans building 601XL/650 with Corvair
Installing fuel system
www.mykitlog.com/lwinger

lwinger

Joined: 21 Jun 2006
Posts: 229
Location: Tustin, CA

Posted: Sat Mar 29, 2008 10:08 am Post subject: Moving rudder pedals forward

Several on this list have said that moving the rudder pedals forward by 2 inches would still leave room for adequate braking.  Roger at ZAC concurred.  I assumed they were taking into account differential braking during taxi runs as well.

   

 Is there any builder who has moved the pedals forward could comment on their real-world experience with this?  That would be ideal. 

  

 Another way of addressing it is to know how much clearance to the firewall one has in full rudder deflection with full brakes on that side.  If it is less than 2 inches, then I will clearly have to adjust or go back to the standard configuration.

   

 Larry Winger

 601XL/Corvair

 Tustin, CA

 On Sat, Mar 29, 2008 at 10:24 AM, Sabrina <chicago2paris(at)msn.com (chicago2paris(at)msn.com)> wrote:

 [quote]--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Sabrina" <chicago2paris(at)msn.com (chicago2paris(at)msn.com)>

 



So too, leave  enough room for differential breaking during taxi runs.  Although the toe breaks will clear during hard breaking on a landing because the nose wheel is straight, a turn with differential breaking is another matter.  This was something the MISO specifically inspected on my aircraft.   I was surprised that it was an issue the FAA had with many experimental aircraft.

 

[b]

_________________
Larry Winger
Tustin, CA
Plans building 601XL/650 with Corvair
Installing fuel system
www.mykitlog.com/lwinger

rsteele(at)rjsit.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Mar 29, 2008 10:14 am Post subject: Moving rudder pedals forward

I'm not to the fuselage yet, but this definitely something of a  

concern for me.  I just looked at the pictures Sabrina referenced and it

struck me that most of us with longer legs also have longer feet, so  

keeping the heel support as designed might just work out OK.



Ron

On Mar 29, 2008, at 1:24 PM, Sabrina wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 "My question is about the heel support. Logic would say that it  

 should be moved as well. Yes or no?"



 No.   By moving the heel plate 6B8-8 2 inches or 50+ mm forward,  

 6B15-3 would not have 6B8-8 to mount to.    If you then move the  

 longerons the 6B15-3s mount to, you would shorten the 6 other  

 longerons (3 on each side) by about 15 percent and weaken the  

 structure.  Not a good idea.



 CH placed the 355mm distance specified in 6-B-15 there for a reason.



 I used closed cell foam to close the gap like André van den Elsen:



 http://home.tiscali.nl/a.vandenelsen/Cabin%20Floor/index.html



 So too, leave  enough room for differential breaking during taxi  

 runs.  Although the toe breaks will clear during hard breaking on a  

 landing because the nose wheel is straight, a turn with  

 differential breaking is another matter.  This was something the  

 MISO specifically inspected on my aircraft.   I was surprised that  

 it was an issue the FAA had with many experimental aircraft.





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=173448#173448

Jaybannist(at)cs.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Mar 29, 2008 11:17 am Post subject: Moving rudder pedals forward

Larry,

 

 If you plan on putting a closed cell foam board under the heel support, as Sabrina suggests, be VERY careful which foam you choose.  Some of them put off extremely toxic fumes when ignited.

 

 Jay in Dallas      [quote][b]

craig(at)craigandjean.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Mar 29, 2008 12:39 pm Post subject: Moving rudder pedals forward

 	  Quote: 	
		   (And yes, if the canopy is ejected by accident, Zenith says the aircraft

WILL fly without a canopy.)
	




An open-cockpit model certainly does:



http://www.zenithair.com/zodiac/6-photo38.html



The RV-12 prototype has an ejectable canopy. I just wonder how well a plane

flies if the canopy takes out the rudder.



-- Craig





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=173479#173479

Jeyoung65(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Mar 29, 2008 1:25 pm Post subject: Moving rudder pedals forward

I would wonder if the pilot's head will survive and if the eyes could stand  the wind load. Another good reason for a windshield. Jerry DO NOT  ARCHIVE

  

  In a message dated 3/29/2008 5:03:52 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  chicago2paris(at)msn.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  -->    Zenith-List message posted by: "Sabrina"    <chicago2paris(at)msn.com>



"I just wonder how well a plane flies if    the canopy takes out the rudder."



Good point, be prepared to    jump:





Read this topic online    here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=173486#173486





Attachments:    



http://forums.matronics.com//files/chute_128.jpg

	




Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home.

  [quote][b]

jim.lanier(at)charter.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Mar 29, 2008 1:34 pm Post subject: Moving rudder pedals forward

This is actually something I haven't thought about much.  Fortunately, 

there is a rental factory built XL not far from my home. I will have to 

try it out and see if it fits.



Jim



Ronald Steele wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 I'm not to the fuselage yet, but this definitely something of a 

 concern for me.  I just looked at the pictures Sabrina referenced and it

 struck me that most of us with longer legs also have longer feet, so 

 keeping the heel support as designed might just work out OK.



 Ron

 On Mar 29, 2008, at 1:24 PM, Sabrina wrote:

> 

>

> "My question is about the heel support. Logic would say that it 

> should be moved as well. Yes or no?"

>

> No.   By moving the heel plate 6B8-8 2 inches or 50+ mm forward, 

> 6B15-3 would not have 6B8-8 to mount to.    If you then move the 

> longerons the 6B15-3s mount to, you would shorten the 6 other 

> longerons (3 on each side) by about 15 percent and weaken the 

> structure.  Not a good idea.

>

> CH placed the 355mm distance specified in 6-B-15 there for a reason.

>

> I used closed cell foam to close the gap like André van den Elsen:

>

> http://home.tiscali.nl/a.vandenelsen/Cabin%20Floor/index.html

>

> So too, leave  enough room for differential breaking during taxi 

> runs.  Although the toe breaks will clear during hard breaking on a 

> landing because the nose wheel is straight, a turn with differential 

> breaking is another matter.  This was something the MISO specifically 

> inspected on my aircraft.   I was surprised that it was an issue the 

> FAA had with many experimental aircraft.

>

>

> Read this topic online here:

>

> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=173448#173448

>

leo(at)zuehlfield.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Mar 29, 2008 2:08 pm Post subject: Moving rudder pedals forward

Been there done that in a 601HDS.  Canopy lost at 115 mph on a down wind 

leg - please do not ask why.  No damage to AC or pilot.  Slowed to 80 

mph, proceeded to a normal landing.



Also had moved the rudder pedals forward the max recommended by ZAC.  

Pedal travel OK and heel rest a non issue.



-- 

Leo Gates

N601Z - CH601hds TDO

Rotax 912UL



Sabrina wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 "I just wonder how well a plane flies if the canopy takes out the rudder."

Jaybannist(at)cs.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Mar 29, 2008 2:46 pm Post subject: Moving rudder pedals forward

This is the primary reason military pilots wear helmets with face shields.



Jay in Dallas

"Sabrina" <chicago2paris(at)msn.com> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  



"I would wonder if the pilot's head will survive and if the eyes could stand the wind load."   



Point well taken:





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=173499#173499





Attachments: 



http://forums.matronics.com//files/placard_167.jpg

amyvega2005(at)earthlink.
Guest

Posted: Sat Mar 29, 2008 4:23 pm Post subject: Moving rudder pedals forward

sit in the plane and place your feet comfortably on the pedals where they feel good.  get out of the plane and measure it.  then cut the steering rods to reflect that position.  then attached breaks.  thats it.

mine are 2o inches from spar to pedal.

Juan



--

Tim Juhl

Joined: 21 Mar 2006
Posts: 488
Location: "Thumb" of Michigan

Posted: Sat Mar 29, 2008 5:12 pm Post subject: Re: Moving rudder pedals forward

I have a pre-drilled cabin floor.  I ended up moving the rudder pedal channel about 35 mm forward - that way I can take advantage of some of the existing holes (I filled the unused ones with A3 rivets.)   When I moved the channel I left a row of unused rivet holes so I slightly straightened a piece of surplus Z angle and installed it.  My reasoning is that I would (a) fill the holes and (b) add a little additional strength to the cabin floor. See pix.



Remember, you can also gain some room by adjusting the length of the steering rods and thus the angle of the rudder pedals.



Tim

rudder_pedal_ch.jpg

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_________________
______________
CFII
Champ L16A flying
Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A
Almost done! It'll fly in spring!

grant.corriveau(at)TELUS.
Guest

Posted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 8:39 am Post subject: Moving rudder pedals forward

I built the HDS with the longer cabin mod., moved my rudder pedals as  

far forward as possible (while maintaining differential braking), and  

set the seat pan as low as it would go yet clear the fuselage bottom.



I also modified my brake cylinder installations to base them on the  

floor rather than on the rudder pedal arms as they originally were.  

The beauty of that system is it not only removes un-needed stress on  

the rudder pedal tubes, but it creates a better brake pedal  

geometry.  When a foot is at full rudder (forward position), the top  

of the brake pedal rotates to a more vertical position, making  

differential braking easier to add, and taking less pedal movement  

towards the firewall.



I didn't move the heel support and haven't noticed a problem with my  

size 12s  ... your situation may vary ....  Many HD/HDS builders  

have added some strengthening along the baggage shelf edge because  

that is a common place that was getting damaged from inadvertant  

loads being placed there .. (i.e. it's a natural place to grab while  

getting in and out...)



For XL builders I think all these mods are incorporated into that  

aircraft...?



Grant Corriveau

C-GHTF 601HDS

CAM100

lwinger

Joined: 21 Jun 2006
Posts: 229
Location: Tustin, CA

Posted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 8:53 am Post subject: Re: Moving rudder pedals forward

Great responses!



Here was my solution.  Because I wanted to retain the opportunity to re-rig the plane for a "normal sized" pilot, I remade my cabin floor and pedal bearing channel.  I added 40mm to the front edge of the channel (195mm instead of 155mm) and added an additional 3/16" hole 33mm forward of the existing central pedal bearing holes to allow forward adjustment by 1.3 inches.  Pictures attached.  No change to the heel support.



Thanks to everyone for the helpful responses.  This list really saved the day.

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_________________
Larry Winger
Tustin, CA
Plans building 601XL/650 with Corvair
Installing fuel system
www.mykitlog.com/lwinger

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