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msm_9949(at)yahoo.com
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 Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2006 1:22 pm Post subject: 582 questions |
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List:
I've been trying to get both the full power and idle rpm's down on my 582. Repitched the prop and fiddled with the idle adjustments (twin Bing 54s) today with mixed results. Idle and WOT remain a bit high (2200, 6500 static, respectively) though I was pleased that EGTs stayed where they should be.
Of major concern, however, was a sudden and unprecedented overrev at full power. It was tooting along fine, wide open at 6500 when suddenly it jumped, nearly pinning the indicator in the red. I cut back power immediately and it continued to run well at lower power settings. For a change, I was glad the fox was tied to the ground.
After I pulled the cowlings off, I noticed a good bit of oily black residue that appeared to have blown out of the first exhaust joint, probably out of the forward cylinder. Plugs looked ok though.
Any thoughts on the overrev situation? How many CCW turns from dead closed should the idle air and adjustment screws be set to ge me near 1800 rpm at idle?
Marco Menezes
Model 2 582 N99KX
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aerocontrols(at)clearwave
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| Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2006 5:01 pm Post subject: 582 questions |
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Marco,
One of our customers had that happen on take off (sudden over-revving).. He
had lots of coolant leaking from the first exhaust joint and blowing back
onto the engine. Seeing as we had recently serviced this engine, we had him
return it to us (at our expense)so we could do an examination on the
engine. Our initial
thought was that there was a problem with the crankcase halves sealing.
Upon disassembly, there was no signs of a crankcase mating surface leak and
the seals were all in good shape. Our final determination was that as one
of the water pump bolts goes directly into the pto crankcase the engione had
ingested coolant from this location. . This bolt is assembled using
liberal quantieies of Loctite 518 sealant on the threads. We feel that
there was not enough Loctite placed on the threads and coolant was allowed
to pass from the water pump into the cylinder/. It does not take much
coolant to create extra hp (remember the 1980's and water injection on hot
rod engines?). We re-sealed the engine and used lots of loctite on the
water pump bolts and all is now well. The water pump housings are
notorious for warping because of over tightning. This can add to the
problem is the mating surface lacks integrety.
The idle air scres does not control the idle speed. It should be set to 1
turn out from closed. The large idle screws on the side of the engine
should be initially set at 2.5 turns in from initial contact with the slide.
You can adjust the idle up and down from there done in 1/4 turn increments).
Whatever you do to one carb need to be done to the other.
I'm not 100% sure your over-revving was caused by ingestion of coolant, but
it sure sounds similar.
Hope this helps
Bob Robertson
Light Engine Services Ltd.
Rotax Service Center
Aero Control Enterprises, Inc.
St. Albert, Ab. T8N 1M8
Ph: (Tech Support) 1-780-418-4164
Ph: (Order Line) 1-866-418-4164 (TOLL FREE)
www.rtx-av-engines.ca
www.aerocontrols.net
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msm_9949(at)yahoo.com
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| Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2006 6:45 pm Post subject: 582 questions |
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Thanks Bob, i'll try removing and resealing the water pump bolts. Manual seems to recommend 221/222 on those bolts. So should I use 518 only on the one that penetrates the pto unit? Also, do you mean Loctite 515? I can't seem to locate 518 anywhere. Finally, long as i'm detorquing those pump bolts, should I replace the pump gasket at the same time? I gotta admit that over-reving freaked me out. I'm glad it wasn't on takeoff.
Marco
Bob Robertson <aerocontrols(at)clearwave.ca> wrote:
Marco,
One of our customers had that happen on take off (sudden over-revving).. He
had lots of coolant leaking from the first exhaust joint and blowing back
onto the engine. Seeing as we had recently serviced this engine, we had him
return it to us (at our expense)so we could do an examination on the
engine. Our initial
thought was that there was a problem with the crankcase halves sealing.
Upon disassembly, there was no signs of a crankcase mating surface leak and
the seals were all in good shape. Our final determination was that as one
of the water pump bolts goes directly into the pto crankcase the engione had
ingested coolant from this location. . This bolt is assembled using
liberal quantieies of Loctite 518 sealant on the threads. We feel that
there was not enough Loctite placed on the threads and coolant was allowed
to pass from the water pump into the cylinder/. It does not take much
coolant to create extra hp (remember the 1980's and water injection on hot
rod engines?). We re-sealed the engine and used lots of loctite on the
water pump bolts and all is now well. The water pump housings are
notorious for warping because of over tightning. This can add to the
problem is the mating surface lacks integrety.
The idle air scres does not control the idle speed. It should be set to 1
turn out from closed. The large idle screws on the side of the engine
should be initially set at 2.5 turns in from initial contact with the slide.
You can adjust the idle up and down from there done in 1/4 turn increments).
Whatever you do to one carb need to be done to the other.
I'm not 100% sure your over-revving was caused by ingestion of coolant, but
it sure sounds similar.
Hope this helps
Bob Robertson
Light Engine Services Ltd.
Rotax Service Center
Aero Control Enterprises, Inc.
St. Albert, Ab. T8N 1M8
Ph: (Tech Support) 1-780-418-4164
Ph: (Order Line) 1-866-418-4164 (TOLL FREE)
www.rtx-av-engines.ca
www.aerocontrols.net
---
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aerocon1(at)telusplanet.n
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2006 8:57 pm Post subject: 582 questions |
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Marco,
515 and 518 are pretty much interchangeable. Both are anerobic just that 515
sets up quicker (be liberal with the application). The use of 222 on the
other bolts is a good idea.
I'd remove the water pump cover and inspect to see if you can see and path
that the coolant could have traveled. While you have the cover off, it would
be ideal to re-surface the mating surface. Place a sheet of fine emery paper
on a piece of plate or flat glass and move the cover over this in a figure
eight motion. Check to see if there are any high sports on the cover mating
surface. Only take enough off to remove any high spots and level the surface.
If too much is removed the bolt that goes into the crankcase could jam up
against the crankshaft.
Quoting Marco Menezes <msm_9949(at)yahoo.com>:
[quote]
Thanks Bob, i'll try removing and resealing the water pump bolts. Manual
seems to recommend 221/222 on those bolts. So should I use 518 only on the
one that penetrates the pto unit? Also, do you mean Loctite 515? I can't seem
to locate 518 anywhere. Finally, long as i'm detorquing those pump bolts,
should I replace the pump gasket at the same time? I gotta admit that
over-reving freaked me out. I'm glad it wasn't on takeoff.
Marco
Bob Robertson <aerocontrols(at)clearwave.ca> wrote:
Marco,
One of our customers had that happen on take off (sudden over-revving).. He
had lots of coolant leaking from the first exhaust joint and blowing back
onto the engine. Seeing as we had recently serviced this engine, we had him
return it to us (at our expense)so we could do an examination on the
engine. Our initial
thought was that there was a problem with the crankcase halves sealing.
Upon disassembly, there was no signs of a crankcase mating surface leak and
the seals were all in good shape. Our final determination was that as one
of the water pump bolts goes directly into the pto crankcase the engione had
ingested coolant from this location. . This bolt is assembled using
liberal quantieies of Loctite 518 sealant on the threads. We feel that
there was not enough Loctite placed on the threads and coolant was allowed
to pass from the water pump into the cylinder/. It does not take much
coolant to create extra hp (remember the 1980's and water injection on hot
rod engines?). We re-sealed the engine and used lots of loctite on the
water pump bolts and all is now well. The water pump housings are
notorious for warping because of over tightning. This can add to the
problem is the mating surface lacks integrety.
The idle air scres does not control the idle speed. It should be set to 1
turn out from closed. The large idle screws on the side of the engine
should be initially set at 2.5 turns in from initial contact with the slide.
You can adjust the idle up and down from there done in 1/4 turn increments).
Whatever you do to one carb need to be done to the other.
I'm not 100% sure your over-revving was caused by ingestion of coolant, but
it sure sounds similar.
Hope this helps
Bob Robertson
Light Engine Services Ltd.
Rotax Service Center
Aero Control Enterprises, Inc.
St. Albert, Ab. T8N 1M8
Ph: (Tech Support) 1-780-418-4164
Ph: (Order Line) 1-866-418-4164 (TOLL FREE)
www.rtx-av-engines.ca
www.aerocontrols.net
---
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dosmythe(at)cox.net
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Mar 06, 2006 5:27 am Post subject: 582 questions |
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Marco,
I've been off the list forever due to a major computer virus but all
fixed now....One thing to keep in the front of your mind on the overrev. If
you have the "C" drive, you might have the problem of the drive slipping. I
fought this problem once even going through an engine overhaul trying to
find the culprit. What you have in the C box is a large nut and cone that
ties everything together. This cone is a slip fit and only held in position
by a large nut and compression. There is a Rotax bulletin out that calls
for disassembly of the box, degreasing and reassembly with a certain type
locktite on the cone/shaft. Then put the nut back on with a higher
specified torque. I don't have the particulars.
What happened in my case was a "surging" or overreving of the RPM's at
higher speeds. I think the cone in the box would slip, overheat and then
seize again so, the problem appeared to be intermittent. With time, the
problem got worse. The fix is fairly straight forward and easy. My hardest
problem was finding a torque wrench that would go up to 250 "FOOT" lbs on
the nut.
Don Smythe
| Quote: | Any thoughts on the overrev situation? How many CCW turns from dead
closed should the idle air and adjustment screws be set to ge me near 1800
rpm at idle?
Marco Menezes
|
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lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Mar 06, 2006 7:02 am Post subject: 582 questions |
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Don, glad to hear it was a visus that kept you away. You have tons of
knowledge and we need you.
Lowell
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msm_9949(at)yahoo.com
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Mar 06, 2006 7:12 am Post subject: 582 questions |
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Thanks Don. I'm gonna try Bob Roberstson's "fix" first. If that doesn't do it, you've given me another possibility.
do not archive
Don Smythe <dosmythe(at)cox.net> wrote:
Marco,
I've been off the list forever due to a major computer virus but all
fixed now....One thing to keep in the front of your mind on the overrev. If
you have the "C" drive, you might have the problem of the drive slipping. I
fought this problem once even going through an engine overhaul trying to
find the culprit. What you have in the C box is a large nut and cone that
ties everything together. This cone is a slip fit and only held in position
by a large nut and compression. There is a Rotax bulletin out that calls
for disassembly of the box, degreasing and reassembly with a certain type
locktite on the cone/shaft. Then put the nut back on with a higher
specified torque. I don't have the particulars.
What happened in my case was a "surging" or overreving of the RPM's at
higher speeds. I think the cone in the box would slip, overheat and then
seize again so, the problem appeared to be intermittent. With time, the
problem got worse. The fix is fairly straight forward and easy. My hardest
problem was finding a torque wrench that would go up to 250 "FOOT" lbs on
the nut.
Don Smythe
| Quote: | Any thoughts on the overrev situation? How many CCW turns from dead
closed should the idle air and adjustment screws be set to ge me near 1800
rpm at idle?
Marco Menezes
|
Marco Menezes
Model 2 582 N99KX
---------------------------------
Use Photomail to share photos without annoying attachments.
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dosmythe(at)cox.net
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Mar 06, 2006 8:12 am Post subject: 582 questions |
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Sounds good but don't let the possibility of a slipping gear box get too far
back in your memory. I spent weeks and over $2500. on a $2.00 fix. The
slipping "C" box is a known problem as the Rotax Bulletin points out. I
wore the list out with my "surging" RPM problems. I think Bruce Harrington
hit on the box early but I ignored his valuable advice. Finally when I
called Lockwood to describe my situation I wasn't half finished when he
said, "YOUR GEARBOX IS SLIPPING! Actually, I managed to use the same gasket
so the cost of repair wasn't even $2.00.
Don Smythe
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