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Aerolitellc(at)aol.com
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 Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 10:10 am Post subject: Zenith Builders Analysis Group -- "I'm in" responders -- |
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I agree... From those pics the only change I am making on the flaps and ailerons is to replace the first 6 inboard and outboard pull rivets with solid rivets in the hinges. The pic of the hinge kinda freaks me out with all the holes and no sign of a rivet anywhere. I figure if put solid rivets in the first 6 holes it might stop it from pulling out the pull rivets that I will be using in the center should flutter be the smoking gun.
| Quote: | It seems to me that when the photographs of the Yuba City XL were released, it resulted in a lot of higher quality brainstorming than what we'd had in the past, when all we had to go on was NTSB text, speculation, and rumors.
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Terry Phillips
Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 346
Location: Corvallis, MT
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| Posted: Sat May 10, 2008 4:54 pm Post subject: Zenith Builders Analysis Group -- "I'm in" responders -- |
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Steve
You raise good questions. I'll try to give you my answers, as best I can. However, every member of the group would have their own answer.
At 03:29 PM 5/10/2008 -0700, dr_steve_adams wrote:
| Quote: | | Since so many are wildly speculating about the cause of the accidents, bear with me while I wildly speculate about what your expert will find. I understand everyones desire for more information. but have any of you thought what you will do with the information. |
I have. Just what I do will depend a lot on what information is developed. And I cannot answer in more detail until that information is available to me.
| Quote: | | After CH has reviewed the design who knows how many times, ZAC says "outside" experts have looked at the design, and now you are having another person look at the design. First, I think the likelihood of your expert finding a "smoking gun" is highly unlikely. More likely he will find areas that he might do something differently, just look at all the different aircraft out there and how many different ways designers have chosen to solve the same problems. One way of doing it is not patently better than another way in many cases. So what do you intend to do with your information? Are you going to modify your planes based upon the opinion of someone who has never designed or built an aircraft? |
As I said above, it depends on what he finds. If he finds, e.g., that a wing locker significantly weakens the wing structure, then I will not install the wing lockers that I bought and paid for, etc. Fine. I won't have that storage space, but my stress will be reduced. CH has assured us that design is sound. CH has also said that he would have an outside engineer evaluate the results of last year's static tests. But when I asked ZAC for the opportunity to review the outside engineer's report, ZAC never responded. In an information vacuum, I hope that our own independent engineering evaluation will be more valuable to me than an evaluation which I am not permitted to review.
| Quote: | Is he even going to take th!
e liability and make recommendations on how to improve the design, or is he just going to tell you that x is a potential problem? |
If you read the statement of work you will find that the first step is an analysis of the wing structure to determine whether it can accommodate the design loads of ±6G. I expect that he will find that the structure can accommodate the design loads. My hope is that he will be able to look at other loads, e.g., the torsion on the wing that flap extension would produce. I guess, if I knew the answers now, I wouldn't want to pay someone $300 of my own cash to do the analysis. However, I am a chemical engineer. I haven't worked a structural analysis problem since I was an undergraduate. And, one of the reasons I am a chemical engineer is that I wasn't very good at structures. So, I prefer to pay someone who is better at structures than I am.
Also, the statement of work includes options. Things that can be looked at if there is funding available, and if it looks important. Hopefully, we will be able to raise enough money to fund the flutter analysis. I would really like to see Mark look at some of the other optional items. Ultimately, if any group member decides that he personally must have a particular optional analysis done, the group would be happy to funnel that member's extra payment to Mark so that the particular analysis gets done.
| Quote: | | What if he says it's a sound design? Are you going to jump back into building with both feet, finally content that the 601xl is safe, |
Content that it safe? I think that would fly in the face of the NTSB final report on the Oakdale accident. But, I think that I would be willing to proceed. Right now, I'm like Michael, the fun has gone out of it. Call me a coward. Fine. For me this analysis is an attempt to reclaim my investment of time and treasure. There is no guarantee of success. I think that every group member is aware of that. But, at least we are working together trying to find an answer to the question: Will I be safe flying my 601XL?
| Quote: | | or will that open up another wave of even wilder speculation of some strange phenomenon that can't be tested or identified, but occurs under some unknown circumstances? |
I can seldom predict accurately what I'm going to do tomorrow, much less what others might do 3 months from now.
| Quote: | | I think you need to ask yourselves these questions, and tailor your investigation accordingly, or you will likely find that you spent a lot of time, money, and effort to further confuse yourselves. |
You are right about the time. I'd be embarrassed to tell you how much time I have devoted to this effort, already, and we're barely started. But, I'm committed to spending whatever time it takes to do a creditable job of managing what is essentially an R&D contract. I do have some experience on both sides of the R&D fence. If I can get by for $300 and change, I'll feel like I got a bargain. That is ~0.5% of what I expect to spend on the completed airplane. But, unless I get some answers, it's possible that I'll never complete my 601XL. So, I look at the $300 as a small investment to try to salvage the ~$40,000 I've already spent. I hope we'll get some answers.
But you are right--there is no guarantee.
Terry
Terry Phillips
ttp44~at~rkymtn.net
Corvallis MT
601XL/Jab 3300 s .. l .. o .. o .. w build kit - Tail, flaps, & ailerons are done; working on the wings
http://www.mykitlog.com/N47TP/ [quote][b]
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_________________
Terry Phillips
Corvallis, MT
ttp44<at>rkymtn.net
Zenith 601XL/Jab 3300 slow build kit - Tail feathers done; working on the wings. |
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