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Terry Phillips

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 346
Location: Corvallis, MT

Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 7:19 am Post subject: Zenith Builders Analysis Group -- "I'm in" responders --

At 06:24 AM 5/9/2008 -0700, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Purely out of curiosity how are you going to handle this part?



 

 7. I would rely on you to provide sources for relevant accident information. 	




 Very good question, Gig



 The answer is that I'm going to do the best I can, and try to get help from other group members, if possible. So, here goes ...



 The unfortunate part is, that as far as I'm aware, neither the NTSB nor ZAC have made available what I would consider important information, e.g., what options were installed in the airplanes that lost wings. The NTSB final report is available on the Oakdale crash. My plan is to put in a couple of days trying to gather whatever information I can find, mostly over the Internet, and send that to Mark. In addition, on 4/5/08 I posted a letter to Sebastien Heintz, President, ZAC, to make him aware of the analysis that we hope to begin soon, and to invite ZAC's participation at whatever level they would like. I chose snail mail because in my experience ZAC's response to email and website inquiries has been inconsistent (1 response from 3 or 4 messages). Obviously, there hasn't been time yet for a response from Mr. Heintz to my letter. I'm hoping that ZAC will respond, and positively. I'm not optimistic, however. 



 I believe that the following information would be important, and I would greatly appreciate help from Zenith-Listers in these areas  The actual structural differences between the European versions involved in the UK and Barcelona accidents and the US versions. I.e., something more detailed than "The Czech-built Zodiac XL (by Czech Aircraft Works) was re-designed and built lighter than its U.S. counterpart to meet European ultralight rules." 
Links to any information--websites, whatever, that would identify the options built into the downed planes. 
Links to any photos, video, written documents, whatever, that describe the wing failures as observed from the ground. 
Ditto for the failed components after an accident. 
Definite information regarding weather conditions in the areas where the accidents occurred. 
Definitive information, if available, that the Australian accident was caused by a bird strike. The only bird strike evidence that I recall is that fragments of the canopy were found at some distance from the impact point. However, distant canopy fragments in another accident apparently resulted from a wing impacting the canopy. I do recall posts saying that the wings were still attached to the Australian aircraft when it was located.  If Zenith-Listers could email links to any information they think might be helpful to me, off line, I will collect the links into a package, make an effort to organize them, and send them on to Mark. 



 I would like to do better. I would appreciate any ideas on gathering useful information.



 Terry



 

 

 Terry Phillips

 ttp44~at~rkymtn.net

 Corvallis MT

 601XL/Jab 3300 s .. l .. o .. o .. w build kit - Tail, flaps, & ailerons are done; working on the wings

 http://www.mykitlog.com/N47TP/     [quote][b]

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_________________
Terry Phillips
Corvallis, MT
ttp44<at>rkymtn.net
Zenith 601XL/Jab 3300 slow build kit - Tail feathers done; working on the wings.

swater6

Joined: 16 Dec 2006
Posts: 52
Location: Minnesota-KMIC/KANE

Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 8:57 am Post subject: Re: Zenith Builders Analysis Group --

Terry,

You can get a lot of information from the NTSB including any photographs or video that was entered as exhibits, at least for cases that are closed with a probable cause.  



Click the "Records Management Division" link at the top of the NTSB report when viewing on the web.  Here is the link to the Oakdale accident:   http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20060217X00209&key=1.

The link will take you to page that explains how to order these things if you are a fee exempt entity.  Click the "contractor" link at the bottom of this section that explains that you must purchase from a third party if you are not exempt. That will take you to the GMI (General Microfilm Inc.) page where you can request information and pictures that are available.



I submitted a request a few months ago and after a few weeks got a reply with the number of photographs available and the cost for each. That e-mail is on another computer and I'll forward that to you tonight.  As I recall, there were about 9 wreckage photos available. I didn't follow up because I wouldn't know what to make of them but they may prove useful for your outside expert.

Scott

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_________________
601 XL kit N596SW reserved
Tail, control surfaces and both wings complete. Now working on fuselage

www.scottwaters.com

stshuck2(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 9:26 am Post subject: Zenith Builders Analysis Group -- "I'm in" responders --

Terry will you keep us posted as far as the amount of response you receive.

  My check is in the mail.

   

  



Terry Phillips <ttp44(at)rkymtn.net> wrote:

  [quote]At 06:24 AM 5/9/2008 -0700, you wrote:

   	  Quote: 	
		  Purely out of curiosity how are you going to handle this part?

7. I would rely on you to provide sources for relevant accident information. 	




Very good question, Gig



The answer is that I'm going to do the best I can, and try to get help from other group members, if possible. So, here goes ...



The unfortunate part is, that as far as I'm aware, neither the NTSB nor ZAC have made available what I would consider important information, e.g., what options were installed in the airplanes that lost wings. The NTSB final report is  available on the Oakdale crash. My plan is to put in a couple of days trying to gather whatever information I can find, mostly over the Internet, and send that to Mark. In addition, on 4/5/08 I posted a letter to Sebastien Heintz, President, ZAC, to make him aware of the analysis that we hope to begin soon, and to invite ZAC's participation at whatever level they would like. I chose snail mail because in my experience ZAC's response to email and website inquiries has been inconsistent (1 response from 3 or 4 messages). Obviously, there hasn't been time yet for a response from Mr. Heintz to my letter. I'm hoping that ZAC will respond, and positively. I'm not optimistic, however. 



I believe that the following information would be important, and I would greatly appreciate help from Zenith-Listers in these areas   [list]  [*]The actual structural differences between the European versions involved in the UK and Barcelona accidents and the US versions. I.e., something more  detailed than "The Czech-built Zodiac XL (by Czech Aircraft Works) was re-designed and built lighter than its U.S. counterpart to meet European ultralight rules."   [*]Links to any information--websites, whatever, that would identify the options built into the downed planes.   [*]Links to any photos, video, written documents, whatever, that describe the wing failures as observed from the ground.   [*]Ditto for the failed components after an accident.   [*]Definite information regarding weather conditions in the areas where the accidents occurred.   [*]Definitive information, if available, that the Australian accident was caused by a bird strike. The only bird strike evidence that I recall is that fragments of the canopy were found at some distance from the impact point. However, distant canopy fragments in another accident apparently resulted from a wing impacting the canopy. I do recall posts saying that the wings were still attached to the Australian aircraft when          Be a better friend, newshound, and   [quote][b]

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PatrickW

Joined: 27 Oct 2006
Posts: 380
Location: Fort Worth, Texas

Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 9:38 am Post subject: Re: Zenith Builders Analysis Group --

 	  swater6 wrote: 	
		  You can get a lot of information from the NTSB including any photographs or video 	


I wonder if such photographs and info could be collected and stored on a web page someplace, accessible to all of us builders...?



It seems to me that when the photographs of the Yuba City XL were released, it resulted in a lot of higher quality brainstorming than what we'd had in the past, when all we had to go on was NTSB text, speculation, and rumors.



I think that an actual XL builder could get more relevant info out of a single good photograph than he could out of all the NTSB XL reports combined...



- Pat

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Terry Phillips

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 346
Location: Corvallis, MT

Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 9:50 am Post subject: Zenith Builders Analysis Group -- "I'm in" responders --

Thanks, Scott. I really appreciate your input. This group is great!



I'll check this out. Buying some of these photos may turn out to be a high 

priority use for some of the group's resources, assuming we have any funds 

above the minimum for the basic analysis.



Terry



At 09:57 AM 5/9/2008 -0700, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  Terry,

You can get a lot of information from the NTSB including any photographs 

or video that was entered as exhibits, at least for cases that are closed 

with a probable cause.



Click the "Records Management Division" link at the top of the NTSB report 

when viewing on the web.  Here is the link to the Oakdale 

accident:   http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id 060217X00209&key=1.

The link will take you to page that explains how to order these things if 

you are a fee exempt entity.  Click the "contractor" link at the bottom of 

this section that explains that you must purchase from a third party if 

you are not exempt. That will take you to the GMI (General Microfilm Inc.) 

page where you can request information and pictures that are available.



I submitted a request a few months ago and after a few weeks got a reply 

with the number of photographs available and the cost for each. That 

e-mail is on another computer and I'll forward that to you tonight.  As I 

recall, there were about 9 wreckage photos available. I didn't follow up 

because I wouldn't know what to make of them but they may prove useful for 

your outside expert.

Scott


	




Terry Phillips

ttp44~at~rkymtn.net

Corvallis MT

601XL/Jab 3300 s .. l .. o .. o .. w build kit - Tail, flaps, & ailerons 

are done; working on the wings

http://www.mykitlog.com/N47TP/

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_________________
Terry Phillips
Corvallis, MT
ttp44<at>rkymtn.net
Zenith 601XL/Jab 3300 slow build kit - Tail feathers done; working on the wings.

swater6

Joined: 16 Dec 2006
Posts: 52
Location: Minnesota-KMIC/KANE

Posted: Sat May 10, 2008 4:22 am Post subject: Re: Zenith Builders Analysis Group --

Attached is the e-mail response I received from General Microfilm. 

I'm sure if you give them a call, you can order the pictures.  Looks like they have 17 pictures and not sure if they offer digital format too.

Scott



 	  Quote: 	
		  Hello,

The NTSB aviation accident report in Modesto, California which happened on 02/08/06 that you inquired about is available. The cost is $71.20 for the report, there are 17 (8x10") color photographs which are $6.00 each (total for photos $102.00) and if you need these documents blue ribbon certified for court, there is an additional cost of $20.00 for the certification.

 

If you would like to purchase these documents and or the photographs, you may either call with a Visa or Master Card number or send a check for payment.

 

Thank you,

Karen Remaley

GENERAL MICROFILM INC

632 Files Cross Road

Martinsburg, WV 25404

(304) 267-5830 phone

(304) 264-0862 fax

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_________________
601 XL kit N596SW reserved
Tail, control surfaces and both wings complete. Now working on fuselage

www.scottwaters.com

steveadams

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 191

Posted: Sat May 10, 2008 2:29 pm Post subject: Re: Zenith Builders Analysis Group --

Since so many are wildly speculating about the cause of the accidents, bear with me while I wildly speculate about what your expert will find. I understand everyones desire for more information. but have any of you thought what you will do with the information. After CH has reviewed the design who knows how many times, ZAC says "outside" experts have looked at the design, and now you are having another person look at the design. First, I think the likelihood of your expert finding a "smoking gun" is highly unlikely. More likely he will find areas that he might do something differently, just look at all the different aircraft out there and how many different ways designers have chosen to solve the same problems. One way of doing it is not patently better than another way in many cases. So what do you intend to do with your information? Are you going to modify your planes based upon the opinion of someone who has never designed or built an aircraft? Is he even going to take the liability and make recommendations on how to improve the design, or is he just going to tell you that x is a potential problem leaving you to make up your own fix?  What if he says it's a sound design? Are you going to jump back into building with both feet, finally content that the 601xl is safe, or will that open up another wave of even wilder speculation of some strange phenomenon that can't be tested or identified, but occurs under some unknown circumstances? I think you need to ask yourselves these questions, and tailor your investigation accordingly, or you will likely find that you spent a lot of time, money,  and effort to further confuse yourselves.

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Ron Lendon

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 685
Location: Clinton Twp., MI

Posted: Sat May 10, 2008 8:11 pm Post subject: Re: Zenith Builders Analysis Group --

Well said Steve.  If I got that worked up over this thing I would find another design to build.



do not archive

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_________________
Ron Lendon
WW Corvair with Roy's Garage 5th bearing
CH 601 XLB
N601LT - Flying
http://www.mykitlog.com/rlendon
Corvair Engine Prints:
https://sites.google.com/site/corvairenginedata/

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