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europa(at)pstewart.f2s.co
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 Posted: Mon May 26, 2008 12:59 pm Post subject: tourque tube troubles |
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Anyone had TP5 disbond from the tail plane root rib? If so I'd like
to pick your brains.
Regards
Paul
G-GIDY
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kheindl(at)msn.com
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| Posted: Mon May 26, 2008 2:27 pm Post subject: tourque tube troubles |
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Paul,
Yes, both disbonded from trailering.
I simply bonded them in again with redux, making sure that there was enough of a gap all around for the adhesive to go on all sufaces. I also made a floxed ring on the inside of the rib. Mounted the tailplanes just far enough for the t.t. to go into the TP6.
Made sure that no redux would touch the t.t. while curing.
Years later, with the Mod 73 fiasco, I removed the TP5's with heat and replaced them with long TP5's
that reach up to the TP6.
Karl
<html><div></div></html>
| Quote: | To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
From: europa(at)pstewart.f2s.com
Subject: tourque tube troubles
Date: Mon, 26 May 2008 21:59:08 +0100
--> Europa-List message posted by: Paul Stewart <europa(at)pstewart.f2s.com>
Anyone had TP5 disbond from the tail plane root rib? If so I'd like
to pick your brains.
Regards
Paul
G-GIDY
======================
=================
|
[quote][b]
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rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.n
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| Posted: Mon May 26, 2008 6:14 pm Post subject: tourque tube troubles |
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Hi Paul
"Anyone had TP5 disbond from the tail plane root rib? If so I'd like
| Quote: | to pick your brains."
|
My partner and his dad picked up our kit in Florida and trucked it back to
New York. The first time I saw kit, the first thing I did was begin to
fool with tailplanes. It took 45 minutes to have a TP5 debonded!
Tailplanes were "accelerated". Here is how we dealt with:
http://www.europaowners.org/modules.php?set_albumName=album220&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php
We did send back and repair was putting a fillet of flox from outside
(April 2003). Unacceptable. Too were worries that the outer bushings was
bonded as well as the inners which would probably fail right after final
paint applied.
"When" our inner and outer bushings become debonded, there will be a lot
of aeroplane coming with them.
Note rowing skull CF oars for guide while assembling. I like the Mod. of
wrapping fiberglass around both bushings on a new build, but not too easy
to do on a completed tailplane. I would rather see the first layer of BID
using redux and peelply, then when cured use Aeropoxy/BID to complete.
Redux holds better to metals and its slight flexibility prevents as harsh
a point loading. Still a fine mod because upon assembly it prevents
tremendous loads being exerted on inner bushing until torque tube enters
the outer bushing. I do understand the BID encapsulates the bushings,
still first layer of Redux is better IMHO.
Ron Parigoris
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europa(at)pstewart.f2s.co
Guest
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| Posted: Tue May 27, 2008 8:58 am Post subject: tourque tube troubles |
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Karl
Thanks for the information. Can you tell me where you got suitable material to make a 'full length' TP5? or what sort of material and size it was?
Regards
Paul
G-GIDY
On 26 May 2008, at 23:23, Karl Heindl wrote:
| Quote: |
Paul,
Yes, both disbonded from trailering.
I simply bonded them in again with redux, making sure that there was enough of a gap all around for the adhesive to go on all sufaces. I also made a floxed ring on the inside of the rib. Mounted the tailplanes just far enough for the t.t. to go into the TP6.
Made sure that no redux would touch the t.t. while curing.
Years later, with the Mod 73 fiasco, I removed the TP5's with heat and replaced them with long TP5's
that reach up to the TP6.
Karl
<html><div></div></html>
|
[/quote]
[quote][b]
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europa(at)pstewart.f2s.co
Guest
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| Posted: Tue May 27, 2008 9:10 am Post subject: tourque tube troubles |
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|
Thank you Ron. Unfortunately our final paint is indeed on. Really
dislike the idea of merely gluing it back in place - don't see how
it's going to be better. Before embarking on major surgery like
yours, we're investigating the possibility of getting the outer edge
of TP5 welded to a plate of thinish SS such that when the TP% is
bonded back in place the plate sits flat on the root rib to which it
could be bonded. If it come to nothing we may go your way.
Regards
Paul
G-GIDY
On 27 May 2008, at 03:11, <rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.ny.us> wrote:
| Quote: |
Hi Paul
"Anyone had TP5 disbond from the tail plane root rib? If so I'd like
> to pick your brains."
My partner and his dad picked up our kit in Florida and trucked it
back to
New York. The first time I saw kit, the first thing I did was begin to
fool with tailplanes. It took 45 minutes to have a TP5 debonded!
Tailplanes were "accelerated". Here is how we dealt with:
http://www.europaowners.org/modules.php?
set_albumName=album220&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view
_album.php
We did send back and repair was putting a fillet of flox from outside
(April 2003). Unacceptable. Too were worries that the outer
bushings was
bonded as well as the inners which would probably fail right after
final
paint applied.
"When" our inner and outer bushings become debonded, there will be
a lot
of aeroplane coming with them.
Note rowing skull CF oars for guide while assembling. I like the
Mod. of
wrapping fiberglass around both bushings on a new build, but not
too easy
to do on a completed tailplane. I would rather see the first layer
of BID
using redux and peelply, then when cured use Aeropoxy/BID to complete.
Redux holds better to metals and its slight flexibility prevents as
harsh
a point loading. Still a fine mod because upon assembly it prevents
tremendous loads being exerted on inner bushing until torque tube
enters
the outer bushing. I do understand the BID encapsulates the bushings,
still first layer of Redux is better IMHO.
Ron Parigoris
|
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willie.harrison(at)tinyon
Guest
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| Posted: Tue May 27, 2008 9:23 am Post subject: tourque tube troubles |
|
|
I suggest that this problem can also be caused by undue side loads
translating into torsional and axial loads on a badly lubricated
torque tube when putting the tailplane on or off (easily done
especially if you don't hold it the way it says in the user manual).
The design is not brilliant, with quite a small area for the bond.
Repair could be difficult if the original internal flox fillet
prevents the disbonded sleeve from being removed completely for
degreasing. Note that if you do need to degrease in situ prior to
rebonding, then IPA is an effective degreasing agent that does not
dissolve the blue foam like some other solvents.
Needless to say (??) anyone with a G-reg aircraft who wants to go
public about such a problem might need their repair scheme to be
approved by the LAA if they didn't want to risk invalidating their
Permit, and therefore, in turn, their insurance.
Willie Harrison (too tired to write the book, "A Plane is Reborn" and
still waiting for the LAA to give me my Permit back after a 700 hr re-
build.....)
On 26 May 2008, at 21:59, Paul Stewart wrote:
| Quote: |
<europa(at)pstewart.f2s.com>
Anyone had TP5 disbond from the tail plane root rib? If so I'd like
to pick your brains.
Regards
Paul
G-GIDY
|
| | - The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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kheindl(at)msn.com
Guest
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| Posted: Tue May 27, 2008 9:33 am Post subject: tourque tube troubles |
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Paul,
There was a discussion about this a few months ago. I used a T6 aluminium tube from ACS. Someone pointed out that the interior should be plated with something first, but I can't remember what that process was. I think the reasoning was dissimilar metals and possibility of corrosion. My torque tube is always greased because I have seen corrosion on at least one Europa, with the regular setup.
Being in UK, you may want to check with Roger if their supplier can cut you two longer tubes out of the same material as TP5 and TP6.
Karl
<html><div></div></html>
[quote] From: europa(at)pstewart.f2s.com
Subject: Re: tourque tube troubles
Date: Tue, 27 May 2008 17:57:18 +0100
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com; rich(at)tuckwell.net
Karl
Thanks for the information. Can you tell me where you got suitable material to make a 'full length' TP5? or what sort of material and size it was?
Regards
Paul
G-GIDY
On 26 May 2008, at 23:23, Karl Heindl wrote:
| Quote: |
Paul,
Yes, both disbonded from trailering.
I simply bonded them in again with redux, making sure that there was enough of a gap all around for the adhesive to go on all sufaces. I also made a floxed ring on the inside of the rib. Mounted the tailplanes just far enough for the t.t. to go into the TP6.
Made sure that no redux would touch the t.t. while curing.
Years later, with the Mod 73 fiasco, I removed the TP5's with heat and replaced them with long TP5's
that reach up to the TP6.
Karl
<html><div></div></html>
| Quote: | http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
|
arget=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
p://forums.matronics.com
blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution
|
[b]
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kheindl(at)msn.com
Guest
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| Posted: Tue May 27, 2008 9:47 am Post subject: tourque tube troubles |
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Paul,
The order no.is 03-37900. That is 6061T6 tube with i.d. of 1.509 inches.
Karl
<html><div></div></html>
[quote] From: europa(at)pstewart.f2s.com
Subject: Re: tourque tube troubles
Date: Tue, 27 May 2008 17:57:18 +0100
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com; rich(at)tuckwell.net
Karl
Thanks for the information. Can you tell me where you got suitable material to make a 'full length' TP5? or what sort of material and size it was?
Regards
Paul
G-GIDY
On 26 May 2008, at 23:23, Karl Heindl wrote:
| Quote: |
Paul,
Yes, both disbonded from trailering.
I simply bonded them in again with redux, making sure that there was enough of a gap all around for the adhesive to go on all sufaces. I also made a floxed ring on the inside of the rib. Mounted the tailplanes just far enough for the t.t. to go into the TP6.
Made sure that no redux would touch the t.t. while curing.
Years later, with the Mod 73 fiasco, I removed the TP5's with heat and replaced them with long TP5's
that reach up to the TP6.
Karl
<html><div></div></html>
| Quote: | http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
|
arget=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
p://forums.matronics.com
blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution
|
[b]
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europa(at)pstewart.f2s.co
Guest
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| Posted: Tue May 27, 2008 12:53 pm Post subject: tourque tube troubles |
|
|
Thank you Bob. Making a puller to pull the offending articles out.
Investigating (with LAA) possibility of welding plate or tabs to the
TP5 which would then bond flat to the root rib as well as TP5 in the
plywood.
Regards
Paul
G-GIDY
On 27 May 2008, at 18:20, William Harrison wrote:
| Quote: |
<willie.harrison(at)tinyonline.co.uk>
I suggest that this problem can also be caused by undue side loads
translating into torsional and axial loads on a badly lubricated
torque tube when putting the tailplane on or off (easily done
especially if you don't hold it the way it says in the user manual).
The design is not brilliant, with quite a small area for the bond.
Repair could be difficult if the original internal flox fillet
prevents the disbonded sleeve from being removed completely for
degreasing. Note that if you do need to degrease in situ prior to
rebonding, then IPA is an effective degreasing agent that does not
dissolve the blue foam like some other solvents.
Needless to say (??) anyone with a G-reg aircraft who wants to go
public about such a problem might need their repair scheme to be
approved by the LAA if they didn't want to risk invalidating their
Permit, and therefore, in turn, their insurance.
Willie Harrison (too tired to write the book, "A Plane is Reborn"
and still waiting for the LAA to give me my Permit back after a 700
hr re-build.....)
On 26 May 2008, at 21:59, Paul Stewart wrote:
>
> <europa(at)pstewart.f2s.com>
>
> Anyone had TP5 disbond from the tail plane root rib? If so I'd
> like to pick your brains.
>
> Regards
>
> Paul
> G-GIDY
>
>
|
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craigb(at)onthenet.com.au
Guest
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| Posted: Wed May 28, 2008 1:38 am Post subject: tourque tube troubles |
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|
Yes I did much the same but at the build stage, replacing tp5 and tp6 with one full length tube an extended it about 100mm past
where tp6 would have finished, so in theory it is possible to also put the pip pin outside the rib, but you would be VERY close to end
of the torque tube. I wonder if Europa has considered making a full length tube available in the same material as tp5/6
craig
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