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Coolant Temps.

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kheindl(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 1:09 pm Post subject: Coolant Temps.

After changing all coolant hoses and coolant 50/50 I am now getting much higher coolant temperatures while taxiing and climbing, typically 25 C above the oil temperature. In the cruise the temperatures are all within 2 degrees of each other. I don't think I had this problem before. The radiator sits in front of the oil cooler. What could be the problem ? The pressure cap is .9 bar.

 Any suggestions ?

Karl

  

 

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  [quote][b]

g-iani(at)ntlworld.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 12:24 am Post subject: Coolant Temps.

Are you sure that this behaviour is new?  I would normally  expect the ground temp to be higher due to the limited airflow but the oil has  not had time to warm up fully.  Climbing temps would be higher due to the  engine working hard and thus raising the head temperatures and so the  coolant.

  

 Although not relevant to you problem are you going to change to  the 1.2 bar cap.

  

  

  

Ian Rickard G-IANI XS Trigear, 200 hours

Europa Club Mods Rep  (Trigear)

e-mail mods(at)europaclub.org.uk  

   or direct  g-iani(at)ntlworld.com  



   From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Karl  Heindl

Sent: 01 July 2008 22:07

To:  europa-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Coolant  Temps.

 

 

After changing all coolant hoses and coolant 50/50 I am now  getting much higher coolant temperatures while taxiing and climbing, typically  25 C above the oil temperature. In the cruise the temperatures are all  within 2 degrees of each other. I don't think I had this problem before. The  radiator sits in front of the oil cooler. What could be the problem ? The  pressure cap is .9 bar.

Any suggestions  ?

Karl

 



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[quote]



href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com

href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c

[b]

kheindl(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 4:43 am Post subject: Coolant Temps.

Ian C

  

 I am not 100% sure as I hadn't flown for a long time. But on a hot day in the climb my warning light used to come 

 on because of hot OIL. The coolant radiator gets most of the incoming air C and the oil cooler gets pre-heated air.

 What was the reason again for changing to the 1.2 bar cap ?

 What temperature differentials for coolant/oil are you getting ? 

  

 Karl 



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 From: g-iani(at)ntlworld.com

To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: RE: Coolant Temps.

Date: Wed C 2 Jul 2008 09:20:48 +0100

   .ExternalClass .EC_hmmessage P {padding-right:0px;padding-left:0px;padding-bottom:0px;padding-top:0px;} .ExternalClass BODY.EC_hmmessage {font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma;}   Are you sure that this behaviour is new?  I would normally expect the ground temp to be higher due to the limited airflow but the oil has not had time to warm up fully.  Climbing temps would be higher due to the engine working hard and thus raising the head temperatures and so the coolant.

  

 Although not relevant to you problem are you going to change to the 1.2 bar cap.

  

  

  Ian Rickard G-IANI XS Trigear C 200 hours

Europa Club Mods Rep (Trigear)

e-mail mods(at)europaclub.org.uk  

   or direct g-iani(at)ntlworld.com 

 



   From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Karl Heindl

Sent: 01 July 2008 22:07

To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Coolant Temps.

 

 

After changing all coolant hoses and coolant 50/50 I am now getting much higher coolant temperatures while taxiing and climbing C typically 25 C above the oil temperature. In the cruise the temperatures are all within 2 degrees of each other. I don't think I had this problem before. The radiator sits in front of the oil cooler. What could be the problem ? The pressure cap is .9 bar.

Any suggestions ?

Karl

 



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[quote]



href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com

href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c





 target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List

ttp://forums.matronics.com

=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution



[b]

budyerly(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 5:56 am Post subject: Coolant Temps.

<?xml:namespace prefix="v" /><?xml:namespace prefix="o" /><![endif]-->  Karl,

  

 Sounds to me like the duct sealing may have been compromised.

 Another culprit can be the hose running from the top expansion tank to the  radiator.  Sometimes that bend gets pinched a little.

  

 I don't know what engine you have, but my experience here in Florida  with the XS cowl and Rotax engines follows:

  

 1.  Lower the oil cooler as far down as you can get it.   Typically 1.5 inches is easily attained.  That lowers oil temps nearly 15  degrees.

  

 2.  Make sure the cowl seal rubber is doing its job to include around  the top front of the duct.  Any high pressure air getting from the lower  duct into the cowl cuts cooling.  The engine is partially air cooled  also.

  

 3.  Seal the gaps on the side and below the oil cooler.  The duct  works best when entering air stacks up and slows down in front of the coolers so  as to get efficient heat transfer.  I bend a piece of stainless which I  attach to the oil cooler bottom and bend it to make a nice tight seal underneath  also.  When taxiing, that really makes a difference.  I also continue  the seal back to the cowl exit.

  

 Other techniques:

  

 4.  For info only, I run 70/30 Dexcool which doesn't boil until 276F  vs. 265F for 50/50.

  

 5.  Taxi with coarse pitch to get more air in the duct.

  

 If you have a mono, I do a number of other mods too numerous to email  about.

  

 Bud

 Custom Flight Creations

  

  

 [quote]   ---

kheindl(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 11:47 am Post subject: Coolant Temps.

Hi Bud C

  

 Thanks for your recommendations. I am only concerned because I don't recall a coolant problem from previous years.

 I did make anumber of changes to the way the air flows over the engine (Ihave a trigear 912S) C but they should all 

 help with the cooling and reduction of drag:

 1) I cut back the aluminum duct tail end to the radiator and this is the main air outlet to the bottom of the fuselage.

 2) I sealed the gills.

 3) I taped over the main stbd Naca duct.

 4) I closed the outboard 60% of the two round inlets. I don't see the point of cooling the exhaust pipes.

 5) I closed the gap between the round baffle inlet and the baffle.

 6) I reduced the height of the main inlet by about 30mm C streamlined the interior of the duct C and made sure that 

      there are no more gaps either at the front or around the radiators.

 7)  The radiators are mounted just as you described.

   The hoses all have a smooth run C and the two main ones to the radiator are silicone and preshaped.

  

 In essence C I have reduced the cowl openings by 50% and doubled the exit openings.

 The performance improvement in the cruise is considerable. The temperature under the top cowling is around

 15 degrees C above oat.

 I see your note about  coolant mixture C and that concurs  with a note in the Rotax handbook.  I think I will try that

 and maybe change the pressure cap to 1.2 bar. 

  

 Karl



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 From: budyerly(at)msn.com

To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Europa-List: Coolant Temps.

Date: Wed C 2 Jul 2008 09:53:38 -0400

   .ExternalClass .EC_hmmessage P {padding-right:0px;padding-left:0px;padding-bottom:0px;padding-top:0px;} .ExternalClass BODY.EC_hmmessage {font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma;}    Karl C

  

 Sounds to me like the duct sealing may have been compromised.

 Another culprit can be the hose running from the top expansion tank to the radiator.  Sometimes that bend gets pinched a little.

  

 I don't know what engine you have C but my experience here in Florida with the XS cowl and Rotax engines follows:

  

 1.  Lower the oil cooler as far down as you can get it.  Typically 1.5 inches is easily attained.  That lowers oil temps nearly 15 degrees.

  

 2.  Make sure the cowl seal rubber is doing its job to include around the top front of the duct.  Any high pressure air getting from the lower duct into the cowl cuts cooling.  The engine is partially air cooled also.

  

 3.  Seal the gaps on the side and below the oil cooler.  The duct works best when entering air stacks up and slows down in front of the coolers so as to get efficient heat transfer.  I bend a piece of stainless which I attach to the oil cooler bottom and bend it to make a nice tight seal underneath also.  When taxiing C that really makes a difference.  I also continue the seal back to the cowl exit.

  

 Other techniques:

  

 4.  For info only C I run 70/30 Dexcool which doesn't boil until 276F vs. 265F for 50/50.

  

 5.  Taxi with coarse pitch to get more air in the duct.

  

 If you have a mono C I do a number of other mods too numerous to email about.

  

 Bud

 Custom Flight Creations

  

  

 [quote] ---

budyerly(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 1:13 pm Post subject: Coolant Temps.

<?xml:namespace prefix="v" /><?xml:namespace prefix="o" /><![endif]-->  Careful on the 1.2 bar cap.  The reduction in boiling over with the  extra pressure is not worth the potential for leaking hoses.  Unless you  replaced all the spring clamps with worm clamps, I would not do that.   

  

 As for the inlets, I leave mine the size they are due to ground  cooling.  It's a trade off.

  

 Bud 

  

 [quote]   ---

Gilles.Thesee(at)ac-greno
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 1:35 pm Post subject: Coolant Temps.

ALAN YERLY a écrit :

 	  Quote: 	
		   Careful on the 1.2 bar cap.  The reduction in boiling over with the 

 extra pressure is not worth the potential for leaking hoses.  Unless 

 you replaced all the spring clamps with worm clamps, I would not do that.


	


Alan,



No problem whatsoever with the hose spring clamps and 1.2 bar cap.



Best regards,

-- 

Gilles

http://contrails.free.fr

kheindl(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 2:19 pm Post subject: Coolant Temps.

Thank you. I'll go easy on that. But changing the cap back is easy. I am changing all clamps again to narrow stainless worm clamps C and I am also changing the hoses to the cylinders to a smaller i.d. silicone for a tight fit (next week).

 I see on the glycol container that the 50/50 mix boils at 129 C C and the 70/30 at 135. So that is a guide for setting my limit on my EIS warning light.

 Karl



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 From: budyerly(at)msn.com

To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Europa-List: Coolant Temps.

Date: Wed C 2 Jul 2008 17:09:48 -0400

   .ExternalClass .EC_hmmessage P {padding-right:0px;padding-left:0px;padding-bottom:0px;padding-top:0px;} .ExternalClass BODY.EC_hmmessage {font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma;}    Careful on the 1.2 bar cap.  The reduction in boiling over with the extra pressure is not worth the potential for leaking hoses.  Unless you replaced all the spring clamps with worm clamps C I would not do that.  

  

 As for the inlets C I leave mine the size they are due to ground cooling.  It's a trade off.

  

 Bud 

  

 [quote] ---

grahamsingleton(at)btinte
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 3:40 pm Post subject: Coolant Temps.

Problem with worm clamps is that when the hose gets hot, around 150C, 

which it can do with radiant heat, the hose softens and under pressure 

will pull out from under a worm clip. I suspect that is why Rotax 

changed to spring clamps after my accident.

The accident was caused by a hose pulling out and filling the cowling 

with vapour. Unfortunately the engine didn't stop and make the correct 

decision for me, (accept a controlled crash)

Graham

ALAN YERLY wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Careful on the 1.2 bar cap.  The reduction in boiling over with the 

 extra pressure is not worth the potential for leaking hoses.  Unless 

 you replaced all the spring clamps with worm clamps, I would not do 

 that. 

  

 As for the inlets, I leave mine the size they are due to ground 

 cooling.  It's a trade off.

  

 Bud

kheindl(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 5:46 pm Post subject: Coolant Temps.

Graham C

  

 You have a point there C but don't all Europa Rotaxes have worm clamps for the thick hoses from the radiator C plus a few more when the Skydrive kit is installed ?

  

 Karl



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 	  Quote: 	
		   Date: Thu C 3 Jul 2008 00:38:23 +0100

 From: grahamsingleton(at)btinternet.com

 To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Coolant Temps.

 

 --> Europa-List message posted by: Graham Singleton <grahamsingleton(at)btinternet.com>

 

 Problem with worm clamps is that when the hose gets hot C around 150C C 

 which it can do with radiant heat C the hose softens and under pressure 

 will pull out from under a worm clip. I suspect that is why Rotax 

 changed to spring clamps after my accident.

 The accident was caused by a hose pulling out and filling the cowling 

 with vapour. Unfortunately the engine didn't stop and make the correct 

 decision for me C (accept a controlled crash)

 Graham

 

 

 ALAN YERLY wrote:

 > Careful on the 1.2 bar cap. The reduction in boiling over with the 

 > extra pressure is not worth the potential for leaking hoses. Unless 

 > you replaced all the spring clamps with worm clamps C I would not do 

 > that. 

 > 

 > As for the inlets C I leave mine the size they are due to ground 

 > cooling. It's a trade off.

 > 

 > Bud

 > 

 

 > 

 

 


	


  [quote][b]

m.grass(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 6:17 pm Post subject: Coolant Temps.

Karl,

  

 Have a look at this link.

  

 http://www.gates.com/brochure.cfm?brochure=1020

  

 It explains very much why a worm clamp is the worst choice  for hoses which experience big temperature changes.

  

 Spring clamps are in my opinion the best readily available  choice but must be carefully selected for the right clamping size. The polymeric  type mentioned in this article might be a great system but I am not sure if  easily available and if we could easily apply them in our application so the  spring type will get my first vote.

  

 Michael Grass

 A266 TriGear

 Detroit

 [quote]   ---

grahamsingleton(at)btinte
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 1:27 am Post subject: Coolant Temps.

Karl Heindl wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Graham,

  

 You have a point there, but don't all Europa Rotaxes have worm clamps 

 for the thick hoses from the radiator, plus a few more when the 

 Skydrive kit is installed ?

  

 Karl

Karl
	


you are right but all the hoses Rotax fit on the engine now have clips. 

It was a Europa factory molded hose that let go on me. Those hoses are 

fiber reinforced elastomer whereas the Rotax ones are cloth reinforced.

Graham

kheindl(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 3:16 am Post subject: Coolant Temps.

Graham C

 What is the implication of using silicone hoses which I and others have installed ? I had a couple of small leaks where I refitted Rotax spring clamps (in ground tests). And should there not be a mandatory mod from Europa to change all worm clamps ? The Skydrive kit is installed on many Europas and it has about 8 clamps. Then there are another two clamps for the temperature sensor.

 What type of clamps are used on automobiles ?

 I am going to investigate the new clamps pointed out by Michael.

 Karl

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 	  Quote: 	
		   Date: Thu C 3 Jul 2008 10:24:03 +0100

 From: grahamsingleton(at)btinternet.com

 To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Coolant Temps.

 --> Europa-List message posted by: Graham Singleton <grahamsingleton(at)btinternet.com>

 Karl Heindl wrote:

 > Graham C

 > 

 > You have a point there C but don't all Europa Rotaxes have worm clamps 

 > for the thick hoses from the radiator C plus a few more when the 

 > Skydrive kit is installed ?

 > 

 > Karl

 Karl

 you are right but all the hoses Rotax fit on the engine now have clips. 

 It was a Europa factory molded hose that let go on me. Those hoses are 

 fiber reinforced elastomer whereas the Rotax ones  Archive Search & Download C 7-Day Browse C Chat C FAQ C

&gt======================

&gt======

 	  Quote: 	

  [quote][b]

grahamsingleton(at)btinte
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 5:54 am Post subject: Coolant Temps.

Karl

 could be that the clip is the wrong size for the hose. You maybe should ask the hose supplier what size to use? Similarly if you want to use spring clips you need to find out what size the hose needs.

 There probably should be a mod but don't hold your breath  

 Graham

 

 

 

 Karl Heindl wrote: [quote]    .hmmessage P { margin:0px; padding:0px } body.hmmessage { FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY:Tahoma }   Graham,

  

 What is the implication of using silicone hoses which I and others have installed ? I had a couple of small leaks where I refitted Rotax spring clamps (in ground tests). And should there not be a mandatory mod from Europa to change all worm clamps ? The Skydrive kit is installed on many Europas and it has about 8 clamps. Then there are another two clamps for the temperature sensor.

 What type of clamps are used on automobiles ?

 I am going to investigate the new clamps pointed out by Michael.

 Karl

 [b]

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