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Bright screen on Dynon D-180
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stormyflight(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 9:21 am Post subject: Bright screen on Dynon D-180

I am sending in by D-180 for service and I was considering upgrading the screen.  Does anyone have an opinion on whether or not the upgrade is needed or worth the expense when used in a Zodiac?  



Jim Machin

601 Xl Quickbuild, 0-200



          [quote][b]

ashleyw(at)gvtc.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 9:45 am Post subject: Bright screen on Dynon D-180

I just sent my D-180 in for service and ordered the  Bright Screen upgrade.  I will not have it back for about two weeks.   I will let you know what I find out when I get it back.

  

 Floyd Wilkes

 601XL O-200

  

  

 [quote]   ---

tom.orsborn(at)verizon.ne
Guest

Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 1:55 pm Post subject: Bright screen on Dynon D-180

Hello Ron



Did you get away from North Texas this week?  



tom

On Sat, Jul 5, 2008 at 12:17 PM, J.T. Machin wrote:



I am sending in by D-180 for service and I was considering upgrading the screen.  Does anyone have an opinion on whether or not the upgrade is needed or worth the expense when used in a Zodiac?  



Jim Machin 

601 Xl Quickbuild, 0-200 

[u]http://www.matronics.com/=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

/forums.matronics.com"" TARGET="_blank">[b][u]http://forums.matronics.com=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

[u]http://www.matronic3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 

 [quote][b]

DaveG601XL

Joined: 27 Oct 2006
Posts: 351
Location: Cincinnati, Oh

Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 7:37 pm Post subject: Re: Bright screen on Dynon D-180

I have the bright screen Dynon D-180 and cannot imagine having anything dimmer, especially on a bright day.  I have been doing taxi testing on bright days and it is very readable, but could be brighter.  Based on this, I would not have anything but the bright screen upgrade if I were you.



Good luck,

_________________
David Gallagher
Cincinnati, OH area

stormyflight(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 9:37 pm Post subject: Bright screen on Dynon D-180

Yea, that's is what I figured, but I thought I would check.  I guess I will be going for the 

upgrade.



Thanks a lot for the input,

Jim

601 XL Quickbuild - 0-200



--- On Sat, 7/5/08, DaveG601XL <david.m.gallagher(at)ge.com> wrote:

[quote]From: DaveG601XL <david.m.gallagher(at)ge.com>

Subject: Re: Bright screen on Dynon D-180

To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Saturday, July 5, 2008, 8:37 PM



[quote]--> Zenith-List message posted by: "DaveG601XL"

<david.m.gallagher(at)ge.com>



I have the bright screen Dynon D-180 and cannot imagine having anything dimmer,

especially on a bright day.  I have been doing taxi testing on bright days and

it is very readable, but could be          [quote][b]

stormyflight(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 9:46 pm Post subject: Bright screen on Dynon D-180

I didn't know there was a difference.  What is the hit on life expectancy?



I have a Map296 and have trouble seeing it when I wear sun glasses which is a bit irritating.



Thanks for your input,

Jim

601 XL Quickbuild - 0-200



--- On Sat, 7/5/08, Sabrina <chicago2paris(at)msn.com> wrote:

[quote]From: Sabrina <chicago2paris(at)msn.com>

Subject: Re: Bright screen on Dynon D-180

To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Saturday, July 5, 2008, 9:47 PM



[quote]--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Sabrina"

<chicago2paris(at)msn.com>



Six months of flying here in all conditions, morning sun, setting sun, high

noon, winter sun with glare off the snow, intense sun on a perfect day as

today,         [quote][b]

stormyflight(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 9:58 pm Post subject: Bright screen on Dynon D-180

My unit won't power-up.  I bought it a little over a year ago and installed into the panel and everything worked fine.  I did demo the thing during hanger flying quite a bit without the main battery online and I did notice that the backup battery was showing low voltage.  I then let the unit sit while I went on to build the wings (2 or 3 months) and when I checked the unit again it would not power-up on internal or external battery.  Dynon says ship it back.



By the way, what did you use for CHT sensors?(I think yours is an 0-200 as well)?  The ones that came with the engine sensor package had bayonet type and my 0-200 won't accommodate.



Jim

601 XL Quickbuild - 0200



--- On Sat, 7/5/08, Sabrina <chicago2paris(at)msn.com> wrote:

[quote]From: Sabrina <chicago2paris(at)msn.com>

Subject: Re: Bright screen on Dynon D-180

To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Saturday, July 5, 2008, 10:18 PM



[quote]--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Sabrina"

<chicago2paris(at)msn.com>



Just out of curiosity... why are you all sending your units in for service?  



Stein cables, the ones supplied by Dynon to me in 2006 had a pair of wires

flipped in their EFIS D180 harness and one 'open' wire on their EMS

D180 harness.  I wrote to them, but they never wrote back.  Dynon did talk to

me last Air Venture about it. 



P.S. My last post assumed Dynon still drops the intensity to 300 nit during a

power failure/back up run on the 800 nit screen models but allows the 400 nit

D180 owners to maintain that intensity even when running on back up.  If you

800 nit owners can maintain their 800 nit screen while          [quote][b]

ashleyw(at)gvtc.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 06, 2008 4:04 am Post subject: Bright screen on Dynon D-180

I sent mine back because after power on, it would roll inverted for a few 

seconds before righting itself.  Factory said send it in.



I have flown my 601 approx 2.5 hours when I determined the engine was having 

minor problems.  So I figured while the engine was down, I might as well 

send the Dynon in during the down time.



My O-200 has new ECI cylinders and they have the holes for the CHT probes.



Floyd Wilkes

601XL O-200

---

dredmoody(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 06, 2008 6:55 am Post subject: Bright screen on Dynon D-180

As a suggestion based on my AF-3400 screens from  Advanced Flight Systems, I plan to dim them to the least brightness that allows  them to be easily read in the conditions of any given flight. In other words,  just as you would not drive you car or truck with the accelerator constantly  mashed to the floorboard, there is no reason that you would have to  always run the screen as bright as its maximum allows. The benefit of  dimming a bit would be longer screen life(?) and lower power consumption. On the  other hand, just like the bigger engine in my car, I like knowing that it  is there when needed if only rarely and briefly.

  

 Ed

 601XL / Jab

 painting

   [quote][b]

craig(at)craigandjean.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 06, 2008 10:12 am Post subject: Bright screen on Dynon D-180

If the backlight is using white LEDs (and not a compact fluorescent lamp like most laptops do) then it will outlive you at any brightness. And the actual liquid crystal panel in not impacted by the brightness.  

   

Battery life is a different story.  

   

-- Craig  

       

From: owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Edward Moody II

 Sent: Sunday, July 06, 2008 8:53 AM

 To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Bright screen on Dynon D-180  

  

  

     

As a suggestion based on my AF-3400 screens from Advanced Flight Systems, I plan to dim them to the least brightness that allows them to be easily read in the conditions of any given flight. In other words, just as you would not drive you car or truck with the accelerator constantly mashed to the floorboard, there is no reason that you would have to always run the screen as bright as its maximum allows. The benefit of dimming a bit would be longer screen life(?) and lower power consumption. On the other hand, just like the bigger engine in my car, I like knowing that it is there when needed if only rarely and briefly.  

    

   

    

Ed  

    

601XL / Jab  

    

painting  

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engineerguy3737(at)yahoo.
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 06, 2008 10:17 am Post subject: Bright screen on Dynon D-180

There is zero difference in life expectancy between the bright screen option and the original screen option.



Dan Lykowski

--- On Sun, 7/6/08, J.T. Machin <stormyflight(at)yahoo.com> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   From: J.T. Machin <stormyflight(at)yahoo.com>

 Subject: Re: Re: Bright screen on Dynon D-180

 To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com

 Date: Sunday, July 6, 2008, 1:44 AM

 I didn't know there was a difference.  What is the hit

 on life expectancy?

 

 I have a Map296 and have trouble seeing it when I wear sun

 glasses which is a bit irritating.

 

 Thanks for your input,

 Jim

 601 XL Quickbuild - 0-200

 

 --- On Sat, 7/5/08, Sabrina <chicago2paris(at)msn.com>

 wrote:

 From: Sabrina <chicago2paris(at)msn.com>

 Subject: Re: Bright screen on Dynon D-180

 To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com

 Date: Saturday, July 5, 2008, 9:47 PM

 

 

 <chicago2paris(at)msn.com>

 

 Six months of flying here in all conditions, morning sun,

 setting sun, high

 noon, winter sun with glare off the snow, intense sun on a

 perfect day as

 today, the normal D-180 does well.  The shorter life

 expectancy of the brighter

 screen would worry me.  So too, once used to the bright

 screen, the dim screen

 while running on internal battery would seem a distraction

 to me.  The last

 thing one needs during a power failure is straining to see

 the 'new'

 dim screen.

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=191404#191404

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 ===========

craig(at)craigandjean.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 06, 2008 12:27 pm Post subject: Bright screen on Dynon D-180

Have you ever seen an LCD display fail? From heat? Do you have a hard source

of facts?



-- Craig



--

craig(at)craigandjean.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 06, 2008 6:32 pm Post subject: Bright screen on Dynon D-180

"plastic substrate based displays"



I think if you check the panels used in the Dynons (along with other flight

gear and most consumer equipment) are glass-based.



But anyway, the article writes about "environmental conditions". I won't

deny that higher temperatures correlate with increased failures. But how

high and from what heat source? If the Garmin 496 specs are to believed they

are happy to have you operate it up to an ambient temperature of 170F (too

hot to touch). And if it is like a lot of active matrix color displays (like

the one in my Palm Treo when I leave it on the dash of my car in the sun) it

doesn't have a hard failure at elevated temperatures - it simply becomes

unreadable. Let it cool and it works fine again.



Here is a link to a flier on Sharp's LCD displays:



http://sharp-world.com/products/device/catalog/pdf/ia_lcd200802_e.pdf



On pages 11 and 12 (as Acrobat sees it or marked as "19" through "22") there

is a column headed "Operating Temperature". Two kinds of temperatures are

listed: "ambient" and "panel surface" in centigrade. Listed high ambient

values range from 40 C to 65 C. The upper limit of panel surface temperature

ranges between 70 C and 85 C (again too hot to touch). And this is without

even selecting for panels designed for harsh environments.



If you google "active matrix mtbf" you find figures in 10 of thousands of

hours. And many of those hits specifically cite this as the MTBF of the

backlight. Even assuming you are on the wrong side of the bell-shaped curve

you are still going to put a few engines in your plane before the LCD in

your panel fails.



Look at it from a practical business point of view (end-customers, Dynon and

their panel supplier). The designers say "we can build you a brighter panel

but you will see more customer returns". Who in the supply chain would want

such a product?



-- Craig

--

craig(at)craigandjean.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 06, 2008 8:39 pm Post subject: Bright screen on Dynon D-180

Sadly, I'm going to miss the dinner as I'll only be at OSH Monday and

Tuesday. Since I won't be seeing anyone I'll state for the record that I am

6 foot 4 and surreally handsome 



But I'll check with another source which you can interview too. Rainier

Lamers is the head and chief designer at MGL Avionics - makers of the Enigma

(5.7" diagonal), Voyager (8.4") and Odyssey (10.4") color glass EFIS systems

- with some of the largest, brightest displays in this area. The Enigma Mark

II is going to offer 1800 nits while the Voyager's display is rated at 1200

nits (although I believe everyone lies about nits). You can read Rainier's

postings on these specs at the MGL User Group on Yahoo:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stratomaster_users_group/



Anyway MGL is based outside of Cape Town, South Africa so Rainier doesn't

attend OSH that often. But he will be manning MGL's booth (at least some of

the time) this year. Rainier is unbelievably open about his products and

development plans. Google the "osborne effect" to see why this is at the

other end of the risk spectrum from say Dynon. Anyway drop by booths 2139

and 2140 in hanger B and talk with Rainier - everyone. I think you will

learn a lot.



I'll ask Rainier about the relationship of display brightness, reliability

and MTBF on the Yahoo group and see what he says. Someone else can ask the

same question on the Dynon-owned forum.



-- Craig



Full disclosure: I own an Enigma and started the user group but I have no

financial interest in MGL.



Do not archive



--

craig(at)craigandjean.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 06, 2008 9:56 pm Post subject: Bright screen on Dynon D-180

 	  Quote: 	
		   The key here is that the case and electronics were designed for 400 nits

and a maximum temp of 122 F.
	




In that case it is a question that can't be answered by looking at panel

specs in isolation. Only Dynon can answer it. I guess we would need an

official response to resolve the conflicting unofficial responses.



 	  Quote: 	
		   You can attend Women Soar on Monday and Tuesday if you want!   You will

find me hanging out with the RRL guys Tuesday afternoon.
	




I may not make it. But I'll see if my ugly brother can.



-- Craig

engineerguy3737(at)yahoo.
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 12:00 am Post subject: Bright screen on Dynon D-180

I guess I should have clarified. The 400-knit display uses the same backlight as the 800-knit display. The display was modified to focus more light to your eyes instead of wasting it inside of the case.



I don't know any specifics on mortality rates as I just write software. But if the data exists I don't see why we would have a problem sharing it.

I do know that the engineering units that I use have been through hell and back and they still work. At least 2 years old 8 hours a day sometimes left on overnight and on weekends. Power cycled 50+ times a day. The only thing we don't do to them daily is run the temperatures up and down.



Dan Lykowski

Dynon Avionics

--- On Mon, 7/7/08, Sabrina <chicago2paris(at)msn.com> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   From: Sabrina <chicago2paris(at)msn.com>

 Subject: Re: Bright screen on Dynon D-180

 To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com

 Date: Monday, July 7, 2008, 12:54 AM

 

 <chicago2paris(at)msn.com>

 

 The key here is that the case and electronics were designed

 for 400 nits and a maximum temp of 122 F.   

 

 I am sure Mr. Lamers could design a panel that would put

 out 2000 nits for 20 years at 170F ambient.  That is not

 the question.

 

 The rub here is: What is the effect on longevity of the

 D180 as a whole when you double the nits without

 redesigning the case, the cooling, the other components

 inside?    Especially where such a low ambient temperature

 was speced in the first place.

 

 You can attend Women Soar on Monday and Tuesday if you

 want!   You will find me hanging out with the RRL guys

 Tuesday afternoon.  

 

 It would be a pleasure to meet you.

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=191539#191539

craig(at)craigandjean.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 10:35 am Post subject: Bright screen on Dynon D-180

FWIW this is what Rainier at MGL had to say when asked about "Screen

brightness, reliability and MTBF"



<quote>

MTBF on CCFL backlights is not something that is terribly high on my list of

concerns.



Our tubes are rated at between 50.000 and 80.000 hours at a nominal current

designed for display applications where the display is on for 24/7.

It is quite permissible to increase the current through the tubes in our

applications to increase light output provided the additional heat generated

can dissipate. Life time is decreased and the decrease is dependent on the

amount of additional current put through the tubes. Up to about 50%

overcurrent the effects are negligible and a life time of 30.000 hours

minimum is still available (Life time is measured to the point where the

brightness has degraded to 50% of the starting value).

Note that this does not apply for "normal" CCFL tubes, you will blow them

quickly if you drive them too hard - this can only be done on long life

tubes where you trade some of the extra life time for more brightness.

Naturally these are a little bit more expensive.



In total I would estimate that we have produced around 4000 instruments over

the years that use either one or two CCFL tubes as backlight and we have

never had a failure that we are aware of, not even one.



There are other methods that can be used to increase light output and we

tend to use a combination of increased light generation and utilization. It

is interesting to note that a normal TFT display can only radiate about 8%

of the light created by the backlight system. 

The rest is lost in polarizers, color filters and simply blocked by active

components that are part of the LCD glass.

The display used in the Enigma MKII is, as far as I can establish, the

Worlds brightest TFT LCD display based on a standard frame. It manages this

largely by a clever combination of light directors and a special polarizer

and also minimizing losses due to material density changes as the light

travels through various layers of the display.



Rainier

<end quote>



-- Craig

amyvega2005(at)earthlink.
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:58 am Post subject: Bright screen on Dynon D-180

I hope my plane too flys for 40,000 hours so I can see my screen MTBF happen.



Juan



--

engineerguy3737(at)yahoo.
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 12:41 pm Post subject: Bright screen on Dynon D-180

All,

  I am first and foremost on this list as a builder so although I am happy to provide any information that I know, the best place to ask these questions is on the Dynon Forum, or by calling Tech Support.



   Dynon has put a significant amount of time engineering the bright screen option so I cannot tell you the exact methods we use to get the extra brightness. I have said all I can already. It will not shorten the life of the display, you just have to trust us on this one.



It seems odd to me that we would have explicitly told you not to upgrade your screen. I believe our stance has been that if you were happy with it, then there is not any need to upgrade. There are a lot of factors that play in to the visibility of the display including placement in the panel, sunlight where you are flying, type of canopy, etc.. Only you can really be the judge as to if you need the upgrade or not.



I believe that our screens have 170 degree visibility. ( I may be wrong on this one. )



Remove Dynon Hat...

As a side note, I don't have my panel even remotely planned or any clue about sunlight visibility in a 601XL. I do plan on putting in dual Dynon Screens. My thoughts are that I will go for the bright screen option because of the bubble canopy, but the sunny weather here in Seattle may not make it necessary. 



Dan Lykowski

Dynon Avionics



--- On Mon, 7/7/08, Sabrina <chicago2paris(at)msn.com> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   From: Sabrina <chicago2paris(at)msn.com>

 Subject: Re: Bright screen on Dynon D-180

 To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com

 Date: Monday, July 7, 2008, 2:52 PM

 

 <chicago2paris(at)msn.com>

 

 Hello Dan!

 

 Couple of questions.  You get more nits from the same

 backlight.   Have you as the software engineer boosted

 power to the old backlight to get more nits out?

 

 Since I have a center mounted screen where both the pilot

 and co-pilot look at the screen at an angle, could that be

 the reason Dynon sugguested that I do NOT upgrade to the

 more focused 800 nit screen?

 

 You are focusing the same 400 nit backlight to now focus

 800 nits at the pilot, does this assume the D180 is mounted

 directly in front of the pilot?

 

 If you have not boosted the power and only re-directed or

 focused the light, and you are the co-pilot with an 800 nit

 screen sitting directly in front of the the pilot, the

 screen would seem dimmer to you, the co-pilot, than even

 the old  400 nit unit because of the angle--you are sharing

 less of the now pilot focused light?

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=191629#191629

samlauncher
Guest

Posted: Fri May 13, 2011 10:37 pm Post subject: Re: Bright screen on Dynon D-180

hey frndz m looking for screen resolution info plz helpâ€¦.

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