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Removing PVA release agent

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asarangan(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 8:26 am Post subject: Removing PVA release agent

I am not sure what the PVA release agent looks like. My cockpit module

has very thick glossy stuff all over the the underside. It looks more

like excessive epoxy. But I am concerned if this might be the PVA

release agent. If so, it's not going to come off with any amount of

washing in soap and water. Some heavy duty sanding would be in order.

Does anyone have some advice on this?

Thanks!

davidjoyce(at)doctors.org
Guest

Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 9:59 am Post subject: Removing PVA release agent

Andrew, My advice is to take it seriously and wash very thoroughly and then 

wash again. I think the release agent is just a water soluble thing which 

will be there in small quantities and not necessarily visible. My reason for 

saying this is that release agents contain a chemical known to be good at 

enhancing or provoking the production of allergic reactions. I was a bit 

casual about the washing as it looked reasonably clean, but I developed a 

serious allergy, giving asthma and most unpleasant lung and nose symptoms 

whilst dry sanding the wing and fuselage smooth surfaces to prepare for gel 

coating, which like paint needs a matt surface without any trace of shine, 

(and it is potentially lethal, since repeated exposure once sensitive can 

give anaphylactic reactions) I am not sensitive to ordinary fibreglass or 

filler dust but only the dust from those moulded surfaces which  have been 

coated with releasing agent.

           Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ

---

rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.n
Guest

Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 10:36 am Post subject: Removing PVA release agent

Hi Andrew



"I am not sure what the PVA release agent looks like. My cockpit module

 	  Quote: 	
		   has very thick glossy stuff all over the the underside. It looks more

 like excessive epoxy. But I am concerned if this might be the PVA

 release agent. If so, it's not going to come off with any amount of

 washing in soap and water. Some heavy duty sanding would be in order.

 Does anyone have some advice on this?"


	


Use the hottest water you can tolerate, we used just plain green Palmolive

dish washing soap (great hand cleaner)and scotchbright pad. Once water

sheets rather than beads up you can switch to plain water and

scotchbright. You need to rinse off all the soap which is no trivial job.

Just keep rinsing, you could use green scouring pads (for sinks) as well.

When you think you got it all off, use some hot water "when" you see

bubbles forming, keep at it. 



Ron Parigoris

loboloda(at)execulink.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 1:05 pm Post subject: Removing PVA release agent

Andrew,



My spars were coated with something, I presume it was a release  

agent, nothing would stick to it.

I tried detergent and water, and tri sodium phospate, neither of  

which did much.

Sanding just worked the contaminant into the spars.

Eventually I tried Comet kitchen cleaner, and the foaming/scouring  

action plus lots of water

cleaned them well.

After this a friend from the auto industry gave me a bottle of  

"Polycracker" prep wash.

Sprayed on wiped off and rinsed, the stuff was brilliant at removing  

whatever was on the spars.



Dave



On 11-Jul-08, at 12:23 PM, Andrew Sarangan wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <asarangan(at)gmail.com>



 I am not sure what the PVA release agent looks like. My cockpit module

 has very thick glossy stuff all over the the underside. It looks more

 like excessive epoxy. But I am concerned if this might be the PVA

 release agent. If so, it's not going to come off with any amount of

 washing in soap and water. Some heavy duty sanding would be in order.

 Does anyone have some advice on this?

 Thanks!

asarangan(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 1:29 pm Post subject: Removing PVA release agent

Now you are getting me worried. I did not wash my XS wing spar before

applying the reinforcement plies, nor did the manual mention it.  I

simply scuff sanded it. But I did not notice any adhesion problems.

Anyone else notice this?

On Fri, Jul 11, 2008 at 5:06 PM, david miller <loboloda(at)execulink.com> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 Andrew,

 My spars were coated with something, I presume it was a release agent,

 nothing would stick to it.

 I tried detergent and water, and tri sodium phospate, neither of which did

 much.

 Sanding just worked the contaminant into the spars.

 Eventually I tried Comet kitchen cleaner, and the foaming/scouring action

 plus lots of water

 cleaned them well.

 After this a friend from the auto industry gave me a bottle of "Polycracker"

 prep wash.

 Sprayed on wiped off and rinsed, the stuff was brilliant at removing

 whatever was on the spars.

 Dave

 On 11-Jul-08, at 12:23 PM, Andrew Sarangan wrote:

> 

>

> I am not sure what the PVA release agent looks like. My cockpit module

> has very thick glossy stuff all over the the underside. It looks more

> like excessive epoxy. But I am concerned if this might be the PVA

> release agent. If so, it's not going to come off with any amount of

> washing in soap and water. Some heavy duty sanding would be in order.

> Does anyone have some advice on this?

> Thanks!

>

>

grahamsingleton(at)btinte
Guest

Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 2:35 pm Post subject: Removing PVA release agent

Andrew

PVA release, (poly vinyl alcohol) is water soluble. It will be like a 

film and tend to peel off. Wet it and it will soften and feel greasy/sticky.

I am not aware that the factory used it, too much trouble, it is slow to 

dry when applied.

Graham



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Now you are getting me worried. I did not wash my XS wing spar before

 applying the reinforcement plies, nor did the manual mention it.  I

 simply scuff sanded it. But I did not notice any adhesion problems.

 Anyone else notice this?

craigb(at)onthenet.com.au
Guest

Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 2:57 pm Post subject: Removing PVA release agent

Having used PVA for other glassing work, I havn't noticed any sign of it

on my kit.



craig



--

keithhickling(at)clear.ne
Guest

Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 10:56 pm Post subject: Removing PVA release agent

Andrew,

Andy told me that the PVA release agent is only on the smoothe moulded

surfaces, I think just on those with white filler on the surface - ie

fuselage, wing skins on XS etc. That's all the manual says to wash. I think

what you are seeing on the underside of the cockpit module

is excess epoxy as you suggest. Mine certainly had a lot of epoxy ridges and

lumps, which the manual suggests sanding off to get a reasonably even

surface for bonding. I presume these are from the vacuum bags.



I don't know about the wing spars - like you, I didn't wash them before the

reinforcing tapes, just scuff sanded, and the bonding seemed fine. I

stressed the spar bracket quite a bit getting the spars separated, and it

showed absolutely so inclination to debond.



Regards,

Keith Hickling,

New Zealand.



---

loboloda(at)execulink.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Jul 12, 2008 5:34 am Post subject: Removing PVA release agent

Andrew,



My kit had foam wings.

You would very quickly notice if there was a problem with adhesion,  

voids would be

visible, and it would be possible to lift the edge of the lay up,  

don't ask me how I know.



Dave



do not archive

On 11-Jul-08, at 5:26 PM, Andrew Sarangan wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <asarangan(at)gmail.com>



 Now you are getting me worried. I did not wash my XS wing spar before

 applying the reinforcement plies, nor did the manual mention it.  I

 simply scuff sanded it. But I did not notice any adhesion problems.

 Anyone else notice this?





 On Fri, Jul 11, 2008 at 5:06 PM, david miller  

 <loboloda(at)execulink.com> wrote:

> 

> <loboloda(at)execulink.com>

>

> Andrew,

>

> My spars were coated with something, I presume it was a release  

> agent,

> nothing would stick to it.

> I tried detergent and water, and tri sodium phospate, neither of  

> which did

> much.

> Sanding just worked the contaminant into the spars.

> Eventually I tried Comet kitchen cleaner, and the foaming/scouring  

> action

> plus lots of water

> cleaned them well.

> After this a friend from the auto industry gave me a bottle of  

> "Polycracker"

> prep wash.

> Sprayed on wiped off and rinsed, the stuff was brilliant at removing

> whatever was on the spars.

>

> Dave

>

> On 11-Jul-08, at 12:23 PM, Andrew Sarangan wrote:

>

>> 

>> <asarangan(at)gmail.com>

>>

>> I am not sure what the PVA release agent looks like. My cockpit  

>> module

>> has very thick glossy stuff all over the the underside. It looks  

>> more

>> like excessive epoxy. But I am concerned if this might be the PVA

>> release agent. If so, it's not going to come off with any amount of

>> washing in soap and water. Some heavy duty sanding would be in  

>> order.

>> Does anyone have some advice on this?

>> Thanks!

>>

>>

>>

>>

asarangan(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Jul 19, 2008 10:08 am Post subject: Removing PVA release agent

Ron

I used Palmolive dish soap and hot water. Made me sweat like a pig in

the 90-deg weather:-) I could only see small shreds of transparent

plastic wrap stuck to various surfaces. I am assuming this is the PVA

agent that has dried to form a thin film. I can peel off small chunks,

but I can't tell how much of the entire surface is covered with this

film. Most importantly, I tried soaking one of these pieces in hot

water and soap and it showed no tendency to dissolve even after an

hour. So obviously I am looking at the wrong stuff, or this is a lot

harder to remove than I had assumed.

Any thoughts?

On Fri, Jul 11, 2008 at 2:33 PM,  <rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.ny.us> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 Hi Andrew

 "I am not sure what the PVA release agent looks like. My cockpit module

> has very thick glossy stuff all over the the underside. It looks more

> like excessive epoxy. But I am concerned if this might be the PVA

> release agent. If so, it's not going to come off with any amount of

> washing in soap and water. Some heavy duty sanding would be in order.

> Does anyone have some advice on this?"

 Use the hottest water you can tolerate, we used just plain green Palmolive

 dish washing soap (great hand cleaner)and scotchbright pad. Once water

 sheets rather than beads up you can switch to plain water and

 scotchbright. You need to rinse off all the soap which is no trivial job.

 Just keep rinsing, you could use green scouring pads (for sinks) as well.

 When you think you got it all off, use some hot water "when" you see

 bubbles forming, keep at it.

 Ron Parigoris

rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.n
Guest

Posted: Sat Jul 19, 2008 1:42 pm Post subject: Removing PVA release agent

Hi Andrew



"I could only see small shreds of transparent

 	  Quote: 	
		   plastic wrap stuck to various surfaces."


	


I am not sure of the exact designation of the release compound europa

uses, but it is in fact water soluble. Using scotch bright with Palmolive

takes it off OK. What you are describing does not sound like a release

agent. My kit was covered with tan packaging tape. Boy what a pain to get

off. It was definite not 3M 375 tape (my favorite packaging tape used

extensive in model building), but most likely some cheap stuff that got

stuck better than many of my layups! I am wondering if what you see is

very thin clear packaging tape?? Or shrink wrap pulled very tight on

remains of packaging tape?



www.mcmaster.com search:

Ultra-Sharp Razor blades



Buy a hundred Ultra-Sharp Carbon Steel Blades. Try some mineral spirits

and razor blades (and finger nails), it may be tape?? Can also try some

Isopropyl Alcohol. See if you can disolve with other than watere. Use

scotch-bright with a solvent that seems to work. Be very careful with

acetone and blue foam.



Shaving with very sharp razor blade and solvent sounds like a good plan

without seeing first hand??



Curious what your resolve will be.



Ron P.

asarangan(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Jul 19, 2008 5:04 pm Post subject: Removing PVA release agent

Here is a link to some photos. It is in corners and crevices, so I

doubt it is packing tape.   It does not dissolve in water at all. I

waited several hours. It  really looks like cling wrap, or some type

of peel ply, but no one has mentioned its existence in the moldings.

It tears easily and only comes off in small bits, so it is hard to

guess how much of the surface is covered by this stuff. I will try

your suggestions on using a sharp blade and IPA. Let me know if you

see anything in the photos.

http://www.sarangan.org/aviation/europa/fuse/ch11.html



On Sat, Jul 19, 2008 at 5:39 PM,  <rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.ny.us> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Hi Andrew



 "I could only see small shreds of transparent

> plastic wrap stuck to various surfaces."



 I am not sure of the exact designation of the release compound europa

 uses, but it is in fact water soluble. Using scotch bright with Palmolive

 takes it off OK. What you are describing does not sound like a release

 agent. My kit was covered with tan packaging tape. Boy what a pain to get

 off. It was definite not 3M 375 tape (my favorite packaging tape used

 extensive in model building), but most likely some cheap stuff that got

 stuck better than many of my layups! I am wondering if what you see is

 very thin clear packaging tape?? Or shrink wrap pulled very tight on

 remains of packaging tape?



 www.mcmaster.com search:

 Ultra-Sharp Razor blades



 Buy a hundred Ultra-Sharp Carbon Steel Blades. Try some mineral spirits

 and razor blades (and finger nails), it may be tape?? Can also try some

 Isopropyl Alcohol. See if you can disolve with other than watere. Use

 scotch-bright with a solvent that seems to work. Be very careful with

 acetone and blue foam.



 Shaving with very sharp razor blade and solvent sounds like a good plan

 without seeing first hand??



 Curious what your resolve will be.



 Ron P.

keithhickling(at)clear.ne
Guest

Posted: Sat Jul 19, 2008 5:14 pm Post subject: Removing PVA release agent

Andrew,

I think what you are describing is plastic film remaining from the moulding 

process (? part of vacuum bagging process). As I mentioned, Andy told me 

there is no release agent on the non-moulded surfaces - ie on the underside 

of the cockpit module. All I found was excess epoxy ridges and small pieces 

of plastic film that was adherent in parts.



If that's what it is, and you are talking about the underside of the CM that 

bonds to the fuselage, by the time you have sanded the bonding surfaces to 

remove the epoxy ridges, leaving a fairly flat surface, you should find that 

virtually all the plastic remnants are removed.



Keith Hickling.



---

craigb(at)onthenet.com.au
Guest

Posted: Sat Jul 19, 2008 5:48 pm Post subject: Removing PVA release agent

FWIW some of my mouldings had a plastic film simmilar to what andrew

described, but mine

was orange in colour and so easy to spot, and embedded in the resin in a few

spots, normally around complex

corners etc, i just sanded the offending bits out as i went, as you suggest

keith i believe it is a part of the

bagging process and small pieces are getting trapped in the resin



craig



--

rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.n
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 10:34 am Post subject: Removing PVA release agent

Hi Andrew



"Here is a link to some photos. It is in corners and crevices, so I

 	  Quote: 	
		   doubt it is packing tape."


	


OK I see what you are talking about. My plane had areas too like yours. I

think it is probably left over remnants of vacuum bag. Razor blade and a

few different tipped Exactos should rid you plane of most of it. Any areas

to be bonded you could take your time and razor out most and sand off the

rest. If it isn't going to be bonded to, don't kill yourself.



Ron P.

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