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Sight gage

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naumuk(at)alltel.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2008 5:50 pm Post subject: Sight gage

Anyone-

     How do you plumb a small header  tank so that you can have a "Sight gage" fuel indicator? Locker tanks outboard  and cental fuel pumps.

                                 do  not archive

 Bill Naumuk

Townville, Pa.

HDS 601MG/Corvair  95%

   [quote][b]

Gig Giacona

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1416
Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA

Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 1:51 pm Post subject: Re: Sight gage

Basically a port at the bottom and one at the top of the side facing the panel put a clear tube between them.  you will need to play with the position of the tube so you get a good reading.

_________________
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR

naumuk(at)alltel.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 3:03 pm Post subject: Sight gage

Gig, and everyone with a sight gage-

    It seems that every 8 gal header tank was plumbed differently. I've 

attached a sketch of what I think the layout in my case should look like. I 

searched the archives and not a whole hell of a lot to go on. Whaddya think?

                                                            Bill

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ch701builder

Joined: 07 Feb 2006
Posts: 119
Location: N38.9947,W105.1305,ALT. 9,100'

Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 3:37 pm Post subject: Sight gage

larry(at)macsmachine.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 3:55 pm Post subject: Sight gage

Bill Naumuk wrote:

[quote] Gig, and everyone with a sight gage-

    It seems that every 8 gal header tank was plumbed differently. I've 

 attached a sketch of what I think the layout in my case should look 

 like. I searched the archives and not a whole hell of a lot to go on. 

 Whaddya think?

                                                            Bill

 ---

leo(at)zuehlfield.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 4:40 pm Post subject: Sight gage

Bill,

  The sight gauge should look like the edited drawing attached, plumbed 

into the top and bottom of the tank.  Your "U" tube would not allow any 

fluid into the tube.  On the HDS demo plane in 1998 it was like my 

drawing.  The tubes came through the instrument panel, top and bottom, 

through grommets.  Gig is correct.



Blue Skies.



Leo Gates

N601Z - CH601HDS TDO

Rotax 912UL



Bill Naumuk wrote:

[quote] Gig, and everyone with a sight gage-

    It seems that every 8 gal header tank was plumbed differently. I've 

 attached a sketch of what I think the layout in my case should look 

 like. I searched the archives and not a whole hell of a lot to go on. 

 Whaddya think?

                                                            Bill

 ---

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jlatimer1(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 4:56 pm Post subject: Sight gage

Bill,

As several people have already pointed out your sight glass diagram will not work.  Gas will not get into the sight glass loop.  You need to attach the sight glass at the top and bottom of the tank.



My 8 gallon header tank came with two barbed connections at the top, a barbed connection near the bottom of the tank, and a threaded connection at the bottom of the tank.



I plumbed the sight glass between one of the top and the bottom barbed connection.  My wing tanks are plumbed to the other barbed connection at the top of the tank.  And the threaded connection at the bottom goes to the engine.



I've tried to attach the original documentation from Zenith on how to plumb the wing tanks to header tank.  It also shows the sight glass.



Everyone building an XL should get a kick out of the documentation that we got with our 601HDS kits.

Jerry

---- Bill Naumuk <naumuk(at)alltel.net> wrote: 

[quote] Gig, and everyone with a sight gage-

     It seems that every 8 gal header tank was plumbed differently. I've 

 attached a sketch of what I think the layout in my case should look like. I 

 searched the archives and not a whole hell of a lot to go on. Whaddya think?

                                                             Bill

 ---

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jlatimer1(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 5:08 pm Post subject: Sight gage

---- jlatimer1(at)cox.net wrote: 

[quote] Bill,

 As several people have already pointed out your sight glass diagram will not work.  Gas will not get into the sight glass loop.  You need to attach the sight glass at the top and bottom of the tank.

 My 8 gallon header tank came with two barbed connections at the top, a barbed connection near the bottom of the tank, and a threaded connection at the bottom of the tank.

 I plumbed the sight glass between one of the top and the bottom barbed connection.  My wing tanks are plumbed to the other barbed connection at the top of the tank.  And the threaded connection at the bottom goes to the engine.

 I've tried to attach the original documentation from Zenith on how to plumb the wing tanks to header tank.  It also shows the sight glass.

 Everyone building an XL should get a kick out of the documentation that we got with our 601HDS kits.

 Jerry

 ---- Bill Naumuk <naumuk(at)alltel.net> wrote: 

 > Gig, and everyone with a sight gage-

 >     It seems that every 8 gal header tank was plumbed differently. I've 

 > attached a sketch of what I think the layout in my case should look like. I 

 > searched the archives and not a whole hell of a lot to go on. Whaddya think?

 >                                                             Bill

 > ---

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naumuk(at)alltel.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 5:30 pm Post subject: Sight gage

All-

    Like I said, all the header tanks seem to have different in/outs. The 

stupid arrangement I portrayed is what I got with my tank.

    Since I have two outlets at the bottom of the tank, one is apparently 

worthless.

    I'm guessing that the alternative is to put a T at the top inlet, block 

off one of the bottom, run the main to one side of the T at the top, and the 

sight gauge between the other side of the top T and the uncapped bottom. 

Sketch attached. Once again, waddya think?

    XL builders have NO IDEA what HD/HDS people are talking about!!! I 

imagine the new 650 series will be sold from vending machines. Bless you, 

fellow sufferers! If it weren't for you people, my project would have been 

beer cans long ago. Not that that's necessarily a bad thing.

                                                            Bill

---

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professor71(at)HOTMAIL.CO
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 6:10 pm Post subject: Sight gage

Bill

One of the fittings at the bottom is for the fuel being pumped from the wing tank. The other one is used for the sight tube connection from the top nipple. Hope this helps.

John



[quote] From: naumuk(at)alltel.net

 To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Sight gage

 Date: Tue C 26 Aug 2008 21:29:07 -0400

 

 All-

     Like I said C all the header tanks seem to have different in/outs. The 

 stupid arrangement I portrayed is what I got with my tank.

     Since I have two outlets at the bottom of the tank C one is apparently 

 worthless.

     I'm guessing that the alternative is to put a T at the top inlet C block 

 off one of the bottom C run the main to one side of the T at the top C and the 

 sight gauge between the other side of the top T and the uncapped bottom. 

 Sketch attached. Once again C waddya think?

     XL builders have NO IDEA what HD/HDS people are talking about!!! I 

 imagine the new 650 series will be sold from vending machines. Bless you C 

 fellow sufferers! If it weren't for you people C my project would have been 

 beer cans long ago. Not that that's necessarily a bad thing.

                                                             Bill

 ---

jlatimer1(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 8:27 am Post subject: Sight gage

That will work.  As already posted you can run the fuel line from the wing tanks into the bottom inlet that you show blocked off.  This will eliminate a T fitting.



Jerry

---- Bill Naumuk <naumuk(at)alltel.net> wrote: 

[quote] All-

     Like I said, all the header tanks seem to have different in/outs. The 

 stupid arrangement I portrayed is what I got with my tank.

     Since I have two outlets at the bottom of the tank, one is apparently 

 worthless.

     I'm guessing that the alternative is to put a T at the top inlet, block 

 off one of the bottom, run the main to one side of the T at the top, and the 

 sight gauge between the other side of the top T and the uncapped bottom. 

 Sketch attached. Once again, waddya think?

     XL builders have NO IDEA what HD/HDS people are talking about!!! I 

 imagine the new 650 series will be sold from vending machines. Bless you, 

 fellow sufferers! If it weren't for you people, my project would have been 

 beer cans long ago. Not that that's necessarily a bad thing.

                                                             Bill

 ---

grs-pms(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 9:50 am Post subject: Sight gage

One concern about a fuel inlet on the bottom of the fuselage tank:  If the 

valve (or check valve in a fuel pump) leaks a little bit, all the fuel in 

the fuselage tank will try to drain back into the wing tanks.  With the 

inlet in the top of the fuselage tank, only the small amount of fuel in the 

line will leak back.  This is the reason I felt it necessary to relocate the 

inlet to the top of my tank.



George

---

naumuk(at)alltel.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 2:11 pm Post subject: Sight gage

Jerry-

    After a day to get everyone's input and think about it, I figure the way 

to plumb this puppy is in the attachment.

    I obviously don't (Or didn't) know jack about fluid dynamics, but I 

guess all you have to do is really think about it.

    The first logical assumption is that it's easier on the pump to drop the 

fuel in from the top rather than push it in from the bottom. Factor the 

strain pushing fuel up an extra 2' versus squirting it in from the side, 

along with the additional line under pressure (Which is a potential failure 

mode) and the strain on the pump is about equal, while the potential for 

pressurized failure is lessened.

    Your HD/HDS instructions came through fine. Eat your hearts out, XL 

people!

                                                            Bill

---

bryanmmartin

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1018

Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 4:07 pm Post subject: Sight gage

Unfortunately, your first  logical assumption would be wrong.   

Overall, the pump will be working harder pumping in to the top of the  

tank than it will pumping it in to the bottom. The back pressure on  

the pump depends entirely on the height of fuel above the pump, not on  

how many gallons are sitting above the pump. The pressure two feet  

below the surface in a 500 gallon tank is the same as two feet below  

the surface in a five gallon tank. Pumping in at the top, height of  

the fuel will always be the height to the top of the tank so the  

pressure will always be at its maximum. Pumping in at the bottom, the  

pressure will start out low and increase as the fuel level in the tank  

increases. But this is no big deal, just use a pump that will deliver  

more pressure than the maximum it will see in this application.



The one advantage to pumping in to the top is that you won't need a  

check valve to prevent the fuel from draining back to the wing tank



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Jerry-

   After a day to get everyone's input and think about it, I figure  

 the way to plumb this puppy is in the attachment.

   I obviously don't (Or didn't) know jack about fluid dynamics, but  

 I guess all you have to do is really think about it.

   The first logical assumption is that it's easier on the pump to  

 drop the fuel in from the top rather than push it in from the  

 bottom. Factor the strain pushing fuel up an extra 2' versus  

 squirting it in from the side, along with the additional line under  

 pressure (Which is a potential failure mode) and the strain on the  

 pump is about equal, while the potential for pressurized failure is  

 lessened.

   Your HD/HDS instructions came through fine. Eat your hearts out,  

 XL people!

                                                           Bill


	




-- 

Bryan Martin

N61BM, CH 601 XL,

RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.

do not archive.

_________________
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
do not archive.

naumuk(at)alltel.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 5:36 pm Post subject: Sight gage

Bryan-

    After sleeping on it, that's what I figured, too. Since the 105 has a 

built in check valve, I'm thus best off with the arrangement in 

theattachment to my last e-mail.

                                                        Bill

---

Al Hays

Joined: 01 Oct 2007
Posts: 42
Location: Gore, VA

Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 6:46 pm Post subject: Sight gage

Bill,



It seems to me that your sight gage will work only while the engine is not running if you tee into the line feeding the tank from the pump as shown in your sketch.  However, I have to wonder if one of those fittings on the bottom might actually be connected to a tube extending to near the top inside the tank.  That would let the sight gage "breath" properly with the existing fittings.  If not, you probably can make an adaptor to achieve the same thing.  How that would be done would, of course, depend on the type and size of those fittings on the tank bottom.  Hope this helps.  

Al Hays

601XL N5892H reserved

 

On Aug 27, 2008, at 9:34 PM, Bill Naumuk wrote:

[quote]

bryanmmartin

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1018

Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 7:33 pm Post subject: Sight gage

If you mean a Facet 105, I believe that the check valve in this pump  

is designed to allow a small amount of back flow in order to let the  

fuel line depressurize after shut down. If you use this pump to feed  

to the bottom of the header tank, you will have to remember to shut  

off the valves leading from the wing tanks to prevent the header tank  

from gradually draining into them.

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Bryan-

   After sleeping on it, that's what I figured, too. Since the 105  

 has a built in check valve, I'm thus best off with the arrangement  

 in theattachment to my last e-mail.

                                                       Bill


	




-- 

Bryan Martin

N61BM, CH 601 XL,

RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.

do not archive.

_________________
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
do not archive.

hills(at)sunflower.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 4:43 am Post subject: Sight gage

Gosh, wouldn't I feel silly if my header tank ran dry because my check valve

failed and allowed fuel to drain from the header tank in flight. I think I

will just keep my top-of-the-tank fuel pump discharge tube in it's current

location, even if it does take a bit more pressure to pump the fuel up

there.



Roger

--

bryanmmartin

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1018

Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 5:09 am Post subject: Sight gage

It probably wouldn't drain out much during a flight, but after sitting overnight, a significant amount may drain back. As I recall, the reverse flow rate is something like half a gallon an hour. I use two of these pumps in parallel, one main and one as a backup, it works just fine with no additional check valves needed. I would probably pump the fuel to the top of a header tank if I had that configuration myself. One less thing to keep track of.

[quote]

 [quote][b]

_________________
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
do not archive.

naumuk(at)alltel.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 2:18 pm Post subject: Sight gage

Bryan+Roger-

     1. At 1/2 gal/hr, if I fail to  monitor my fuel situation in flight and transfer as needed, my fault- pilot  error. If the loss is worse than that, I'll replumb.

     2. I was programmed many moons  ago in flight training to shut the fuel cocks off at shutdown. However,  this step will be a good addition to the "601MG" operational  checklist.

     Thanks, guys. Full snail's  pace ahead!

                                                                     Bill

                                       do not  archive 

 [quote]   ---

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