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stranfaer(at)btinternet.c
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 Posted: Thu Apr 18, 2013 1:16 am Post subject: Prices and Europa For Sale |
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My oh My what an emotive subject!
Having just been exposed to this situation, I do feel somewhat qualified to pass comment. I have of course to date been a buyer of two Europas and the seller of one.
Point 1 : There is no price or value that can be given to any aircraft in particular, each aircraft is worth differing amounts and it is worth exactly what the owner is prepared to decide to pass on the keys for "no more and no less" , of course there is the possibility that the prospective purchaser may not agree with the price a vendor is asking, its his prerogative and at this point he can simply walk away, so of course can the vendor! Each to his own. Our environment really is not akin to the world of Arfer Daley secondhand cars and never will be.
Point 2 : There may of course be a number extraneous circumstances resulting in an alleged bargain, a prospective purchaser chancing his hand and offering daft and silly amounts for the aircraft for example, a high hour tired engine and or airframe, previous aircraft damage or accident, a model less desirable than a current one, VP Prop, Tri Gear - Mono, perhaps the owner having a run of bad luck financially or medically and having to sell within a short period of time, etc etc there are many reasons!
As for missing a cheap aircraft, well if its missed its gone, vamoose. Maybe another one will turn up maybe it wont. Referring to point 2 there are many reasons an aircraft may appear to be cheap or cheaper than others. People that desire cheap aircraft are usually the ones that have very little knowledge of the time effort and ability required to build, maintain or indeed to refurbish a Europa aircraft.
As we all know these are the same owners that the LAA are most concerned about as they simply don't understand the fuel systems, the operation and the required maintenance of our aircraft, because they did not build or work on it extensively, there have of course been several well documented accidents to date to prove it. These regrettably are the same group looking and searching for that elusive "bargain" and IMHO do not understand either the aircraft or etiquette and furthermore our own close knit Europa owning community!
And to conclude:
A Rolls Royce is clearly worth more than a VW Golf (both made by same company) but both still a motor car! I am still searching for a 2 year old Rolls Ghost for £10,000 "I am not holding my breath though" and hope I dont find one with differing chassis numbers at both ends or one that has been in a total loss accident.
rgds to you all
David Joyce
The other one 
Sent to you from David Joyce
From: "Trevpond(at)aol.com" <Trevpond(at)aol.com>
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, 16 April 2013, 12:13
Subject: Re: Re: Europa For Sale
To Build a 914 Trigear, include a very good panel with a customised interior will cost £60,000 for the bits! I know of two being built at the moment that will cost around £100,000 finished.
I would remind you Guys about a Europa that was recently put on sale and the owner was smothered in dreamers and others looking for free flights who thought they could buy the aircraft for £20,000. The syndicates are the best, 5 lads all looking for a flight for free!!
I agree that some of the old Classics were cheap to build, were fairly basic with a 912 engine and gave amazing performance and so much pleasure to their owners, but a Europa these days costs three times as much to build.
Trev
G-LINN
In a message dated 16/04/2013 11:51:26 GMT Daylight Time, alancarteresq(at)onetel.net writes:
| Quote: | --> Europa-List message posted by: "Alan Carter" <alancarteresq(at)onetel.net>
Hi Roland.
It is hard from a photo, but the fit of the inspection panels looks neat.
i have seen some untidy ones, and that's gives a little clue as to the build, it has a air vent on the fin, what,s this for,?
A fixed trim tab on the aileron, so needs a little tweaking.
Would like to see the Instrument Panel, Please post it on the forum,??
Alan
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=398700#398700
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budyerly(at)msn.com
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| Posted: Thu Apr 18, 2013 12:27 pm Post subject: Prices and Europa For Sale |
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<?xml:namespace prefix="v" /><?xml:namespace prefix="o" /><![endif]--> There are buyers and sellers. I did a stint as a broker for AG Edwards and learned how value is more subjective than analytical.
Same in aircraft.
I have had excellent results in selling aircraft I have finished and trimmed out. However, the fact is that the original owner paid $100,000 USD to build his aircraft (with assistance) and was disappointed to only get $80,000 three years later.
Keep in mind, the plane had no scratches, dents, stains, chips, and had a beautiful leather interior with embroidery. The panel, a solid VFR EFIS panel was clean, ergonomic, well labeled and designed for quick maintenance. The airframe had large, comfortable access holes, and you could eat off the engine compartment. The log books were perfectly documented, routine service was thoroughly documented, all factory kit mods, builder mods, and SBs were documented in a separate notebook in detail. The engine had a complete and accurate SB,SI, and SL listing for the specific engine and there was complete wiring diagrams and plug diagrams along with a printed notebook and DVD of all the build documentation for the maintainer. The aircraft stops folks walking at an airshow to admire its fit and finish.
This aircraft was sold to a new owner when his wife looked in it and said, "You can buy this one", so negociations ceased after that.
However, recently a young man delivered an aircraft to me with a massive fuel leak in the tank. (He got a ferry pilot dumb enough to fly it with a known fuel leak.) The plane was a steal at $35,000 he assured me, as it only had just over 40 hours on it.
My pre fuel tank exchange inspection (basically one of my annal retentive annuals) indicated a total 12 Immediate action grounding items (Red X to those military guys) and 15 improper servicing, installation or wear problems. There was no documentation on the plane, the log books stated only a conditional inspection had been made over the last 3 years. The interior was painted (Lowe's house paint) with two adequate cushions. Instrumentation was minimal but working.
The problems ranged from Annex E items out of tollerance (stab only had 9 degrees up, ailerons 15, rudder movement of 15 right and 40 left), improper Mod 52 install, ommitted structural reinforcement on the forward lift sockets, loose tail planes, a gascolator mounted 7 inches above the fuel tank bottom with an improper fuel pump (SB 4). The gascolator seal was weak and the fuel pump would not pull the gas from a level of the saddle height (about 2.5 gallons remaining per side) to the engine at all. The servicing problems were tire wear, improper wheel bearing install, mass balance arm corrosion, excessive drag in the pitch system, engine mount corrosion, etc.
We put 305 man hours into the aircraft just to make it safe. The Jabiru engine was another story. The aircraft left with the same ferry pilot. He nearly stalled on takeoff because he failed to listen to me about the new control throws. He pulled full aft stick at 50KIAS to rotate and got a surprise.
I fell for the same cheap airplane buy myself. I bought a flying used Europa trigear. Everyone commented on what a great airplane it was and it was a really good deal. The door came off while the owner transported it back by trailer from engine servicing down at Lockwood, after the door loss incident the owner decided to sell, so the aircraft was not flyable when I saw it. The wings were not available for inspection either... A local builder assistance center assured me it was a great aircraft just the door repair. Soon a previous Europa sales man told me "what ever you do, don't stall it". So I began a detailed inspection and found all the problems, the comment was, oh that is just the Europa, nobody can build one straight, you got a great deal, just fly it, however with one wing at 2.6 degrees and the other at 3.1 degrees incidence, I became suspect of my great deal. I disregarded the builder support guys opinion and started from nose to tail and fixed and upgraded everything to the Europa build manual and my own standards. So, $15000 in paint and upholstery later and 450 of my own man hours over 4 years (excluding paint, upholstery, engine upgrades and constant speed prop) it is the nicest flying aircraft, it's easy to maintain and is comfortable cruising at 30 mpg. The only thing original and not touched is the rudder hinges. We did so much to it, my FSDO saw me reskinning the wings and gave me authorization to apply a new builder kit number so as to be the builder rather than the second owner. I have not sold the aircraft because it flies so well now. That aircraft is 12AY which is also LSA capable. Was it worth it...You decide, I've put it behind me and help new owners build time until they break it.
I find you get what you pay for. A typical show stopper Europa costs about $100,000 for a normal solid VFR bird (any builder assist not included). Used price is normally 75% of the build price (fit and finish rated at a 7 out of 10) in a good market. When guys ask what their bird is worth I give the following guidelines:
I deduct $10,000 for a 300+ hour engine if the log books don't indicate proper commissioning, periodic service or is over the five year service interval.
I deduct $2,000 for incomplete log books.
I deduct $10,000 if the paint is not an aircraft quality paint or high end auto paint (you get what you pay for).
I deduct $8000 if the interior is not fully and finely upholstered, free of stains and cuts, and the panel not painted to match.
I deduct the full price of an instrument that is not operating or meeting spec.
If I find one build error, and I normally find many, or ill fitting doors and cowl, that is time and material.
So a good airframe 3-5 years old and 912S engine with good logs, a minimal VFR panel (Com, Transponder, Engine Mgmt system and Small EFIS) with no interior but cushions and good exterior paint should yield about $55,000 to $65,000 as a good deal.
Motor gliders are more valuable and can fetch a bit more as do LSA models.
However, when the market is down as it is now, some of these aircraft are going for $10,000 less than that for those owners needing to move the plane out of the expensive airport hangar for that new addition to the house for the grand kids...
A partially built kit will yield far less than what the owner has in it. I have seen an assembled kit go for only $15,000 (no firewall forward)
This is just my opinion. Jeff and I have not hooked up for me to fly the plane and evaluate it, but it is a good looking and running plane. A steal at his price if I say so myself. If I had put it on the stand at Sun 'n Fun I think it would have sold.
Jeff, I have a guy looking, and will send him your way. He is about your size and should be a good "fit".
Best Regards,
Bud Yerly
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