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OFF TOPIC Re: Missing man formation

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mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 28, 2008 3:16 pm Post subject: OFF TOPIC Re: Missing man formation

Pappy, I originally wrote a two page answer to your comments and

addressed some replies made by others as well. But then I decided that I

was just adding more fuel to the fire, turning this into an even bigger

fiasco than it already is.  This whole topic should have never come up

on the YAK List.  The very question that was originally asked, should

have never been asked, on the YAK list.  We should all be asking

ourselves why it was in the first place, and how we can prevent people

in the future from coming here asking for such support to begin with.  I

submit that if the RPA had their own forum, that would naturally be the

place to go, and such discussion as this might be more on-topic than

say... Here.  



But since you felt compelled to write what you did, and since you are

clearly an expert on the matter, and since you have flown so many

missing man formations yourself, would you mind please telling me what

branch of military aviation you received your pilots wings from? 



Mark Bitterlich

  



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cjpilot710(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 28, 2008 6:12 pm Post subject: OFF TOPIC Re: Missing man formation

Did I ever say or infer that I received service wings?

 I guess if the point here is that I should some how qualify as an expert by  a back ground check so be it.

 I hope I didn't claim being an expert only my view on what is really a  subject of the heart.

  

 I had my first flight lesson at age 15 in the CAP.

 By the time I graduated from high school, I had my commercial and  instructors rating.

 After two years (and 2,500 hours) as a flight instructor, I got a job  flying a DC-3 in the Bahamas.

 When the daft board said my number was coming up, I enlisted in the  Army.

 I requested helicopter school. (at the time I had a commercial helicopter  ticket)

 I flunk the eye test with 20/24 in my left eye and the Army decided to make  me a missile man.

 (As an E-4 I got 3 hours in the left seat of a C-124.  Great  story!)

 I was honorably discharged 36 months later and went to work as a navigator  for PAA in Jan. 66.

 After 20 years there flying 707 & 747s as a copilot, UAL brought the  Pacific division and me and 429 other pilots went over with it.

 I flew there first as a flight engineer than as captain on 727,757/767,  777, and 747-400 with UAL until age 60 retirement. 

  

 That was my career in a nut shell.

 My gold wings may have been earned in the dull environment of an airlines  training facility BUT they were "chick magnates" just the same.  And  the last time I looked, airplanes flew under the same rules and in the same ever  changing sky.

  

 As I look back on all the missing man formations I've done, I realize I've  never done them in anything but military machines. 

 (I guess I've unconsciously drawn a line somewhere there).

 But if I get the drift of your question, that does not qualify me as  appropriate to participate. And I get the impression that I could not change  that impression.  (sort of like talking to a democrat) 

  

 But where was the military on the days I flew over the ceremonies for the  flying vets of WW2,  Korea, or VN?  

 Where were their squadrons mates?

 If no one is to honor them, than no honor should be given?

  

 According to legend the first missing man formation was flown for von  Richthofen  in WW1 by the RAF.  I have read in other places, that  wasn't so, that just a wreath was dropped over his field.  I don't know the  truth. If the legend is true, than the "honor" was not flown for a departed  squadron mate, but for a deadly adversary.  I guess such dichotomies were  normal in that new age of war fair.

  

 "Imitation is the greatest compliment"  

  

 You have the last word.

  

 Jim "Pappy" Goolsby

  

  

  

  

  In a message dated 10/28/2008 7:18:30 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil writes:

 [quote]-->    Yak-List message posted by: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14    64E" <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil>



Pappy, I originally wrote a two    page answer to your comments and

addressed some replies made by others as    well. But then I decided that I

was just adding more fuel to the fire,    turning this into an even bigger

fiasco than it already is.  This    whole topic should have never come up

on the YAK List.  The very    question that was originally asked, should

have never been asked, on the    YAK list.  We should all be asking

ourselves why it was in the first    place, and how we can prevent people

in the future from coming here asking    for such support to begin with.  I

submit that if the RPA had their    own forum, that would naturally be the

place to go, and such discussion as    this might be more on-topic than

say... Here.  



But since you    felt compelled to write what you did, and since you are

clearly an expert    on the matter, and since you have flown so many

missing man formations    yourself, would you mind please telling me what

branch of military aviation    you received your pilots wings from? 



Mark Bitterlich

     



--

DANDMAZ(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 28, 2008 7:20 pm Post subject: OFF TOPIC Re: Missing man formation

Thank you Jim.

 I did not know that we at RPA had to  have  military wings   to fly a missing man formation at fly-in  airshows or RPA events as Mark Bitterlich G CIV DET CHERRY POINT,MALS-14  64E  has stated. I think we need a answer from  RPA  admin on  this missing man formation subject, do you have to have military wings to fly a  missing man formation?

  

 Donald Allan Andrews

 RPA Member#15

 [quote]   ---

vectorwarbirds(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 28, 2008 7:25 pm Post subject: OFF TOPIC Re: Missing man formation

Why don't you guys use these guys as a guide, and stop all this on the Yak List!

 

 http://www.missingman.org

 

 Bunndini

 

   

 

   

 

 --

czech6(at)mesanetworks.ne
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 28, 2008 8:11 pm Post subject: OFF TOPIC Re: Missing man formation

You are a scary man.



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mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 28, 2008 11:05 pm Post subject: OFF TOPIC Re: Missing man formation

Gee, it's a funny thing, but I can't remember ever saying that!  

 

Could it be that you just made that up?  Or could be it be that you just can't read?  Or are you just trying to stir up bull-dung?  

 

By all means, go ask the RPA.  After all, the RPA knows more about the military than the military does about itself.  

 

GREAT IDEA Donald.  Now go put on your flight suit and hum real loudly like an airplane engine sounds like.  Seems this is getting personal.  But you see, I draw another line when people start accusing me of saying things that I never said.  I actually do take that personally.  I'm working on being able to ignore such nonsense... but I am weak.  

 

Mark Bitterlich

 

 

 

 

 

 



________________________________



From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com on behalf of Andrews

Sent: Tue 10/28/2008 11:17 PM

To: yak-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC Re: Missing man formation

Thank you Jim.

I did not know that we at RPA had to have  military wings  to fly a missing man formation at fly-in airshows or RPA events as Mark Bitterlich G CIV DET CHERRY POINT,MALS-14 64E  has stated. I think we need a answer from  RPA  admin on this missing man formation subject, do you have to have military wings to fly a missing man formation?

 

Donald Allan Andrews

RPA Member#15



	---

mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 28, 2008 11:10 pm Post subject: OFF TOPIC Re: Missing man formation

This subject should NEVER have come up, been discussed, or even been ASKED for, on this list. 

 

You are 100% right.  

 

Mark



________________________________



From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com on behalf of vectorwarbirds(at)aol.com

Sent: Tue 10/28/2008 11:25 PM

To: yak-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC Re: Missing man formation

Why don't you guys use these guys as a guide, and stop all this on the Yak List!



http://www.missingman.org



Bunndini



--

viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2008 6:19 am Post subject: OFF TOPIC Re: Missing man formation

Geez, this horse is dead and pounded into dust. Opinions are like a_ _ _ _ __s, everybody has one. Even the Missing Man Foundation that covers the west coast states they fly to honor departed veterans that served this Nation (USA-not slighting the other countries patriots). As for having Â military wings and flying formation tactical or ACM, they help. It is a skill set/ muscle memory that is developed and reinforced early in life not at age 50 or greater. Â But as we all know around the RPA that is not necessary so why is it an issue. Just having the money to buy and operate a military warbirdÂ  along with showing up and flying with â€œIPsâ€ at a few formation clinics along with passing the â€œCheck Rideâ€ with a PPA/ current Class III medical in your wallet is enough to qualify to fly formation. To reduce it down to itsâ€™ most basic term.  

Doc   

       

From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Andrews

 Sent: Tuesday, October 28, 2008 10:18 PM

 To: yak-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC Re: Missing man formation  

  

  

     

Thank you Jim.  

    

I did not know that we at RPA had to have  military wings  to fly a missing man formation at fly-in airshows or RPA events as Mark Bitterlich G CIV DET CHERRY POINT,MALS-14 64E  has stated. I think we need a answer from  RPA  admin on this missing man formation subject, do you have to have military wings to fly a missing man formation?  

    

   

    

Donald Allan Andrews  

    

RPA Member#15  

  [quote]    

---

czech6(at)mesanetworks.ne
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2008 7:01 am Post subject: OFF TOPIC Re: Missing man formation

You need to get a life. Mark, asking is no sin. We all get it now, you made

it perfectly clear that once a marine, always a marine. We now know not to

ask you. This is not brain surgery, this is not like rushing into a burning

building to save a child. It is simply flying an airplane, or driving a

truck or your lawn mower. The guy needed a favor and asked. 

Before we let him unsubscribe, what say we drop it.



--

dhanshew(at)cinci.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2008 11:18 am Post subject: OFF TOPIC Re: Missing man formation

Take it for what it's worth, (because it makes me no nevermind) but that's 

why I gave up on this outfit after the Yak Pilots Club went teats up. Used 

to be a fun crowd. By the way, Hey Pappy. Glad to see you still hangin' in 

there. Keep em' flying.



Wild Bill

---

czech6(at)mesanetworks.ne
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2008 12:16 pm Post subject: OFF TOPIC Re: Missing man formation

Amen!



--

vectorwarbirds(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2008 1:02 pm Post subject: OFF TOPIC Re: Missing man formation

Wild Bill,

 Here Here!  I quit as well.  Tried of the BS and the clique, too many egos running around unchecked!

 

 See you in the sky!!

 

 'Bunndini'

 

   

 

   

 

 --

mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2008 1:45 pm Post subject: OFF TOPIC Re: Missing man formation

Well actually, my typical presence on this list server is normally

reserved in trying to help people like yourself when they have problems

with their aircraft.  I've written a number of articles on the

electrical power system, troubleshooting and repair of the landing gear

system on YAK-50's, modifying the tail wheel lock on YAK-50's, how to

repair DNP-200 relays, etc.  So for the most part that has been "my

life" on this list server. 



Every once in awhile I rise to the surface and get involved with

discussions on why you do or do not need to wear flights suits in order

to fly formation, or parachutes for that matter.  Another great event in

history was the discussion on Marvel Mystery Oil.  That one still makes

me chuckle.  My favorite expression is: "Don't Pee down my neck and tell

me it's raining."  Meaning, I don't hold very well with lies and

mistruths.  



But sadly, I do remember coming back from Vietnam and getting spit on

and called a baby killer at the Philadelphia airport.  Thus I have a

special place in my heart for people who's freedom is taken so much for

granted that they would actually argue against two active duty Aircrew

service members (and one retired one) concerning what is and what is not

a military tradition and should be reserved as such.  



So...."I need to get a life"?  That's another term I heard from people

who hated the military so much that they would do anything to dishonor

them in any way that they could.  I don't know who the "we" is that you

refer to when you write, because Bill you really only have the right to

speak for yourself.  Regardless, you are perfectly correct in saying:

"Once a Marine, Always a Marine".  Add the words Semper Fidelis if you

would like as well.  All perfectly correct. Something that unless you

are one, or are a former one ... is doubtful that you will every truly

grasp or understand.  It is about honor, loyalty and Esprit de Corps.

I'm proud of my past and present association with the Marines Bill, and

no one on this planet could make me feel otherwise and with no

disrespect intended, that means least of all yourself.  



Yes Bill... We in the military "get it" as well.  There are some people

that no matter how much you try to explain to them, no matter how hard

you try to make them realize how you feel and why something is important

to you, just do not GET IT.  This IS about people running into burning

buildings.  This IS about saving a child.  This is about the folks that

flew military aircraft that gave their lives for their country.

Yourself and other folks just "don't get it" and deny that it ever was

that, is not now treated like that, nor should be.  Instead it is no

different than driving a truck or a lawnmower and is simply just doing a

favor for a friend.  



I am more than willing to drop it.  As soon as you and others stop

taking pot shots at myself and others who feel the way they do for a

darn good reason.  You see, I am all done being spit on and walking away

with my head down ashamed.  Now I rise to every occasion of this nature

and stand right in your face and tell you what I think.  



Check 6 Bill.  Something every military pilot does religiously.    



Mark Bitterlich 

You're DAMN right "Once a Marine".   



 



--

MarkWDavis

Joined: 03 Jan 2007
Posts: 104
Location: Syracuse, KS

Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2008 3:20 pm Post subject: OFF TOPIC Re: Missing man formation

Another tradition which traces its roots to military aviators is the use of 

the phrase "KNOCK IT OFF" when a situation is getting out of hand.   It's 

probably applicable to all contributors on this (off)topic.



Mark Davis

N44YK

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