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Choosing Z-Diagram base

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longg(at)pjm.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Nov 12, 2008 12:10 pm Post subject: Choosing Z-Diagram base

I am building a system which will contain a Lycoming 360 with dual

electronic ignition and one alternator. 



I have looked at Z-12, Z-19 and Z-28 as an addendum. 



Which one or combination of these diagrams would support a good

solution? I read somewhere in the pages that dual electronic ignition

would best be served by two batteries.



Thanks,

Glenn

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Beemer

Joined: 26 Aug 2006
Posts: 87
Location: Middle Georgia

Posted: Wed Nov 12, 2008 3:22 pm Post subject: Choosing Z-Diagram base

Good evening John,

I will try to contribute something back to the list, as it has given me so

much in the last months of my build.



First question: has the engine become electrically dependent based on the

electronic ignition?



Second question: Do you physically have room to mount 2 batteries of decent

capacity in your airframe? Will your CG support such an install?



Third question: What are your general, overall goals for the electrics? I

think we all come to similar conclusions here, but...



What kind of loads are you expecting in your airplane? Maybe catalog a list

of the installed equipment. This won't necessarily change your diagram, but

it will determine the size of battery that a) will fit in the frame, and b)

is available in the market.



I studied Z-19RB quite a bit, and ended up not using it for various reasons.

That does not nullify it's validity in any way; it just didn't work for me.



I designed a simple system that provides for an acceptable safety margin,

with known risks, AND a plan for that inevitable failure. This, in and of

itself, was the golden nugget that AEC provided. It's made me think!



Don't forget, Bob's diagrams are only examples of what can be done. You can

mix and match as your needs are met. I did just that. I'm a fan of

simplicity, but others like their gadgets. Each approach has its virtues, so

you need to design around what you're comfortable with. Think about failure

modes, and how you'll deal with them when there's no more altitude,

airspeed, or ideas left.



To be continued...



Bradley



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_________________
Beemer
KF2 (and now an M3!)
Suzuki G10 three-banger
Middle Georgia

nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Nov 12, 2008 7:14 pm Post subject: Choosing Z-Diagram base

At 03:07 PM 11/12/2008 -0500, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



I am building a system which will contain a Lycoming 360 with dual

electronic ignition and one alternator.



I have looked at Z-12, Z-19 and Z-28 as an addendum.



Which one or combination of these diagrams would support a good

solution? I read somewhere in the pages that dual electronic ignition

would best be served by two batteries.


	


   . . . that statement is pretty old . . . when folks

   were still installing a lot of vacuum pumps. Do you

   plan a vacuum system or all electric?



   If all electric, have you done a load analysis to

   see how much power you need for comfortable completion

   of flight with the main alternator out? You mentioned

   Z-12 but consider also, Z-13/8. This is an exceedingly

   light and inexpensive way to make sure you have electrons

   to keep an engine running. I suspect you can trim an

   e-bus load down to 8A or less. Keep in mind too that

   you don't need to run both electronic ignitions all

   the time. During alternator-out operations, you can

   drop to one ignition with very little loss of performance

   which still holds a second system in reserve.



   Bob  . . .

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bicyclop(at)pacbell.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 13, 2008 9:54 pm Post subject: Choosing Z-Diagram base

We found a way to not have any electrons for keeping the engine alive. 

Easy enough not to have our problem, but very critical that you do it 

right. The fat wire from the battery to the contactor shorted out on a 

brake line and filled the cabin with smoke. Shutting off the master 

didn't help since it was downstream of the short. Dragged the battery 

down to 5 volts. We do have one magneto and that's what kept it running 

long enough to get on the ground. Very, very important that this wire 

not be allowed to short, especially if both of your ignitions are on it.

Pax,

Ed Holyoke

Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 <nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net>

 At 03:07 PM 11/12/2008 -0500, you wrote:

> 

>

> I am building a system which will contain a Lycoming 360 with dual

> electronic ignition and one alternator.

>

> I have looked at Z-12, Z-19 and Z-28 as an addendum.

>

> Which one or combination of these diagrams would support a good

> solution? I read somewhere in the pages that dual electronic ignition

> would best be served by two batteries.

   . . . that statement is pretty old . . . when folks

   were still installing a lot of vacuum pumps. Do you

   plan a vacuum system or all electric?

   If all electric, have you done a load analysis to

   see how much power you need for comfortable completion

   of flight with the main alternator out? You mentioned

   Z-12 but consider also, Z-13/8. This is an exceedingly

   light and inexpensive way to make sure you have electrons

   to keep an engine running. I suspect you can trim an

   e-bus load down to 8A or less. Keep in mind too that

   you don't need to run both electronic ignitions all

   the time. During alternator-out operations, you can

   drop to one ignition with very little loss of performance

   which still holds a second system in reserve.

   Bob  . . .

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longg(at)pjm.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 8:28 am Post subject: Choosing Z-Diagram base

Et al, 



Thanks for your suggestions. My e-bus load will easily fall below 8A

with one ignition and one Dynon running. The Z-13/8 may be a great

opportunity to save weight, money and still keep the lights on. Other

than the dual electronic ignition my system has no special requirements.



I'll check it out.



Glenn



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longg(at)pjm.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 9:35 am Post subject: Choosing Z-Diagram base

Two questions on Z13-8...



I like the design. My engine comes with an 80 amp internally regulated

alternator. Assuming its use, but not yet needing 80 amps (may add

air-conditioning later), may I reduce the current at the ANL using say,

a 50 amp ANL? I am assuming the shunt would be 80 AMP coming off the

Alt. 



Does B & C offer a product to monitor/switch (from DC Power Master sw)

an alternator that is already internally regulated? 



Thanks



--

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nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Nov 30, 2008 9:14 am Post subject: Choosing Z-Diagram base

At 11:33 AM 11/17/2008, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



Two questions on Z13-8...



I like the design. My engine comes with an 80 amp internally regulated

alternator. Assuming its use, but not yet needing 80 amps (may add

air-conditioning later), may I reduce the current at the ANL using say,

a 50 amp ANL? I am assuming the shunt would be 80 AMP coming off the

Alt.


	


   No, the ANL or any other protective device is intended to

   open under extreme stress of faulting a wire. It's not

   a controlling device to change or limit the effects of

   your alternator.



   Aside from weight and size, there's nothing wrong with

   having a "too big" alternator. There's a bunch of C-150/

   C-152 flying with 60A alternators! Lots of OBAM aircraft

   with Continental engines use salvaged 60A alternators

   from a Cessna even if their power requirements are a hand-full

   of amps.



 	  Quote: 	
		  Does B & C offer a product to monitor/switch (from DC Power Master sw)

an alternator that is already internally regulated?


	


   Any switch (including those sold by B&B) will control

   an alternator that is controllable. Do you know the

   brand and part number of the alternator supplied?

   Are there instructions with it that indicate the alternator

   is controllable?

        Bob . . .



        ----------------------------------------)

        ( . . .  a long habit of not thinking   )

        ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )

        ( appearance of being right . . .       )

        (                                       )

        (                  -Thomas Paine 1776-  )

        ----------------------------------------

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