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eagerlee

Joined: 28 Jan 2006
Posts: 35

Posted: Sat Feb 10, 2007 3:46 pm Post subject: unbelievable!!!

someone bid 100,000 on the RV-10 (item #  180081108309) on e-bay.  Check out the winner's feedback and  see if you can imagine a nightmare deal in the making. It just keeps getting  curiouser and curiouser.

    [quote][b]

Tim Olson

Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2879

Posted: Sat Feb 10, 2007 4:09 pm Post subject: unbelievable!!!

I think it's time we all bow our heads for a moment of silence

and perhaps a moment of prayer.  "Lord please help keep this

aircraft from affecting our insurance records."



Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying

do not archive

eagerlee wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   someone bid 100,000 on the RV-10 (item # 180081108309) on e-bay.  Check 

 out the winner's feedback and see if you can imagine a nightmare deal in 

 the making. It just keeps getting curiouser and curiouser.

sean(at)hangerg.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Feb 10, 2007 4:43 pm Post subject: unbelievable!!!

I think it just proves that PT Barnum was correct. "There's a sucker born

every Minute". 



--

rv10builder(at)bellsouth.
Guest

Posted: Sat Feb 10, 2007 4:47 pm Post subject: unbelievable!!!

Looks like a comic book trader decided to buy an RV-10?  The likely 

answer is that a con in Nigeria hijacked this eBay account and will try 

to work a "if I send you a check for $120K will you wire me $20K back 

and I'll be there to pick up the kit..."



do not archive



eagerlee wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   someone bid 100,000 on the RV-10 (item # 180081108309) on e-bay.  

 Check out the winner's feedback and see if you can imagine a nightmare 

 deal in the making. It just keeps getting curiouser and curiouser.

 *

 *

Tim Olson

Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2879

Posted: Sat Feb 10, 2007 5:09 pm Post subject: unbelievable!!!

Considering the seller fell for the whole concept of that purchase

in the first place, this may be a great target for the Nigerian

hijackers. 



do not archive

rv10builder wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 Looks like a comic book trader decided to buy an RV-10?  The likely 

 answer is that a con in Nigeria hijacked this eBay account and will try 

 to work a "if I send you a check for $120K will you wire me $20K back 

 and I'll be there to pick up the kit..."

 

 do not archive

 

 eagerlee wrote:

> someone bid 100,000 on the RV-10 (item # 180081108309) on e-bay.  

> Check out the winner's feedback and see if you can imagine a nightmare 

> deal in the making. It just keeps getting curiouser and curiouser.

> *

AV8ORJWC

Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 1149
Location: Aurora, Oregon "Home of VANS"

Posted: Sat Feb 10, 2007 5:20 pm Post subject: unbelievable!!!

"Amen."



Now imagine two adults, one a physician each investing two years and

full time. That's somewhere between 2,000 and 8,000 man-hours and all

they have to show is all of the cleco's installed.  First thing that

came to mind is thank heaven they did not set any rivets.



As a favorite movie star said on the big screen to me..."A man has to

know his limitations".



I am all for improvements in safety, aesthetics, and function but trying

to turn a 92" prop with 600 BHP will increase drag by what %?  Guess Ken

Scott's news article on Flutter and VNE authored by Ken Krueger needs a

second reading at bedtime tonight before my next prayers.  Now this is

one kit that will need static and dynamic balancing before flight.



Did anyone learn who made the PSRU?



John Cox

the Turbanator #40600

--

rv10(at)internode.on.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Feb 10, 2007 6:14 pm Post subject: unbelievable!!!

Hey all,



A bit of amateur investigation work here.  I make absolutely no claims 

about its accuracy.



Buyers nickname : docrw



Google "docrw" finds (among other things):

http://www.homebuilt.org/directory/quickie.html



Pointing to a David Hiatt (email docrw(at)yahoo.com) as an owner of Super 

Quickie 2 N3223X which has since been deregistered, but if you do the 

N-number lookup, his address here corresponds with the location on an 

Ebay item he has for sale (#250082609702).

<http://registry.faa.gov/aircraftinquiry/NNumSQL.asp?verified=1&NNumbertxt=3223x>



Google "David Hiatt aircraft" finds him as owner (?builder) of Super 

Quickie 2 N34DQ:

<http://www.mykitplane.com/Planes/planeDetail.cfm?PlaneID=495>

<http://www.mykitplane.com/Planes/photoGalleryList2.cfm?AlbumID 60>



N-number lookup on N34DQ indicated it has recently been sold.

<http://registry.faa.gov/aircraftinquiry/NNumSQL.asp?verified=1&NNumbertxt=34DQ>



This is a quick summary of a lot of searches.  I think this is probably 

the guy, but as I said, no guarantees.  Ain't the internet useful?!



Have fun,

Scott Lewis

RV-6A VH-AFG

RV-10 40172

eagerlee wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   someone bid 100,000 on the RV-10 (item # 180081108309) on e-bay.  Check 

 out the winner's feedback and see if you can imagine a nightmare deal in 

 the making. It just keeps getting curiouser and curiouser.

 

 *

 

 

 *

lessdragprod(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2007 12:01 pm Post subject: unbelievable!!!

I certainly like to see how easy it is for some people WITHOUT ANY APPARRENT KNOWLWDGE OF A PROJECT to be critical of another persons dream.

    

   It's my understanding that the builder who had this RV-10 dream machine died of a sudden heart attack.

    

   I like your style of picking on a dead guy.  NOT.

    

   Jim Ayers

  

 --

david555(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2007 12:26 pm Post subject: unbelievable!!!

I have not made any comments about this  plane. But its time. The guy that is selling this plane did not die, his helper  did. This plane should not be built with 600 hp, I don't care if it is his dream  or not. We all make decisions about what is prudent to put in our airplanes and  thank God that our laws allow us to do that.

  

                                                                                        Those laws are based upon reasonable people attempting to make reasonable  decisions based upon sound engineering. Sometime calculations are wrong,  mistakes are made and bad things happen and people get hurt or die. This  airplane with 600 hp is not a miscalculation, it is idiotic. Someone will get  hurt or possibly someone will die. And if enough of this idiotic product gets  built, then it jeopardizes all of us who have the freedom to build experimental  aircraft. 

  

     We all have a vested interest in  experimental aircraft safety. David O Boone. 40138

 [quote]   ---

AV8ORJWC

Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 1149
Location: Aurora, Oregon "Home of VANS"

Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2007 1:10 pm Post subject: unbelievable!!!

Hey Jim, grab a quick reality grip.  I am unaware of anyone making disparaging comments regarding Chris Opperman’s untimely death or what should be the rightful needs of his wife to rectify their joint financial affairs.  

   

The real issue here was the posting of a 92” custom propeller being spun by a water-cooled, 600 horsepower, turbocharged, automotive engine with custom PSRU (unidentified).   And by the way, I do have direct experience with the individuals who tried to solve the PSRU issues after the EngineAir folded.  It only takes a short walk down memory lane of the loss of lives and loss of millions invested by duped builders who were directly connected with the EngineAir fiasco.  It is with the millions of dollars of needless additional premiums that Lancair builders/pilots today could identify with the poorly phrased posting of an assemblage of fabricated parts as a prudent purchase.  NOT.  As I said before, it is great they didn’t set any rivets.  If any reader is unable to grasp VANS objection to Hot Rodding, or Ken Krueger’s RVAvator article on exceeding VNE and having an aircraft come apart “In Flight” due to flutter, so be it.  You must have liked the 3,000 liter oxygen tank too and the ability to fly at FL250.  

   

The RV-10 is a great kit.  I believe (without aeronautical engineering support) that some modification to the Lycoming six-cylinder engine and propeller combination can be done safely and with prudent forethought. I was a fan of the MT – three blades. I even watch in awe at those considering the Subie solution.  Only a fool would attempt to disregard the safety designed into the RV-10 kit and try something as bold as a 600 hp powerplant. For the record, Chris was an A & P.  Don’t try this with your future Repairman Certificate.  Let’s focus the lack of good judgment on the Doctor from Idaho Falls who tried to embellish the marketing as being a dream machine.  Fortunately for the wife, $100,000 is fair compensation for clecoed parts that others can buy from VANS tomorrow morning for much less.  I would even speculate that Jesse could get all of the parts deburred and dimpled for the difference in price.  

   

The above statements may not be self evident to many readers so its (IMHO).  Draw your own conclusion or point out the error of this post.  

   

Let this issue R.I.P.  

     

John Cox 

 #40600   

   

Do not Archive  

        

  

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of lessdragprod(at)aol.com

 Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2007 12:00 PM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: RV10-List: unbelievable!!!  

  

     

I certainly like to see how easy it is for some people WITHOUT ANY APPARRENT KNOWLWDGE OF A PROJECT to be critical of another persons dream.  

    

   

    

It's my understanding that the builder who had this RV-10 dream machine died of a sudden heart attack.  

    

   

    

I like your style of picking on a dead guy.  NOT.  

    

   

    

Jim Ayers  

  

 

 --

jesse(at)saintaviation.co
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2007 3:53 pm Post subject: unbelievable!!!

In all fairness to the seller, he is offering to sell the kit without the engine for $80,000 as the listing states.  What I am missing, then, is where all of the added value is.  The amount of time put into a project adds very little value beyond the amount of work that has actually been done.  If you guess that the kit and add-ons from Van’s he has already are worth $40,000, then what gives it the other $40,000 in value?  Are there avionics?  Does he even have the stock engine mount, cowling, etc?  These are unknowns, but just because somebody claims to have spent $187,000 or whatever it was, doesn’t mean much.  Again, I add to JC’s comments about the V8-powered Lancair with the PSRU issues (among many other things).  I had N450HP (or something like that) sitting in my hangar for about a year.  They had, as I recall, $600,000 invested in a plane that can’t fly without the ever-missing engine computer.  The best thing that owner can do it take that engine off and pay the price to have an IO-550 installed so he can fly/sell the plane.  Is it worth anything near the $600,000 invested?  I submit that it is not, especially as a non-flying, airplane-look-alike hangar space-taker-upper (Oh, I am enjoying this word-inventing).  Anyway, it may be a deal at $80,000 without the engine and prop, depending on what is included.  Can it be finished in a month as was claimed?  NOT IN YOUR WILDEST DREAMS!  Will it ever fly with that engine?  I DOUBT IT!  Can the buyer buy it?  ABSOLUTELY, as it’s his money!  I just hope the buyer gets it without the engine and tries to complete a reasonable project with an IO-540 (or Subie or Innodyn – not that those are anywhere near in the same ballpark – OK, just ‘or Subie’).  

   

Do not archive.  

     

Jesse Saint  

Saint Aviation, Inc.  

jesse(at)saintaviation.com (jesse(at)saintaviation.com)  

www.saintaviation.com  

Cell: 352-427-0285  

Fax: 815-377-3694  

        

  

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of John W. Cox

 Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2007 4:11 PM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: RV10-List: unbelievable!!!  

  

   

Hey Jim, grab a quick reality grip.  I am unaware of anyone making disparaging comments regarding Chris Opperman’s untimely death or what should be the rightful needs of his wife to rectify their joint financial affairs.  

   

The real issue here was the posting of a 92” custom propeller being spun by a water-cooled, 600 horsepower, turbocharged, automotive engine with custom PSRU (unidentified).   And by the way, I do have direct experience with the individuals who tried to solve the PSRU issues after the EngineAir folded.  It only takes a short walk down memory lane of the loss of lives and loss of millions invested by duped builders who were directly connected with the EngineAir fiasco.  It is with the millions of dollars of needless additional premiums that Lancair builders/pilots today could identify with the poorly phrased posting of an assemblage of fabricated parts as a prudent purchase.  NOT.  As I said before, it is great they didn’t set any rivets.  If any reader is unable to grasp VANS objection to Hot Rodding, or Ken Krueger’s RVAvator article on exceeding VNE and having an aircraft come apart “In Flight” due to flutter, so be it.  You must have liked the 3,000 liter oxygen tank too and the ability to fly at FL250.  

   

The RV-10 is a great kit.  I believe (without aeronautical engineering support) that some modification to the Lycoming six-cylinder engine and propeller combination can be done safely and with prudent forethought. I was a fan of the MT – three blades. I even watch in awe at those considering the Subie solution.  Only a fool would attempt to disregard the safety designed into the RV-10 kit and try something as bold as a 600 hp powerplant. For the record, Chris was an A & P.  Don’t try this with your future Repairman Certificate.  Let’s focus the lack of good judgment on the Doctor from Idaho Falls who tried to embellish the marketing as being a dream machine.  Fortunately for the wife, $100,000 is fair compensation for clecoed parts that others can buy from VANS tomorrow morning for much less.  I would even speculate that Jesse could get all of the parts deburred and dimpled for the difference in price.  

   

The above statements may not be self evident to many readers so its (IMHO).  Draw your own conclusion or point out the error of this post.  

   

Let this issue R.I.P.  

     

John Cox 

 #40600   

   

Do not Archive  

          

  

  

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of lessdragprod(at)aol.com

 Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2007 12:00 PM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: RV10-List: unbelievable!!!  

  

     

I certainly like to see how easy it is for some people WITHOUT ANY APPARRENT KNOWLWDGE OF A PROJECT to be critical of another persons dream.  

    

   

    

It's my understanding that the builder who had this RV-10 dream machine died of a sudden heart attack.  

    

   

    

I like your style of picking on a dead guy.  NOT.  

    

   

    

Jim Ayers  

  

 

 --

stein(at)steinair.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2007 3:56 pm Post subject: unbelievable!!!

Wow....I  can't believe all the banter about these planes from literally everyone who has  little to NO knowledge themselves.  It seems even Jims "understanding" is  just flat wrong.  The facts are:

  

 Predator  Aviation was building a custom plane called the "Kymera 750" (aka an RV-10 with  a 700+somethingth hp engine) and also the Kymera 440.

  

 They Kymera  "750" was priced/sold around $300K and the "440" was around  $200K.

  

 They had to  call them a new plane, because Predator Aviation themselves got in trouble  selling/advertising turnkey RV-10's (The FAA got in the middle of it some time  ago).

  

 Predator  Aviation/Chris Opperman sold TWO "Kymera 750's or 440's" to  individuals  who BOTH paid a LOT of money (we're talking hundreds of thousands of $$'s here).  

  

 Incidentally,  both of the buyers / customers are doctors - I know one of them very well and  just met the other after this whole debacle.  I was building the panel for  one of the customers and the other was being built by Predator  (supposedly).

  

 Chris ordered  avionis from me for "both" planes.

  

 Predator  Aviation constantly send updates to both "customers" complete with pictures,  progress reports, etc.. on BOTH planes.

  

 Both  customers truly believed that each of them was having a plane built by Opperman  and relied on his "progress reports" of newly clecoed together pieces as proof  of progress.

  

 Both  customers previous to his "death" last year did not know each  other.

  

 Both  customers didn't spend time on site.

  

 Both  customers found out after Oppermans death that in fact there was only ONE  airplane, and an incomplete one at that.

  

 Both  customers fought over who's plane it was (since both of them had paid a LOT OF  $$'s for their plane).

  

 The "Kymera  750 or 440" was promised to be a super fast, super structurally modified (Chris  told me many times personally about all his "engineering" modifications to the  airplane that made it so different from an RV-10).

  

 Quote from  their sales brochure says "Airframe Reinforced for high payload".

  

 This whole  thing was/is a bloody mess with both guys losing a ton of  money. Look at the Predator Aviation website if you want the  details. They claimed: 274mph cruise, 2400 nm range, 1850lb usefull load,  120gal fuel capacity and 750+ hp turbocharged engine.  

  

 The only sad  thing here is that the current owner of the kit was so ignorant (who in the  world honestly thinks that plane is even remotely done).  The fact is there  is about 2% of work done on that plane.....I don't think the guy is stupid, just  one of the most ignorant people I've ever met.  Who thinks they have 9" GRT  displays, or a 92" prop, or an 80% completed airplane that's barely unpacked  from the crate?!?!?!?  I feel bad for anyone that now falls for those lies  or plain ignorance (I don't know which), just like the original two owners fell  for Oppermans lies.

  

 As far as  picking on a Dead Guy, well.....it turns out he wasn't the most ethical,  moral, or honest person in the world when it came to customers and  business.  We all may wonder how in the world people get involved in things  like that, and at the time of his supposed death when I found out all the nasty  details from both customers I thought  - - "Who would send that much money  without getting anything back, etc.. or checking in  constantly".

  

 Then, I find  myself losing hundreds of thousands of $$'s myself in the middle of this  D2A/Chelton debacle and I see how easy it is to end up on the receiving end of  bad deals.

  

 Just my 2  cents as usual!  Sorry if anyone gets offended, but it seems like I've  seen lots banter here with little to no first hand knowledge of the  situation.

  

 Cheers,

 Stein.

  

 P.S., I've  attached a copy of their sales brochure (if it makes it) for your review.   Chris actually thought I'd be crazy enough to try and "resell" these things for  him...!

  	  Quote: 	
		     -----Original    Message-----

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com    [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of    lessdragprod(at)aol.com

Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2007 2:00    PM

To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: RV10-List:    unbelievable!!!

   I    certainly like to see how easy it is for some people WITHOUT ANY APPARRENT    KNOWLWDGE OF A PROJECT to be critical of another persons dream.

    

   It's my understanding that the builder who had this RV-10 dream    machine died of a sudden heart attack.

    

   I like your style of picking on a dead guy.  NOT.

    

   Jim Ayers

KYMERA_750_brochure.pdf

Description:

Download

Filename:

KYMERA_750_brochure.pdf

Filesize:

119.07 KB

Downloaded:

646 Time(s)

n8vim(at)arrl.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2007 4:24 pm Post subject: unbelievable!!!

I think that the tipoff that this *might* be BS is the 2500 mile range 

with 120 gallons, economy cruise of around 225mph. With these numbers, 

that means over 11 hour endurance, which equates to *10GPH fuel burn on 

a 700+HP engine. *



As Scotty says: "You cannot change the laws of physics!"  Doctors you 

say? Must be Psychology.... You just can't make this stuff up...



-Jim



SteinAir, Inc. wrote:



[quote] Wow....I can't believe all the banter about these planes from 

 literally everyone who has little to NO knowledge themselves.  It 

 seems even Jims "understanding" is just flat wrong.  The facts are:

  

 Predator Aviation was building a custom plane called the "Kymera 750" 

 (aka an RV-10 with a 700+somethingth hp engine) and also the Kymera 440.

  

 They Kymera "750" was priced/sold around $300K and the "440" was 

 around $200K.

  

 They had to call them a new plane, because Predator Aviation 

 themselves got in trouble selling/advertising turnkey RV-10's (The FAA 

 got in the middle of it some time ago).

  

 Predator Aviation/Chris Opperman sold TWO "Kymera 750's or 440's" to 

  individuals who BOTH paid a LOT of money (we're talking hundreds of 

 thousands of $$'s here).

  

 Incidentally, both of the buyers / customers are doctors - I know one 

 of them very well and just met the other after this whole debacle.  I 

 was building the panel for one of the customers and the other was 

 being built by Predator (supposedly).

  

 Chris ordered avionis from me for "both" planes.

  

 Predator Aviation constantly send updates to both "customers" complete 

 with pictures, progress reports, etc.. on BOTH planes.

  

 Both customers truly believed that each of them was having a plane 

 built by Opperman and relied on his "progress reports" of newly 

 clecoed together pieces as proof of progress.

  

 Both customers previous to his "death" last year did not know each other.

  

 Both customers didn't spend time on site.

  

 Both customers found out after Oppermans death that in fact there was 

 only ONE airplane, and an incomplete one at that.

  

 Both customers fought over who's plane it was (since both of them had 

 paid a LOT OF $$'s for their plane).

  

 The "Kymera 750 or 440" was promised to be a super fast, super 

 structurally modified (Chris told me many times personally about all 

 his "engineering" modifications to the airplane that made it so 

 different from an RV-10).

  

 Quote from their sales brochure says "Airframe Reinforced for high 

 payload".

  

 This whole thing was/is a bloody mess with both guys losing a ton of 

 money. Look at the Predator Aviation website if you want the 

 details. They claimed: 274mph cruise, 2400 nm range, 1850lb usefull 

 load, 120gal fuel capacity and 750+ hp turbocharged engine.  

  

 The only sad thing here is that the current owner of the kit was so 

 ignorant (who in the world honestly thinks that plane is even remotely 

 done).  The fact is there is about 2% of work done on that plane.....I 

 don't think the guy is stupid, just one of the most ignorant people 

 I've ever met.  Who thinks they have 9" GRT displays, or a 92" prop, 

 or an 80% completed airplane that's barely unpacked from the 

 crate?!?!?!?  I feel bad for anyone that now falls for those lies or 

 plain ignorance (I don't know which), just like the original two 

 owners fell for Oppermans lies.

  

 As far as picking on a Dead Guy, well.....it turns out he wasn't the 

 most ethical, moral, or honest person in the world when it came 

 to customers and business.  We all may wonder how in the world people 

 get involved in things like that, and at the time of his supposed 

 death when I found out all the nasty details from both customers I 

 thought  - - "Who would send that much money without getting anything 

 back, etc.. or checking in constantly".

  

 Then, I find myself losing hundreds of thousands of $$'s myself in the 

 middle of this D2A/Chelton debacle and I see how easy it is to end up 

 on the receiving end of bad deals.

  

 Just my 2 cents as usual!  Sorry if anyone gets offended, but it seems 

 like I've seen lots banter here with little to no first hand knowledge 

 of the situation.

  

 Cheers,

 Stein.

  

 P.S., I've attached a copy of their sales brochure (if it makes it) 

 for your review.  Chris actually thought I'd be crazy enough to try 

 and "resell" these things for him...!



     --

LessDragProd(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2007 5:26 pm Post subject: unbelievable!!!

Hi Stein,

  

 Opinions are like belly buttons.  Everyone has one.

  

 Jim Ayers

 Build more - Type less.

  

 In a message dated 02/11/2007 3:59:26 PM Pacific Standard Time,  stein(at)steinair.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		     Wow....I    can't believe all the banter about these planes from literally everyone who    has little to NO knowledge themselves.  It seems even Jims    "understanding" is just flat wrong.

    

   (Stuff    Cut)

    

   Just my 2    cents as usual!  Sorry if anyone gets offended, but it seems like I've    seen lots banter here with little to no first hand knowledge of the    situation.

    

   Cheers,

   Stein.

	


 

  

  [quote][b]

capsteve

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 111
Location: NIAGARA FALLS NY

Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2007 6:28 pm Post subject: unbelievable!!!

You’re absolutely right, bellybuttons are prevalent, but  

Opinions based on fact seem to be in short supply……(just my ill informed opinion)  

            I find myself strangely curious as to the different takes on the many subjects touched on in this group.  

 I really don’t mind the banter; I have a quick delete finger. But, I really appreciate when someone steps up and clears the air. In this case its Stein,  

But I tip my hat to all contributors who educate, inform, and entertain on a daily basis.   

Steve d   

40205  

   

   

   

           

  

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of LessDragProd(at)aol.com

 Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2007 8:26 PM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: RV10-List: unbelievable!!!  

  

       

Hi Stein,  

    

   

    

Opinions are like belly buttons.  Everyone has one.  

    

   

    

Jim Ayers  

    

Build more - Type less.  

    

   

    

In a message dated 02/11/2007 3:59:26 PM Pacific Standard Time, stein(at)steinair.com writes:  

   	  Quote: 	
		      

Wow....I can't believe all the banter about these planes from literally everyone who has little to NO knowledge themselves.  It seems even Jims "understanding" is just flat wrong.  

    

   

    

(Stuff Cut)  

    

   

    

Just my 2 cents as usual!  Sorry if anyone gets offended, but it seems like I've seen lots banter here with little to no first hand knowledge of the situation.  

    

   

    

Cheers,  

    

Stein.  

  	
  

    

   

   	  Quote: 	
		    http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List 	
0 	  Quote: 	
		   	
1 	  Quote: 	
		   	
2 	  Quote: 	
		   	
3 	  Quote: 	
		   	
4

  

       [quote][b]

rv10builder(at)verizon.ne
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 9:40 am Post subject: unbelievable!!!

and now we know

 "the rest of the story"

  

  

 Thanks Stein.

  

 [quote]   ---

jjessen

Joined: 22 Apr 2006
Posts: 285
Location: OR

Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 6:34 pm Post subject: unbelievable!!!

Predator, indeed.  

   From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of SteinAir,  Inc.

Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2007 3:53 PM

To:  rv10-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: RE: RV10-List:  unbelievable!!!

 Wow....I  can't believe all the banter about these planes from literally everyone who has  little to NO knowledge themselves.  It seems even Jims "understanding" is  just flat wrong.  The facts are:

 Predator  Aviation was building a custom plane called the "Kymera 750" (aka an RV-10 with  a 700+somethingth hp engine) and also the Kymera 440.

 They Kymera  "750" was priced/sold around $300K and the "440" was around  $200K.

 They had to  call them a new plane, because Predator Aviation themselves got in trouble  selling/advertising turnkey RV-10's (The FAA got in the middle of it some time  ago).

 Predator  Aviation/Chris Opperman sold TWO "Kymera 750's or 440's" to  individuals  who BOTH paid a LOT of money (we're talking hundreds of thousands of $$'s here).  

 Incidentally,  both of the buyers / customers are doctors - I know one of them very well and  just met the other after this whole debacle.  I was building the panel for  one of the customers and the other was being built by Predator  (supposedly).

 Chris ordered  avionis from me for "both" planes.

 Predator  Aviation constantly send updates to both "customers" complete with pictures,  progress reports, etc.. on BOTH planes.

 Both  customers truly believed that each of them was having a plane built by Opperman  and relied on his "progress reports" of newly clecoed together pieces as proof  of progress.

 Both  customers previous to his "death" last year did not know each  other.

 Both  customers didn't spend time on site.

 Both  customers found out after Oppermans death that in fact there was only ONE  airplane, and an incomplete one at that.

 Both  customers fought over who's plane it was (since both of them had paid a LOT OF  $$'s for their plane).

 The "Kymera  750 or 440" was promised to be a super fast, super structurally modified (Chris  told me many times personally about all his "engineering" modifications to the  airplane that made it so different from an RV-10).

 Quote from  their sales brochure says "Airframe Reinforced for high payload".

 This whole  thing was/is a bloody mess with both guys losing a ton of  money. Look at the Predator Aviation website if you want the  details. They claimed: 274mph cruise, 2400 nm range, 1850lb usefull load,  120gal fuel capacity and 750+ hp turbocharged engine.  

 The only sad  thing here is that the current owner of the kit was so ignorant (who in the  world honestly thinks that plane is even remotely done).  The fact is there  is about 2% of work done on that plane.....I don't think the guy is stupid, just  one of the most ignorant people I've ever met.  Who thinks they have 9" GRT  displays, or a 92" prop, or an 80% completed airplane that's barely unpacked  from the crate?!?!?!?  I feel bad for anyone that now falls for those lies  or plain ignorance (I don't know which), just like the original two owners fell  for Oppermans lies.

 As far as  picking on a Dead Guy, well.....it turns out he wasn't the most ethical,  moral, or honest person in the world when it came to customers and  business.  We all may wonder how in the world people get involved in things  like that, and at the time of his supposed death when I found out all the nasty  details from both customers I thought  - - "Who would send that much money  without getting anything back, etc.. or checking in  constantly".

 Then, I find  myself losing hundreds of thousands of $$'s myself in the middle of this  D2A/Chelton debacle and I see how easy it is to end up on the receiving end of  bad deals.

 Just my 2  cents as usual!  Sorry if anyone gets offended, but it seems like I've  seen lots banter here with little to no first hand knowledge of the  situation.

 Cheers,

 Stein.

 P.S., I've  attached a copy of their sales brochure (if it makes it) for your review.   Chris actually thought I'd be crazy enough to try and "resell" these things for  him...!

 [quote]   -----Original    Message-----

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com    [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of    lessdragprod(at)aol.com

Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2007 2:00    PM

To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: RV10-List:    unbelievable!!!

   I    certainly like to see how easy it is for some people WITHOUT ANY APPARRENT    KNOWLWDGE OF A PROJECT to be critical of another persons dream.

   It's my understanding that the builder who had this RV-10 dream    machine died of a sudden heart attack.

   I like your style of picking on a dead guy.  NOT.

   Jim Ayers

[b]

AV8ORJWC

Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 1149
Location: Aurora, Oregon "Home of VANS"

Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 12:49 am Post subject: unbelievable!!!

Thank you for respectfully withdrawing your observation.  The RV-10 is being mass produced in South Africa, Russian, the P.I., Central America and yes in Oklahoma.  The loophole has a truck running through it and the FAA has convened a committee to close the door or give approval on those current actions.  Your answer will be forthcoming quite soon.  

   

Just a rhetorical question for the masses.  Just how many RV-10s beyond ONE should a builder be allowed to complete before the group yells “Foul”?  I guess the silence is a compelling answer.  

   

The “For hire” boys are alive and well buying RV-10 kits.  

   

Here is the final question.  Who finds it inappropriate for a manufacturer to ship a second, third, fourth or fifth kit to those repeat builders?  

   

Bill, you should be hearing soon from a few of those builders (predators) about their product offering.  

     

John Cox 

 #40600   

   

Do not Archive  

        

  

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of William Condon

 Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 12:00 AM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: RV10-List: unbelievable!!!  

  

   

Given that the below is all true, one cannot have any sympathy for the two doctors involved or the former owner of the company.  Not only did were the doctors displaying an unbelievable level of foolishness (by giving away huge sums of money to a possible crook), but they were directly threatening the experimental building community, as a whole.  

   

I say that because this apparently involved the ‘for-hire’ building of an experimental aircraft – since the doctors didn’t know anything about the scam, they obviously hadn’t invested any of their own labor in the building of the aircraft.  Of course, to get an airworthiness certificate for this aircraft, the people would have to defraud the FAA.  And, when people are out there defrauding the FAA, this will eventual lead to them (the FAA) eating away at the public’s right to build its own airplanes.     

   

Unless, of course, there is a loophole that I don’t know about (where one can pay to have kit airplanes professionally built) – if that is the case, I respectfully withdraw my comments (except for the foolishness / crook part, which still stands).  

   

Bill C.  

Dream – 100%, everything else – 0%  

US military stationed overseas until 2009  

   

      [quote][b]

rene(at)felker.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 5:52 am Post subject: unbelievable!!!

John Wrote  

   

“Just a rhetorical question for the masses.  Just how many RV-10s beyond ONE should a builder be allowed to complete before the group yells “Foul”?  I guess the silence is a compelling answer.”  

   

   

Compelling answer?  I don’t think that the silence can be construed as any thing but this being a very complex issue with many points of view.  I am one example, I have really enjoyed the building process, other than the panel…….  ………., and I am sure I will build a second plane and will become a repeat offender.  Maybe it will be a RV-12, maybe a 10 or even something else, but I do not want my options limited.  If I build another RV-10 it would be to make a better plane than I did the first time, and I would need to sell my first RV-10 to finance the second one.  I don’t want the FAA to limit my options.  Thus I am a little timid to jump out there and point the finger at the “factory” RV builders in the fear that the FAA will limit my options when the go after the “true” offenders??????  

   

     

Rene' Felker  

40322  

N423CF  

801-721-6080  

    

   

Do not Archive  

  

       [quote][b]

rvbuilder(at)sausen.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 6:05 am Post subject: unbelievable!!!

You forgot Florida.  As far as how many should someone be allowed to build, there shouldn’t be a limit as long as they are sticking to the intent of the rule which clearly is against any type of productionizing of a experimental aircraft.  You want to produce the RV-10 as a aircraft for profit, no problem.  Take it through the same processes that every other production aircraft company does.  While you are at it develop your own manufacturing facilities because there isn’t a chance Van will sell kit’s to you at that point, even under the guise of “raw materials”.  

   

Unfortunately there is no litmus test for determining what a builders intent is.  This is what the FAA has to struggle with.  Sometimes they get it right, sometimes they get it wrong.  There are some limits that make it pretty clear like building and selling an aircraft once a year, especially the same model.  The 51% rule requires some philosophical debate and a little too much Carnac the Magnificent to determine who is following the rule and who isn’t.  Some guys are just flat out breaking the rule no matter how they rationalize it.  Some are legitimate in their pursuits.  I think to things that would go a long way are to reduce this problem are;  make the builder sit on the aircraft for at least 2 years and look at the builders employment history.  If they have been unemployed for several years but have built 5 aircraft it’s a good bet they are in it for the money.  

   

I enjoy the building aspects as much as I enjoy flying.  There is a good chance I will build one or more aircraft in the future because I enjoy that aspect.  I sure don’t need more than 2 or 3 aircraft  so I will probably end up selling at least one or two.  The difference is I have absolutely no problem in keeping the aircraft for a few years after I complete it.  

   

Soap box off.  

   

Michael  

Do not archive  

       

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of John W. Cox

 Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 2:48 AM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: unbelievable!!!  

  

  

   

Thank you for respectfully withdrawing your observation.  The RV-10 is being mass produced in South Africa, Russian, the P.I., Central America and yes in Oklahoma.  The loophole has a truck running through it and the FAA has convened a committee to close the door or give approval on those current actions.  Your answer will be forthcoming quite soon.  

   

Just a rhetorical question for the masses.  Just how many RV-10s beyond ONE should a builder be allowed to complete before the group yells “Foul”?  I guess the silence is a compelling answer.  

   

The “For hire” boys are alive and well buying RV-10 kits.  

   

Here is the final question.  Who finds it inappropriate for a manufacturer to ship a second, third, fourth or fifth kit to those repeat builders?  

   

Bill, you should be hearing soon from a few of those builders (predators) about their product offering.  

     

John Cox 

 #40600   

   

Do not Archive  

          

  

  

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of William Condon

 Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 12:00 AM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: unbelievable!!!  

  

   

Given that the below is all true, one cannot have any sympathy for the two doctors involved or the former owner of the company.  Not only did were the doctors displaying an unbelievable level of foolishness (by giving away huge sums of money to a possible crook), but they were directly threatening the experimental building community, as a whole.  

   

I say that because this apparently involved the ‘for-hire’ building of an experimental aircraft – since the doctors didn’t know anything about the scam, they obviously hadn’t invested any of their own labor in the building of the aircraft.  Of course, to get an airworthiness certificate for this aircraft, the people would have to defraud the FAA.  And, when people are out there defrauding the FAA, this will eventual lead to them (the FAA) eating away at the public’s right to build its own airplanes.     

   

Unless, of course, there is a loophole that I don’t know about (where one can pay to have kit airplanes professionally built) – if that is the case, I respectfully withdraw my comments (except for the foolishness / crook part, which still stands).  

   

Bill C.  

Dream – 100%, everything else – 0%  

US military stationed overseas until 2009  

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