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lwhitlow

Joined: 15 Jan 2006
Posts: 76
Location: Valparaiso Indiana

Posted: Fri Dec 26, 2008 4:10 pm Post subject: Fuel Lines and Fuel Pump

Hi All



Last year when I was working on the wings. I made the decision to put a fuel pump in the root of each wing. As I see it a pump is much better at pushing than it is at suction.



Anyway, I now have the fuselage on the gear!!! and I have brought the wings back to the bench for finish work and closure of the top skin and top leading edge.



I'm concerned about the longevity of the fuel lines, on two fronts. First this line came with the kit I picked up in Nov 2005. Is age a factor here??  These lines wont see fuel for at least another 4 months.



Second Question, Since ethanol is hard to avoid in MOGAS these days I'd like to make sure that my fuel system is compatible. What about these lines??  Is Ethanol / MOGAS a problem for this line??  As you can see from the attached picture I can inspect the lines through the access port but the only way to replace them is to open up the leading edge. So obviously if I need to make a change, now it the time.



Comments Concerns Criticisms   All welcome!!



Larry Whitlow

601XL  85% done 61% to go

N69102 (reserved) or N747LW (reserved) (I can't decide)

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hills(at)sunflower.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Dec 26, 2008 4:33 pm Post subject: Fuel Lines and Fuel Pump

Larry;



Fuel lines, in general, have a limited life span and should be replaced on a

regular basis as they get hard.  When building your plane, keep this in mind

and make the fuel lines inspectable, and serviceable (even if you have to

add inspection plates to the structure.  



Roger



--

mfrench601(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Dec 26, 2008 4:43 pm Post subject: Fuel Lines and Fuel Pump

After viewing your fuel pump and lines I would like to recommend two changes.  Teflon tape should not be used as small strips of it can come off and travel through the fuel sustem.  The other concern is the worm clamps which can  work loose.  I recommend all AN hardware where possible.

  

 M. French  

 CH601HD



--- On Fri, 12/26/08, lwhitlow <ldwhitlow(at)comcast.net> wrote:



  	  Quote: 	
		  From: lwhitlow <ldwhitlow(at)comcast.net>

Subject: Fuel Lines and Fuel Pump

To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Friday, December 26, 2008, 4:10 PM



 	  Quote: 	
		  --> Zenith-List message posted by: "lwhitlow"

<ldwhitlow(at)comcast.net>



Hi All



Last year when I was working on the wings. I made the decision to put a fuel

pump in the root of each wing. As I see it a pump is much better at pushing than

it is at suction.



Anyway, I now have the fuselage on the gear!!! and I have brought the wings

back to the bench for finish work and closure of the top skin and top leading

edge.



I'm concerned about the longevity of the fuel lines, on two fronts. First

this line came with the kit I picked up in Nov 2005. Is age a factor here?? 

These lines wont see fuel for at least another 4 months.



Second Question, Since ethanol is hard to avoid in MOGAS these days I'd

like to make sure that my fuel system is compatible. What about these lines?? 

Is Ethanol / MOGAS a problem for this line??  As you can see from the attached

picture I can inspect the lines through the access port but the only way to

replace them is to open up the leading edge. So obviously if I need to make a

change, now it the time.



Comments Concerns Criticisms   All welcome!!



Larry Whitlow

601XL  85% done 61% to go

N69102 (reserved) or N747LW (reserved) (I can't decide)





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 21270#221270





Attachments: 



http://forums.matronics.com//files/fuelpump_299.jpg

http://forums.matronics.com//files/wheels_413.jpg



	
	


         [quote][b]

lwhitlow

Joined: 15 Jan 2006
Posts: 76
Location: Valparaiso Indiana

Posted: Fri Dec 26, 2008 5:50 pm Post subject: Re: Fuel Lines and Fuel Pump

 	  mfrench601(at)yahoo.com wrote: 	
		  After viewing your fuel pump and lines I would like to recommend two changes.  Teflon tape should not be used as small strips of it can come off and travel through the fuel sustem.  The other concern is the worm clamps which can  work loose.  I recommend all AN hardware where possible.

  

 M. French  

 CH601HD



	




Thank for the comment about my setup.



There's no Teflon tape in there. The white you see is Permetex gasoline rated thread sealer. Its only on the last two threads and none is near the openings.



What other clamps are used on rubber fuel lines???  I have AN hardware on hand to convert the setup to Aluminum lines but its an undertaking.



I've waffled about the rubber lines in the wings for a while now, but the definitive answer has not showed up. I would be inclined to leave the rubber lines in but the ethanol question is valid, knowing that 100LL might go away sooner than we think.



Larry Whitlow

601XL 82% done 71% to go

N69102 (reserved) or N747LW (reserved) (I always wanted my own 747)

Ron Lendon

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 685
Location: Clinton Twp., MI

Posted: Fri Dec 26, 2008 6:36 pm Post subject: Re: Fuel Lines and Fuel Pump

I used earls fittings and lines from the fuel tanks.  The pumps are mounted on the firewall on the engine side.



Here is a picture.



The plus is no fuel under pressure in the passenger compartment.

FuelTanks 048.jpg

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_________________
Ron Lendon
WW Corvair with Roy's Garage 5th bearing
CH 601 XLB
N601LT - Flying
http://www.mykitlog.com/rlendon
Corvair Engine Prints:
https://sites.google.com/site/corvairenginedata/

hills(at)sunflower.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Dec 26, 2008 6:41 pm Post subject: Fuel Lines and Fuel Pump

If you use silicone fuel line, it will be much less affected by alcohol, but

I don't think they are truly alcohol proof.  Also, check with the

manufacture of your carb, alcohol could damage internals on some carbs, such

as the Ellison injector carb.  



Note: car gas is available without alcohol, and that's what you should be

using (for other reasons as well), but just because the pump does not say

"ethanol added", does not mean it's not in there, so check the gas will a

alcohol tester just to be sure,,,



Roger





--

Afterfxllc(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Dec 26, 2008 7:15 pm Post subject: Fuel Lines and Fuel Pump

Aluminum all the way.... Peace of mind is more than worth the extra effort  it will take to convert them. You are also going to be pumping pressurized fuel  into the aircraft with your setup and a leak could really be a problem. If you  mount the pumps on the firewall a leak will only cause the line to suck air and  you will have little fuel leak into the aircraft. The pumps work very well on  the firewall.

  

 Jeff

  

  In a message dated 12/26/2008 9:42:27 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  hills(at)sunflower.com writes:

 [quote]-->    Zenith-List message posted by: "Roger & Lina Hill"    <hills(at)sunflower.com>

If you use silicone fuel line, it will    be much less affected by alcohol, but

I don't think they are truly alcohol    proof.  Also, check with the

manufacture of your carb, alcohol could    damage internals on some carbs, such

as the Ellison injector carb.     



Note: car gas is available without alcohol, and that's what you should    be

using (for other reasons as well), but just because the pump does not    say

"ethanol added", does not mean it's not in there, so check the gas will    a

alcohol tester just to be    sure,,,



Roger





--

lwhitlow

Joined: 15 Jan 2006
Posts: 76
Location: Valparaiso Indiana

Posted: Fri Dec 26, 2008 8:27 pm Post subject: Re: Fuel Lines and Fuel Pump

 	  Ron Lendon wrote: 	
		  I used earls fittings and lines from the fuel tanks.  The pumps are mounted on the firewall on the engine side.



Here is a picture.



The plus is no fuel under pressure in the passenger compartment. 	




Ron,

 

If I'm looking at that picture correctly, you came out of the tank to an AN fitting and then to the braided line through the nose ribs.



What's your connection at the wing root into the fuselage?



Larry

lwhitlow

Joined: 15 Jan 2006
Posts: 76
Location: Valparaiso Indiana

Posted: Fri Dec 26, 2008 8:33 pm Post subject: Re: Fuel Lines and Fuel Pump

 	  Afterfxllc(at)aol.com wrote: 	
		  Aluminum all the way.... Peace of mind is more than worth the extra effort  it will take to convert them. You are also going to be pumping pressurized fuel  into the aircraft with your setup and a leak could really be a problem. If you  mount the pumps on the firewall a leak will only cause the line to suck air and  you will have little fuel leak into the aircraft. The pumps work very well on  the firewall.

  

 Jeff

  

	




Jeff



I'm using all aluminum and AN fittings inside the cabin.



My reason for the pumps in the wingroot centers around the Fuel selector valve in the cabin. The valve (per the plans) winds up about 12 inches above the tank outlet (give or take) and is most certainly the high spot in the fuel system



I was (and still am) concerned that low fuel levels in the tanks would lead to a low enough head pressure to not get usable fuel past the valve.



In which case the pumps on the firewall have nothing to pump.



Thoughts??



Larry

Terry Phillips

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 346
Location: Corvallis, MT

Posted: Fri Dec 26, 2008 9:23 pm Post subject: Fuel Lines and Fuel Pump

Larry



Thank you for the post. I am planning to put my pumps in the wing also, but 

I have built a more complicated installation based on a concept at 

ch601.org. Simple is beautiful--I like your idea much better. Since I have 

plenty of time, I think that I will probably install my pumps at you have 

done. One thing I'm undecided about--fuel filters. The instructions for the 

pumps recommend a filter upstream from the pump. My EAA Tech Counselor 

doesn't believe in filters that can plug up on the pump suction. I don't 

know what I will do.



Regarding the fuel lines, I personally doubt 4 years unused is an issue for 

those lines, assuming the hoses have not been exposed to UV light (i.e., 

sunlight). I'm planning to use aluminum lines from the wings through the 

firewall. I'm more comfortable with metal lines. We'll see if I have any 

luck bending the aluminum tubing into 3-D shapes  I'm thinking I need to 

order some more tubing to allow for mistakes.



Let us know how the wing mounted pumps work out for you.



Terry

At 04:10 PM 12/26/2008 -0800, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  Hi All



Last year when I was working on the wings. I made the decision to put a 

fuel pump in the root of each wing. As I see it a pump is much better at 

pushing than it is at suction.



Anyway, I now have the fuselage on the gear!!! and I have brought the 

wings back to the bench for finish work and closure of the top skin and 

top leading edge.



I'm concerned about the longevity of the fuel lines, on two fronts. First 

this line came with the kit I picked up in Nov 2005. Is age a factor 

here??  These lines wont see fuel for at least another 4 months.



Second Question, Since ethanol is hard to avoid in MOGAS these days I'd 

like to make sure that my fuel system is compatible. What about these 

lines??  Is Ethanol / MOGAS a problem for this line??  As you can see from 

the attached picture I can inspect the lines through the access port but 

the only way to replace them is to open up the leading edge. So obviously 

if I need to make a change, now it the time.



Comments Concerns Criticisms   All welcome!!



Larry Whitlow

601XL  85% done 61% to go

N69102 (reserved) or N747LW (reserved) (I can't decide)


	




Terry Phillips  ZBAGer

ttp44~at~rkymtn.net

Corvallis MT

601XL/Jab 3300 s .. l .. o .. o .. w build kit - Tail, flaps, & ailerons 

are done; working on the wings

http://www.mykitlog.com/N47TP/

_________________
Terry Phillips
Corvallis, MT
ttp44<at>rkymtn.net
Zenith 601XL/Jab 3300 slow build kit - Tail feathers done; working on the wings.

Afterfxllc(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Dec 26, 2008 9:27 pm Post subject: Fuel Lines and Fuel Pump

Larry,

  

 The pumps on the firewall will suck the tanks dry (Don't ask me how I found  this out) we initially thought we had a leak in the line but after checking  everything out we had about 2 oz of fuel in the tank so the pumps perform well,  in fact if the pumps were behind the fuel it would have ran out sooner  because the lines would have been full of fuel but the pump would have had  nothing to push after the tank was empty. 

  

 Jeff

  	  Quote: 	
		  Jeff



I'm using all aluminum and AN fittings inside the    cabin.



My reason for the pumps in the wingroot centers around the Fuel    selector valve in the cabin. The valve (per the plans) winds up about 12    inches (give or take) and is most certainly the high spot in the fuel    system



I was (and still am) concerned that low fuel levels in the tanks    would lead to a low enough head pressure to not get usable fuel past the    valve.



In which case the pumps on the firewall have nothing to    pump.



Thoughts??



Larry

	


 

  



One site keeps you connected to all your email: AOL Mail, Gmail, and Yahoo Mail. Try it now.

  [quote][b]

hills(at)sunflower.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Dec 26, 2008 9:54 pm Post subject: Fuel Lines and Fuel Pump

Larry;  

   

Don’t forget to add that to your flight manual.  

Fuel Unusable = 2oz.  

   

Roger  

   

   

         

  

From: owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Afterfxllc(at)aol.com

 Sent: Friday, December 26, 2008 11:26 PM

 To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Re: Fuel Lines and Fuel Pump  

  

       

Larry,  

    

   

    

The pumps on the firewall will suck the tanks dry (Don't ask me how I found this out) we initially thought we had a leak in the line but after checking everything out we had about 2 oz of fuel in the tank so the pumps perform well, in fact if the pumps were behind the fuel it would have ran out sooner because the lines would have been full of fuel but the pump would have had nothing to push after the tank was empty.   

    

   

    

Jeff  

   	  Quote: 	
		    

Jeff

 

 I'm using all aluminum and AN fittings inside the cabin.

 

 My reason for the pumps in the wingroot centers around the Fuel selector valve in the cabin. The valve (per the plans) winds up about 12 inches (give or take) and is most certainly the high spot in the fuel system

 

 I was (and still am) concerned that low fuel levels in the tanks would lead to a low enough head pressure to not get usable fuel past the valve.

 

 In which case the pumps on the firewall have nothing to pump.

 

 Thoughts??

 

 Larry  	
  

    

   

  



 

         

  

One site keeps you connected to all your email: AOL Mail, Gmail, and Yahoo Mail. Try it now.  

   	  Quote: 	
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Afterfxllc(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Dec 26, 2008 10:59 pm Post subject: Fuel Lines and Fuel Pump

Roger

  

 I  would go 4 oz just for a margin of safety....

  

 Jeff

  

  

  

 Larry;

  	  Quote: 	
		     

    

Donâ€™t forget to add    that to your flight manual.   

Fuel Unusable =    2oz.   

    

Roger   

    

    

             

   

From:    owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com    [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Afterfxllc(at)aol.com

Sent: Friday, December 26, 2008 11:26    PM

To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Re: Fuel Lines    and Fuel Pump

   

          

Larry,

      

 

      

The pumps on the    firewall will suck the tanks dry (Don't ask me how I found this out) we    initially thought we had a leak in the line but after checking everything out    we had about 2 oz of fuel in the tank so the pumps perform well, in fact if    the pumps were behind the fuel it would have ran out sooner because the    lines would have been full of fuel but the pump would have had nothing to push    after the tank was empty. 

      

 

      

Jeff

    	  Quote: 	
		       

Jeff



I'm      using all aluminum and AN fittings inside the cabin.



My reason for      the pumps in the wingroot centers around the Fuel selector valve in the      cabin. The valve (per the plans) winds up about 12 inches (give or take) and      is most certainly the high spot in the fuel system



I was (and still      am) concerned that low fuel levels in the tanks would lead to a low enough      head pressure to not get usable fuel past the valve.



In which case      the pumps on the firewall have nothing to      pump.



Thoughts??



Larry 	


	


 

  



One site keeps you connected to all your email: AOL Mail, Gmail, and Yahoo Mail. Try it now.

  [quote][b]

daveaustin2(at)primus.ca
Guest

Posted: Sat Dec 27, 2008 5:31 am Post subject: Fuel Lines and Fuel Pump

I think I've heard that ethanol in the fuel will eat up aluminum so the alum 

pipes are not a good idea.  Any comments?

Dave Austin  601HDS - 912

jaybannist(at)cs.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Dec 27, 2008 6:37 am Post subject: Fuel Lines and Fuel Pump

Larry,

 

 I have the fuel pumps mounted on the engine side of the firewall.  I have a short run of the kit-furnished fuel hose from the fuel tank to a fitting inside the fuselage (at the hole provided for this in the dual stick bracket). The rest of the fuel lines are braided. I mis-matched some components in this first fitting and had a leak there, pressured only by the hydraulic head of the fuel in the half-full tanks.  Once that was corrected, I have had no leaks.  

 

 The fuel selector is in the center of the center console.  I have had no problem getting fuel to the carburetor. 

 

 I absolutely did not want the fuel lines in the cabin to be under pressure.  The only reason I could justify having fuel pumps at the tanks would be to fill a header tank that feeds the carburetor by gravity.

 

 Jay in Dallas

 Do not archive

 

   

 

   

 

 --

lwhitlow

Joined: 15 Jan 2006
Posts: 76
Location: Valparaiso Indiana

Posted: Sat Dec 27, 2008 6:51 am Post subject: Re: Fuel Lines and Fuel Pump

 	  Afterfxllc(at)aol.com wrote: 	
		  Roger

  

 I  would go 4 oz just for a margin of safety....

  

 Jeff

 

	


 

  

I think I'll live large and take it all the way to a Quart......



Now where did I put my measuring cup  



Larry

larry(at)macsmachine.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Dec 27, 2008 7:17 am Post subject: Fuel Lines and Fuel Pump

Dave,

Not to worry about ethanol eating aluminum. The trucks delivering the 

stuff are using aluminum to convey and transfer

the ethanol as well as lots of vehicles burning the stuff with aluminum 

in them.  I'm running aluminum tanks and lines

and burn 87-octane with 10% ethanol.  Do replace the fuel filter and 

short rubber hoses each side of the filter every year though.



Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com



Dave Austin wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 I think I've heard that ethanol in the fuel will eat up aluminum so 

 the alum pipes are not a good idea.  Any comments?

 Dave Austin  601HDS - 912

Al Hays

Joined: 01 Oct 2007
Posts: 42
Location: Gore, VA

Posted: Sat Dec 27, 2008 7:42 am Post subject: Fuel Lines and Fuel Pump

I'll be replacing the kit supplied rubber fuel lines which the previous builder put in the wings.  I plan to use stainless steel tubing which is sold in coils for brake and fuel lines with AN hardware and braided line with earls fittings where there may be flexing or routine service.  I had rubber fuel line (for vapor recovery at the tank) fail on a 2003 model U.S. made vehicle in 2005.  We used copper fuel lines in older cars for many years but don't know how it would last with today's mogas.  My fuel pumps will be on the engine side of the firewall.



Al Hays

601XL N5892H reserved

 

On Dec 27, 2008, at 9:34 AM, jaybannist(at)cs.com (jaybannist(at)cs.com) wrote:

[quote] Larry,

 

 I have the fuel pumps mounted on the engine side of the firewall.  I have a short run of the kit-furnished fuel hose from the fuel tank to a fitting inside the fuselage (at the hole provided for this in the dual stick bracket). The rest of the fuel lines are braided. I mis-matched some components in this first fitting and had a leak there, pressured only by the hydraulic head of the fuel in the half-full tanks.  Once that was corrected, I have had no leaks.  

 

 The fuel selector is in the center of the center console.  I have had no problem getting fuel to the carburetor. 

 

 I absolutely did not want the fuel lines in the cabin to be under pressure.  The only reason I could justify having fuel pumps at the tanks would be to fill a header tank that feeds the carburetor by gravity.

 

 Jay in Dallas

 Do not archive

 

  

 

  

 

 --

Ron Lendon

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 685
Location: Clinton Twp., MI

Posted: Sat Dec 27, 2008 10:39 am Post subject: Re: Fuel Lines and Fuel Pump

 	  lwhitlow wrote: 	
		  



Ron,

 

If I'm looking at that picture correctly, you came out of the tank to an AN fitting and then to the braided line through the nose ribs.



What's your connection at the wing root into the fuselage?



Larry 	




Larry,



My plan is to run the braided line through grommets  to the selector valve.  I am using the center stick and following WW's "Corvair/601 Engine Installation Manual".



Once the wings go on the plane and everything is plumbed and wired I hope to never have to detach them.  If I do need to detach them though I will just disconnect at the tank and remove the wings.

Brady

Joined: 26 May 2008
Posts: 182
Location: Poulsbo, WA

Posted: Sat Dec 27, 2008 11:15 am Post subject: Re: Fuel Lines and Fuel Pump

Gentlemen,



I agree with Jeff's opinion on the aluminum tubing.

I have plumbed my fuel system entirely with aluminum tubing thus far and will do so to the firewall.

The only flexible line is from the firewall to the engine and that is the braided line like the one pictured in Ron's post.



Rubber fuel Lines:

If the rubber fuel line was supplied with the pump and the pump was purchased from an automotive parts supplier, it is safe to assume that the lines are for that application and therefore probably will not be affected by the ethanol.

Any fuel line purchased for the automotive application should be ethanol safe.

 

Hose clamps:

Standard practice in the Marine Industry is to double clamp all hose fittings below the waterline for safety. Obviously that would increase weight in the aircraft application and that would be undesirable.

There are always spring clamps available.

Spring clamps are very common in fuel systems and you can get the clamps at any auto parts store.



AN fittings are in my opinion the best way to go with either hose or tubing.



Fuel pump Placement:

Fuel pumps are designed to provide pressure, not draw a vacuum.

Obviously they will draw some vacuum but this is not their intended purpose nor their strong suite.

The fuel pumps should be placed as low in the system as possible but not lower than the gascolator. They should be placed after the Gascolator to avoid as much debris going through the pump as possible. Pre-pump filters are common on many fuel systems. As long as the pumps are below the tanks outlet and are gravity fed they will pump. I would prefer the pumps be as close to the engine as possible. I think the firewall is the best place for them.



That being said, the pumps are sufficiently strong to supply the pressure as far away as the wing roots. 

So I think that option should work as well.

_________________
Brady McCormick
Poulsbo, WA
www.magnificentmachine.com

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