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Afterfxllc(at)aol.com
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 Posted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 9:22 am Post subject: Cell phones and flying |
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Gang
I need to know at what altitude a cell phone will lose it's signal? I have a Sprint Internet card and wanted to broadcast via web cam my flight from Louisville to Florida live in the 601XL but I don't know if I will have a signal. I know I will lose signal over the mountains more than likely but it will auto reconnect when it finds it again.
Thanks,
Jeff Garrett
Louisville Ky.
601XL N962T Aerolite Corvair 90%
601XL N524B Aerolite Corvair 155 Hrs
601XL N2257 Aerolite Corvair 225 Hrs
www.aeroliteproducts.com
www.project601xl.com
www.aerolite.camstreams.com
Do not archive
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frankroskind(at)HOTMAIL.C
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| Posted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 9:42 am Post subject: Cell phones and flying |
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The use of cellular telephones in aircraft appears to be prohibited by FCC regulation: http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_2005/octqtr/47cfr22.925.htm
From: Afterfxllc(at)aol.com
Date: Tue C 6 Jan 2009 12:17:48 -0500
Subject: Cell phones and flying
To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com
Gang
I need to know at what altitude a cell phone will lose it's signal? I have a Sprint Internet card and wanted to broadcast via web cam my flight from Louisville to Florida live in the 601XL but I don't know if I will have a signal. I know I will lose signal over the mountains more than likely but it will auto reconnect when it finds it again.
Thanks C
Jeff Garrett
Louisville Ky.
601XL N962T Aerolite Corvair 90%
601XL N524B Aerolite Corvair 155 Hrs
601XL N2257 Aerolite Corvair 225 Hrs
www.aeroliteproducts.com
www.project601xl.com
www.aerolite.camstreams.com
Do not archive
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Afterfxllc(at)aol.com
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| Posted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 10:07 am Post subject: Cell phones and flying |
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Thank you for that very informative post.... now can you answer the question? I never said I was going to use my cell phone but wanted to know when the signal will be lost. Maybe you can find me an as informative link that will answer my question.
Jeff
New year...new news. Be taolcom00000026">headlines.
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japhillipsga(at)aol.com
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| Posted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 10:24 am Post subject: Cell phones and flying |
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Jeff, if Governors can sell U.S. Senate seats and Congressmen can keep $90,000. in bribe money in their freezer then you as an American taxpayer should be able to use your cell phone while flying the airplane you built. I have a copy of the U.S. Constitution setting right here on my desk and I can't find the dammed FCC anywhere in there. Go for it and best of luck, Bill
--
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frankroskind(at)HOTMAIL.C
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| Posted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 10:27 am Post subject: Cell phones and flying |
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The following link says a tower has a service area of about 10 square miles. Using the area formula C r**2=10/pi. That implies a radius of about 9420 feet. Thus your slant range to the tower would need to be about 9420 feet. If there is a tower every mile that implies you could fly to about 7800 feet above the tower height. http://www.mobiledia.com/guides/page1.html
From: Afterfxllc(at)aol.com
Date: Tue C 6 Jan 2009 13:06:22 -0500
Subject: Re: Cell phones and flying
To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com
Thank you for that very informative post.... now can you answer the question? I never said I was going to use my cell phone but wanted to know when the signal will be lost. Maybe you can find me an as informative link that will answer my question.
Jeff
New year...new news. Be taolcom00000026">headlines.
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jmaynard
Joined: 27 Feb 2008
Posts: 394
Location: Fairmont, MN (FRM)
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| Posted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 10:40 am Post subject: Cell phones and flying |
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On Tue, Jan 06, 2009 at 01:06:22PM -0500, Afterfxllc(at)aol.com wrote:
| Quote: | Thank you for that very informative post.... now can you answer the
question? I never said I was going to use my cell phone but wanted to know when the
signal will be lost. Maybe you can find me an as informative link that will
answer my question.
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If you're going to broadcast via web cam, you're going to be transmitting,
and that's prohibited - for a VERY good reason: the cellphone network was
not designed to handle cellphone transmitters in flight, and does not do it
well. It causes an extremely heavy load on every cell site that can see your
phone, and there are LOTS of them if you're at any altitude.
It's a really bad idea. Don't even think about it. Record and upload later.
--
Jay Maynard, K5ZC, PP-ASEL, AGI http://www.conmicro.com
http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
Fairmont, MN (KFRM) (Yes, that's me!)
AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC http://www.tronguy.net/N55ZC.shtml
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Jay Maynard, K5ZC
AMD Zodiac XLi N55ZC |
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Afterfxllc(at)aol.com
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| Posted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 10:41 am Post subject: Cell phones and flying |
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Now that's what this list is for...... Thank you very much. If this works it will be cool to watch a live flight and if my wings fall off I'll be sure to let you know exactly what is happening all the way to the crash site.
Jeff
| Quote: | The following link says a tower has a service area of about 10 square miles. Using the area formula, r**2=10/pi. That implies a radius of about 9420 feet. Thus your slant range to the tower would need to be about 9420 feet. If there is a tower every mile that implies you could fly to about 7800 feet above the tower height. http://www.mobiledia.com/guides/page1.html
From: Afterfxllc(at)aol.com
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 13:06:22 -0500
Subject: Re: Cell phones and flying
To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com
Thank you for that very informative post.... now can you answer the question? I never said I was going to use my cell phone but wanted to know when the signal will be lost. Maybe you can find me an as informative link that will answer my question.
Jeff
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New year...new news. Be taolcom00000026">headlines.
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jmaynard
Joined: 27 Feb 2008
Posts: 394
Location: Fairmont, MN (FRM)
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| Posted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 10:41 am Post subject: Cell phones and flying |
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On Tue, Jan 06, 2009 at 01:26:23PM -0500, Frank Roskind wrote:
| Quote: | The following link says a tower has a service area of about 10 square
miles. Using the area formula, r**2=10/pi. That implies a radius of
about 9420 feet. Thus your slant range to the tower would need to be
about 9420 feet. If there is a tower every mile that implies you could
fly to about 7800 feet above the tower height.
http://www.mobiledia.com/guides/page1.html
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That is only valid for a ground level station, and includes effects such as
attenuation from trees and buildings and the curvature of the earth. A cell
site can see a phone from much farther away if it's airborne.
--
Jay Maynard, K5ZC, PP-ASEL, AGI http://www.conmicro.com
http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
Fairmont, MN (KFRM) (Yes, that's me!)
AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC http://www.tronguy.net/N55ZC.shtml
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jmaynard
Joined: 27 Feb 2008
Posts: 394
Location: Fairmont, MN (FRM)
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| Posted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 10:49 am Post subject: Cell phones and flying |
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On Tue, Jan 06, 2009 at 01:40:29PM -0500, Afterfxllc(at)aol.com wrote:
| Quote: | Now that's what this list is for...... Thank you very much. If this works it
will be cool to watch a live flight and if my wings fall off I'll be sure to
let you know exactly what is happening all the way to the crash site.
|
Don't forget to tell us about the fine from the FCC, too. They've been known
to do that.
--
Jay Maynard, K5ZC, PP-ASEL, AGI http://www.conmicro.com
http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
Fairmont, MN (KFRM) (Yes, that's me!)
AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC http://www.tronguy.net/N55ZC.shtml
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jaybannist(at)cs.com
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| Posted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 10:53 am Post subject: Cell phones and flying |
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Jeff,
If you are not going to use your cell phone in the air, you will loose the signal when you turn your cell phone off.
Jay in Dallas
Do not archive
--
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Jeyoung65(at)aol.com
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| Posted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 11:04 am Post subject: Cell phones and flying |
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If you have troubles in the air PLEASE DO NOT use your cell phone to call for help, wait till after you crash and then use your cell phone to call for help!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  Jerry of GA Do not archive
In a message dated 1/6/2009 1:54:07 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, jaybannist(at)cs.com writes:
| Quote: |
Jeff,
If you are not going to use your cell phone in the air, you will loose the signal when you turn your cell phone off.
Jay in Dallas
Do not archive
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latest news - from fashion trends to celebrity break-ups and everything in between.
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jaybannist(at)cs.com
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| Posted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 11:13 am Post subject: Cell phones and flying |
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That is exactly what I did. I called 911. The other guy called his wife (?).
Jay in Dallas
Do not archive
--
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dave(at)algoa.net
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| Posted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 11:58 am Post subject: Cell phones and flying |
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Here is a pretty good technical explanation of 'why not' from Wikipedia. The short version is that, while it will likely work, it is just as likely to cause other paying users of the cell system to suffer an increased number of dropped calls and chopped audio. Leaving a path of people looking at their cell phones wondering what happened to their call just so you can show hopefully boring in-flight video seems more than a little rude to both the cell company and fellow Americans. Might I suggest that you stream the video to hard disk and then use a free video editing package to make something for youTube? That way you can share the adventure without leaving a trail of illegal 'rf droppings' along your path.
Dave
pilot and ham radio operator
The U.S. Federal Communications Commission currently prohibits the use of mobile telephones aboard any aircraft in flight. The reason given is that mobile phone systems depend on channel reuse, and operating a phone at altitude may violate the fundamental assumptions that allow channel reuse to work.[citation needed]
Mobile telephones are intentionally designed with low power output. A tower is the center of a "cell" and due to attenuation with distance (inverse square law) cell phone transmissions can usually be received only weakly by towers in adjacent cells, and not at all in cells farther away (non-adjacent cells). This allows the channel used by any given phone to be reused by other phones in non-adjacent cells. This principle allows tens or hundreds of thousands of people to use their phones at the same time in a given metropolitan area while using only a limited number of channels.
Channel reuse works because from a mobile phone on the ground, there will only be one "closest" tower that can possibly use a particular group of frequencies, CDMA codes, or time slots. The software that manages the system assumes that the signal from a phone on a particular tower can, on other towers, only be "heard" at greatly reduced signal strength. The frequency, code, or time slot used by the phone can therefore be reused by other phones on other towers.
In the old analog cell system a channel was simply a frequency pair; there were seven groups of 35 channels each, and no two adjacent cells used the same channel groups. Modern CDMA and TDMA systems are more complex: A channel in TDMA is a frequency pair and a time slot, and a channel in CDMA is a spread spectrum key, but the principle of channel reuse still applies.
If a mobile phone is operated from an aircraft in flight above a city, this assumption is no longer valid, because the towers of many different cells may be about equidistant from the phone. Multiple towers might assume that the phone is under their control. The phone could be assigned a free channel by one tower, but could be heard on other towers using the same channel group, and the channel might already be in use on those towers. This could cause interference with existing calls. It is possible that the software controlling the towers could crash.[citation needed] Even if the software can cope with hearing the same phone on multiple, non-adjacent towers, the result at best is an overall decrease in the system's capacity.
An additional concern is the output power of the mobile handset. Because the towers might be many miles below the aircraft, the phone might have to transmit at its maximum power to be received. This will increase the risk of interference with electronic equipment on the aircraft.
To protect the integrity of the electronic control and navigation equipment aboard large airliners in commercial service, the use of cellphones designed for terrestrial service is forbidden. The FCC, however, did allocate spectrum in the 450 MHz and 800 MHz frequency bands for use by equipment designed and tested for safety for air-to-ground service, and these systems use widely separated ground stations. In the 450 MHz band, co-channel assignments are at least 497 miles apart, and in the 800 MHz band, only specific sites were authorized by the FCC. The 450 MHz service is limited to "general aviation" users (corporate jets mostly), while the 800 MHz spectrum can be used by airliners as well as general aviation. The 450 MHz is named AGRAS, while the 800 MHz service is under review following an auction of spectrum in 2006.
On Tue, Jan 6, 2009 at 12:41 PM, Jay Maynard <jmaynard(at)conmicro.com (jmaynard(at)conmicro.com)> wrote:
[quote] --> Zenith-List message posted by: Jay Maynard <jmaynard(at)conmicro.com (jmaynard(at)conmicro.com)>
On Tue, Jan 06, 2009 at 01:26:23PM -0500, Frank Roskind wrote:
> The following link says a tower has a service area of about 10 square
> miles. Using the area formula, r**2=10/pi. That implies a radius of
> about 9420 feet. Thus your slant range to the tower would need to be
> about 9420 feet. If there is a tower every mile that implies you could
> fly to about 7800 feet above the tower height.
> http://www.mobiledia.com/guides/page1.html
That is only valid for a ground level station, and includes effects such as
attenuation from trees and buildings and the curvature of the earth. A cell
site can see a phone from much farther away if it's airborne.
--
Jay Maynard, K5ZC, PP-ASEL, AGI http://www.conmicro.com
http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
Fairmont, MN (KFRM) (Yes, that's me!)
AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC http://www.tronguy.net/N55ZC.shtml
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psm(at)att.net
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| Posted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 12:42 pm Post subject: Cell phones and flying |
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Hi Jeff,
Cell phones operate from about 800 MHz to over 2 GHz depending on which type of phone you have. These are all pretty much line of sight signals.
The problem with using these phones from airplanes is the signals are received by hundreds or even thousands of cell phone towers at the same time. This is not a problem when you have an established base station but it becomes a nightmare for the network when it comes time for a hand-off from one tower to another.
I don't know the legal ramifications of using a cell phone in an airplane, but I do know it causes great technical problems for the network providers.
If you really feel a need to broadcast real time video from your airplane, perhaps you should look into some sort of satellite service.
Paul
XL getting close
do not archive
At 10:06 AM 1/6/2009, you wrote:
[quote]
I need to know at what altitude a cell phone will lose it's signal? I have a Sprint Internet card and wanted to broadcast via web cam my flight from Louisville to Florida live in the 601XL but I don't know if I will have a signal. I know I will lose signal over the mountains more than likely but it will auto reconnect when it finds it again.
Thanks,
Jeff Garrett[b]
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rans6andrew
Joined: 23 Nov 2008
Posts: 16
Location: Berks, UK
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| Posted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 2:08 pm Post subject: Re: Cell phones and flying |
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the range to altitude will be very variable because the base station aerials will be optimised for coverage at ground level. They may be adjusted to give good coverage along roadways and railways but not for airways. Add to this the way that the power output and time delays of your handset is controlled by the signal strength seen at the ground station and this has a maximum rate of adjustment that limits the speed that the handset can move at to not much more than 100mph if directly approaching or leaving the ground station. The maximum range of handsets used to be around 30 miles but I guess that the cells are much smaller than this to allow more callers to make simultaneous calls per square mile than in the early days of the digital networks.
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A good way through building a 601UL with 912UL.
Still flying Rans S6 with 503. |
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n801bh(at)netzero.com
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| Posted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 2:28 pm Post subject: Cell phones and flying |
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I have Lightspeed 20 3 G's for headsets and I keep my cell phone plugged in when I fly out here in jackson hole wy. I have great signal strength all the way up to 17,900 MSL.
do not archive
Ben Haas
N801BH
www.haaspowerair.com
-- Afterfxllc(at)aol.com wrote:
Gang
I need to know at what altitude a cell phone will lose it's signal? I have a Sprint Internet card and wanted to broadcast via web cam my flight from Louisville to Florida live in the 601XL but I don't know if I will have a signal. I know I will lose signal over the mountains more than likely but it will auto reconnect when it finds it again.
Thanks,
Jeff Garrett
Louisville Ky.
601XL N962T Aerolite Corvair 90%
601XL N524B Aerolite Corvair 155 Hrs
601XL N2257 Aerolite Corvair 225 Hrs
www.aeroliteproducts.com
www.project601xl.com
www.aerolite.camstreams.com
Do not archive
New year...new ne=emlcntaolcom00000026">headlines.
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craig(at)craigandjean.com
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| Posted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 2:43 pm Post subject: Cell phones and flying |
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Philosophical, moral, and legal issues aside I believe the twin 601XL’s built at QSP by the Smith brothers both have cellular data modems installed and connected to onboard tablet computers. I asked about how well it worked flying at altitude and was told the coverage was good.
I have my doubts about a high altitude cell phone bringing the network to its knees. I can use a cell phone from a mountain side or peak where any number of towers will see my phone. The networks aren’t that delicate. Or they work so poorly in normal circumstances that I doubt any of us would notice a few flying phones.
-- Craig
From: owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Afterfxllc(at)aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2009 10:18 AM
To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Cell phones and flying
Gang
I need to know at what altitude a cell phone will lose it's signal? I have a Sprint Internet card and wanted to broadcast via web cam my flight from Louisville to Florida live in the 601XL but I don't know if I will have a signal. I know I will lose signal over the mountains more than likely but it will auto reconnect when it finds it again.
Thanks,
Jeff Garrett
Louisville Ky.
601XL N962T Aerolite Corvair 90%
601XL N524B Aerolite Corvair 155 Hrs
601XL N2257 Aerolite Corvair 225 Hrs
www.aeroliteproducts.com
www.project601xl.com
www.aerolite.camstreams.com
Do not archive
New year...new ne=emlcntaolcom00000026">headlines.
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Gig Giacona
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1416
Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA
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| Posted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 2:49 pm Post subject: Re: Cell phones and flying |
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I have accidentally left my cell phone (AT&T) in an aircraft and signal was lost about 3000 ft msl.
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W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
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hills(at)sunflower.com
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| Posted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 3:38 pm Post subject: Cell phones and flying |
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Howdy all;
I should noted, that cell phone antennas are designed to be directional and to not radiate up, so to speak. So you could fly right over one and still not have a signal.
I think the bigger problem is locking onto several cell towers simultainously, at least that’s what the cell guys have talked about at my engineering firm.
Having said that, my flight instructor used his regularly in flight and it seam to work fine, even going cross country (2000 agl).
Roger
From: owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Afterfxllc(at)aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2009 12:06 PM
To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Cell phones and flying
Thank you for that very informative post.... now can you answer the question? I never said I was going to use my cell phone but wanted to know when the signal will be lost. Maybe you can find me an as informative link that will answer my question.
Jeff
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rsteele(at)rjsit.com
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| Posted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 5:47 pm Post subject: Cell phones and flying |
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I understand the reasoning here. What I don't understand is how this works in Europe and Canada, where it is legal to use cell phones in planes while the FCC insists we can't in the US. Seems to me either we have a very poor cellular infrastructure or the FCC is blowing smoke. The alternative is that they just don't care in Canada or Europe and I'm definitely not buying that argument.
Ron
On Jan 6, 2009, at 3:41 PM, Paul Mulwitz wrote:
[quote] Hi Jeff,
Cell phones operate from about 800 MHz to over 2 GHz depending on which type of phone you have. These are all pretty much line of sight signals.
The problem with using these phones from airplanes is the signals are received by hundreds or even thousands of cell phone towers at the same time. This is not a problem when you have an established base station but it becomes a nightmare for the network when it comes time for a hand-off from one tower to another.
I don't know the legal ramifications of using a cell phone in an airplane, but I do know it causes great technical problems for the network providers.
If you really feel a need to broadcast real time video from your airplane, perhaps you should look into some sort of satellite service.
Paul
XL getting close
do not archive
At 10:06 AM 1/6/2009, you wrote:
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I need to know at what altitude a cell phone will lose it's signal? I have a Sprint Internet card and wanted to broadcast via web cam my flight from Louisville to Florida live in the 601XL but I don't know if I will have a signal. I know I will lose signal over the mountains more than likely but it will auto reconnect when it finds it again.
Thanks,
Jeff Garrett
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