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Welding my tanks

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jfmasell(at)optonline.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2006 9:07 am Post subject: Welding my tanks

I am looking for someone who can weld my tanks. I am using 3031 tank grade

aluminum and have formed all pieces as well as purchased all fittings I need

someone who can take on the welding for my 801. I have fabrication for 4

tanks. Any recommendations?

 



John Maselli



516-524-0420

 



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frank.hinde(at)hp.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2006 9:27 am Post subject: Welding my tanks

Yes...Don't weld if you can help it...ZAC's tanks get somewhat distorted

and a better way if you can is to use riveted lap joints and an evil goo

called Proseal (available from Vans aircraft). All Vans tanks are made

very successfully this way. The nick name for Proseal is "The Black

Death"...But it sure does seal!



Welding is OK but I am not the first one to suffer a leaking tank dues

to a cracked weld (I assume from work hardening the little bent flanges

plus heat).



Then you can do it all yourself



Frank

601 HDS 394 hours 



--

jfmasell(at)optonline.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2006 9:49 am Post subject: Welding my tanks

That's great I actually made the flanges larger to accommodate welding

because I had trouble with my welds in practice I drilled for all the rivets

but then someone told me that I was going to get leaky tanks. If I can rivet

my self then I can do the job myself. But how do I rivet the fittings this

may be a bit more difficult I suppose I could make gaskets and flange rings

to rivet the fittings? But again thanks George I need encouragement to get

this portion done. It has stopped me in my tracks! 

John Maselli



A Computer Consulting



516-524-0420

 



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frank.hinde(at)hp.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2006 10:12 am Post subject: Welding my tanks

Fittings depends on how you do them. Vans uses standard bulkhead

fittings (Aluminium ones from Vans are cheapest or you can get steel

ones from your local hydraulics shop for very cheap at the expese of

more weight). Anyway, make a washer from 1/8th aluminum (hole cutters

make almost instant washers...Just need to make the hole bigger in the

middle.



Put a bead of BD under the washer and under/around the bulkehead fitting

and wrench in place..A nice bead around the flange inside of the fitting

will make it leak proof...roung up the tank walls and degrease where you

want the BD to stick. 



I would either use solid rivets or blind rivets that have no hole in the

middle rather than rely on a dab of black death over hole in the rivet.

Rivets on outside flanges (that don't protrude into the tank) can be

normal "pop" rivets.



Works great....Messy but great!



I would get the BD in a can because you can mix up a bit at a time...The

small (less than 6 ounces) are one shot mixing deals and it will set way

to fast to do both tanks in one hit.



The stuff does have a shelf life of a few months so make sure you going

to be close to ready before you order the BD....Tell Vans I sent ya...



Frank



--

jfmasell(at)optonline.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2006 10:35 am Post subject: Welding my tanks

Thanks Frank will tell Vans and the flange washer idea sounds good I already

bought the aluminum fittings from aircraft spruce. I order the quart of

proseal (They have new stuff on vans replaces proseal calls flamemaster) I

will get a few smaller 6oz jars to do the fittings first. I believe this

will work!

John Maselli



A Computer Consulting



516-524-0420

 



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rdewees(at)mindspring.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2006 11:31 am Post subject: Welding my tanks

Hi John,

If you go with a sealant, I would suggest that it's as compatible with 

as many fuels as possible.  Several old sealers weren't compatable with 

auto fuel and/or autofuel with alcohol in it.  Don't know what motor you 

are using but if you even think that the next owner could use autofuel, 

look at the best sealer for it and 100LL.

Just a suggestion-- I use 99% auto fuel in my Jab 3300 and it works great.

Ron



John Maselli wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  



That's great I actually made the flanges larger to accommodate welding

because I had trouble with my welds in practice I drilled for all the rivets

but then someone told me that I was going to get leaky tanks. If I can rivet

my self then I can do the job myself. But how do I rivet the fittings this

may be a bit more difficult I suppose I could make gaskets and flange rings

to rivet the fittings? But again thanks George I need encouragement to get

this portion done. It has stopped me in my tracks! 

John Maselli



A Computer Consulting



516-524-0420

steveadams

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 191

Posted: Tue Mar 28, 2006 5:37 am Post subject: Re: Welding my tanks

I guess I will be the dissenting opinion in this discussion. While Vans does use the rivet/proseal method, it is not without it's shortcomings. It seems to be the most dreaded part of the build for many builders, and leaky tanks are a significant  problem with this method as well. RV's are designed for this type of tank and they can be removed for servicing if needed. Browse the RV lists and you will see a lot of discussion about the tanks and problems encountered. While I have seen some discussion on this board concerning leaks in welded tanks, the leaks have been discovered for the most part with testing prior to installation. I have not noticed a problem with welds cracking after the airplane has been flying. The zodiac design is for the tank to be within the wing, rather than an intregal part of the wing. Getting to the tank after closing the wing involves opening up the wing skin. Yes it is difficult to properly weld a tank, and requires a skilled and experienced welder to do right. Yes the tanks are a bit deformed looking sometimes. But if done correctly and adequately tested for leaks prior to installation, I believe it is a superior tank for the Zodiac design. Just my opinion.

frank.hinde(at)hp.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Mar 28, 2006 7:26 am Post subject: Welding my tanks

Mine failed after about 250 hours and had to be removed for

re-welding...Not the end of the world but welded tanks do fail.



Proseal is not THAT hard to work with having built two RV tanks....Its a

bit like fixing a sewer leak....Thinking about it is the worse part...



Frank



HDS 394 hours 



Do not archive



I guess I will be the dissenting opinion in this discussion. While Vans

does use the rivet/proseal method, it is not without it's shortcomings.

It seems to be the most dreaded part of the build for many builders, and

leaky tanks are a problem with this method as well. RV's are designed

for this type of tank and they can be removed for servicing if needed.

Browse the RV lists and you will see a lot of discussion about the tanks

and problems encountered. While I have seen some discussion on this

board concerning leaks in welded tanks, the leaks have been discovered

for the most part with testing prior to installation. I have not noticed

a problem with welds cracking after the airplane has been flying. The

zodiac design is for the tank to be within the wing, rather than an

intregal part of the wing. Getting to the tank after closing the wing

involves opening up the wing skin. Yes it is difficult to properly weld

a tank, and requires a skilled and experienced welder to do right.!

  Yes the tanks are a bit deformed looking sometimes. But if done

correctly and adequately tested for leaks prior to installation, I

believe it is a superior tank for the Zodiac design. Just my opinion.





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=24758#24758

shilocom(at)mcmsys.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Mar 28, 2006 8:36 am Post subject: Welding my tanks

I would tend to agree with the conclusion below.  When at the Zenair

workshop I watched the young lady they had welding their tanks and saw the

quality of her output and was Impressed.   So many times in discussions like

this we take Part A and apply it to aircraft B and expect it to work and it

doesn't.  I think that's really what the conclusion below is all about also.

Now IF I had to weld the tanks, and for that matter, design the tanks the

clear choice would be PRO SEAL, but that's not the case here.  My welding

and design abilities are not in the same league as Zenith.   Bob U.



---

steveadams

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 191

Posted: Tue Mar 28, 2006 11:10 am Post subject: Re: Welding my tanks

 	  frank.hinde(at)hp.com wrote: 	
		  Mine failed after about 250 hours and had to be removed for

re-welding...Not the end of the world but welded tanks do fail.



Proseal is not THAT hard to work with having built two RV tanks....Its a

bit like fixing a sewer leak....Thinking about it is the worse part...



Frank



HDS 394 hours 



Do not archive



	




True, they do occasionally fail. However, look how often the prosealed tanks get a weeping  rivet or two. Not a problem if the rivet is staring you in the face. There are ways to drill out the offending rivet and seal the leak without even having to pull the tank. In a Zodiac that is not an option, you either live with the leak (not a good option) or open up the skin and fix the tank (also not such a good option). I'm not saying that the RV is not a good design, just that you really can't build a Zodiac the same as an RV any more than you can build an RV just like a Zodiac. CH didn't include welded tanks in his design because it is easier or cheaper for them to manufacture, so in my mind there must be a good reason.

mgraves(at)usmo.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2006 5:01 am Post subject: Welding my tanks

If the 3031 is .040-.050 thick,   almost any good welding shop with a TIG 

welder will be able to do it.    Members of your local EAA can direct you 

where, if one of them can't do it.    If you still can't find a local 

welder.   Bruce Frank,   advertises in the back of the EAA rags,  to weld 

and customize fuel tanks.   From what I hear He does good work although 

I  have no idea what he charges.  There will be shipping to and from CA I 

believe..



The problem is getting the Zenith tanks welded is two things.   6061 is 

harder to weld, and the .025 thickness.   It takes a lot of practice and 

skill to weld sheet that thin on and alloy that is not commonly 

welded......Most welders won't attempt it.  Not that they can't,  its not 

worth the pain in the ass to fiddle with for such a small job.



A local EAA chapter member welded up my 701 tanks,   upon his recomendation 

I went with the 3031 Alum also and .040 thick.    I helped him clean and 

fit the seams with vice grips as he welded,  and each tank took aprox 2-3 

hours of time to complete and pressure test.  He did a nice job and they 

turned out great.



Depending on welders rates in your area,  this should give you some idea of 

what each tank will cost to get it welded.



If you decide to go ahead and weld instead of rivet.  Save the 3031 scrap 

pieces, and takes some along to the weld shop.   The welder may need some 

patch fill pieces for the corners.   If you cut a fraction too big a notch, 

there will be a gap when the lips are folded over and mated to the side pieces.



Monty Graves





 	  Quote: 	
		  



I am looking for someone who can weld my tanks. I am using 3031 tank grade

aluminum and have formed all pieces as well as purchased all fittings I need

someone who can take on the welding for my 801. I have fabrication for 4

tanks. Any recommendations?

John Maselli



516-524-0420

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