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aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 22, 2009 2:24 pm Post subject: HKS readings for the day

OAT   65RPM 5050 to 5400 (cruise)

CHT L 270/275        R 286/290

EGT L 1240/1254     R 1220/1230

Oil temp    150

fuel used    3 gallons

flt time       1.5 hours

 



Rick

  [quote][b]

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Thu Jan 22, 2009 3:24 pm Post subject: HKS readings for the day

What kind of aircraft?

  

 Load?

  

 Prop?

  

 Cruise speed? 

  

 Looking at your info leads me to believe you were  just loafing along.  The engine is red lined at 6200 rpm.  Normal  cruise is 5800 rpm.

  

 Oil temp is not hot enough to cook off  condensation.

  

 I can get 2.5 gph at 4000 rpm which gives me 65 mph  with a fat mkIII loaded down with camping gear and 150 lbs of fuel.   However, that is too slow to get the oil to the 190F to burn off  condensation.  I'd rather fly 5000 rpm, 85 mph, and burn 5 gph.  My  oil temp stays up around 210 to 230F.

  

 Been wanting to fly but still trying to get over a  "bug" for three weeks now, and it has been down right too cold and windy here  for fun flying.  I am saving lots of gas money though.  Gonna need it  come next Spring.  

  

 See ya'll at MV2009!

  

 john h

 mkIII

  

  

 [quote]OAT      65   RPM 5050 to 5400 (cruise)

   CHT L 270/275        R 286/290

   EGT L 1240/1254     R 1220/1230

   Oil temp    150

   fuel used    3 gallons

   flt time       1.5 hours

   



   Rick

 	  Quote: 	
		   	
[b]

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 22, 2009 4:14 pm Post subject: HKS readings for the day

Northwing trikejust me

Powerfin 4 blade "F" 68" set for 6100 RPM climb

55 mph GPS average

Oil temp is measured after the cooler and tank, never gets above 185 in the summer. HFT laser thermometer measured hot side at 210 last summer so figure the reading is 25 degrees lower on the cold side. 

 Put a pan of water on the stove, raise temp to 180, it still evaporates away, just slower. I change oil at 50 hours, use full synthetic and cut open my filters for inspection, never seen any sludge on oil tank cap, in oil after a drain, or in the little viewing line that runs up the side of the tank.

 Anything above 5400 RPM in cruise means I have to fight to keep from climbing. All I get for the effort is sore arms and a bigger fuel burn. I don't like giving Big Oil my money any more than I have to.

 Report is mainly for Larry C. as he's fighting high CHT's. I know others who have the same problem, so I posted to group.

Rick 



On Thu, Jan 22, 2009 at 5:23 PM, John Hauck <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com (jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com)> wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		         What kind of aircraft?

  

 Load?

  

 Prop?

  

 Cruise speed? 

  

 Looking at your info leads me to believe you were  just loafing along.  The engine is red lined at 6200 rpm.  Normal  cruise is 5800 rpm.

  

 Oil temp is not hot enough to cook off  condensation.

  

 I can get 2.5 gph at 4000 rpm which gives me 65 mph  with a fat mkIII loaded down with camping gear and 150 lbs of fuel.   However, that is too slow to get the oil to the 190F to burn off  condensation.  I'd rather fly 5000 rpm, 85 mph, and burn 5 gph.  My  oil temp stays up around 210 to 230F.

  

 Been wanting to fly but still trying to get over a  "bug" for three weeks now, and it has been down right too cold and windy here  for fun flying.  I am saving lots of gas money though.  Gonna need it  come next Spring.  

  

 See ya'll at MV2009!

  

 john h

 mkIII



  

  

  	  Quote: 	
		  OAT      65   RPM 5050 to 5400 (cruise)

   CHT L 270/275        R 286/290

   EGT L 1240/1254     R 1220/1230

   Oil temp    150

   fuel used    3 gallons

   flt time       1.5 hours

   



   Rick

 	  Quote: 	
		   	
	
   ==== get="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List tp://forums.matronics.com _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution  [/b] 	


[b]

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Thu Jan 22, 2009 4:28 pm Post subject: HKS readings for the day

That won't help Larry a whole lot because, if I  understand correctly, he is operating his HKS at 5800 rpm cruise.  It is  working a lot harder at 5800 and generating a lot more heat.

  

 912's measure engine oil temp in the oil pump after  the cooler.  Rotax wants 912's to get at least 190F.  If I don't, I'll  have a milky looking goop on the under side of the oil tank cap.

  

 john h

 mkIII

 [quote]    Anything above 5400 RPM in cruise means I    have to fight to keep from climbing. All I get for the effort is sore arms and    a bigger fuel burn. I don't like giving Big Oil my money any more than I have    to.

   Report is mainly for Larry C. as he's fighting high CHT's. I know others    who have the same problem, so I posted to group.

   



   Rick 

 

[b]

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

lucien

Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 721
Location: santa fe, NM

Posted: Thu Jan 22, 2009 6:59 pm Post subject: Re: HKS readings for the day

 	  John Hauck wrote: 	
		  That won't help Larry a whole lot because, if I  understand correctly, he is operating his HKS at 5800 rpm cruise.  It is  working a lot harder at 5800 and generating a lot more heat.

  

 912's measure engine oil temp in the oil pump after  the cooler.  Rotax wants 912's to get at least 190F.  If I don't, I'll  have a milky looking goop on the under side of the oil tank cap.

  

 john h

 mkIII

	




I freaked a bit the first time I saw the milky stuff syndrome on my oil cap too as a new 912 driver. I was looking all over for coolant getting into the oil, etc., until a friend of mine told me it was a symptom from the oil not getting hot enough for a long enough time.



I have the oil thermostat on mine and when it's really cold out I still have to run the motor hard to get the temps to at least 180. 



There have been days cold enough that the temps couldn't hit 180, so I landed and called it quits. Too cold on the oil is hard on the engines according to rotax.....



LS

_________________
LS
Titan II SS

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Thu Jan 22, 2009 7:39 pm Post subject: HKS readings for the day

 	  Quote: 	
		   I have the oil thermostat on mine and when it's really cold out I still 

 have to run the motor hard to get the temps to at least 180.



 There have been days cold enough that the temps couldn't hit 180, so I 

 landed and called it quits. Too cold on the oil is hard on the engines 

 according to rotax.....



 LS


	




Lucien:



I looked at thermostats, but never could come around to install all that 

extra plumbing.  John W had a thermostat on his 912S for a while, but 

removed it because it was not that efficient.  He went back to manually 

blocking off the radiator to bring up CHT and eng oil temp.  I do the same 

thing.  My eng oil cooler is piggy backed on the radiator.  By taping the 

area of the radiator that extends beyond each side of the oil cooler, I can 

bring CHT and eng oil temps up where they belong.  The 912UL and 912ULS both 

run much better when CHT is kept up and above 180F.



I don't think eng oil temps below 190 are hard on the engine.  I use 4W40 

Shell Rotella full syn.  It flows well hot and cold.  The crankcase and oil 

tank will become contanminated with condensation if run too long below 190.



The minimum of 120F before going full power is to keep eng oil pressure 

below the max which I can not remember now.  Had to look it up:  101.5 psi.



When I was flying with the 912UL, I bypassed the oil cooler in the winter, 

then hooked it back up in the summer.  Can't do that with the 912ULS, it 

runs much warmer than the 80 horse.



john h

mkIII

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

zeprep251(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 5:35 am Post subject: HKS readings for the day

The oil temp with cooler equipped engines need adjustable air supplies.Fooling with taping off the front of the cooler is hit and miss.Does anyone have a simple, reliable system yet?(this is submitted for a friend with a 912S in a Savannah)

 

   

 

   

 

 --

williamtsullivan(at)att.n
Guest

Posted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 5:49 am Post subject: HKS readings for the day

Instead of blocking off the front of the radiator, has anyone tried making a set of shutters- like they used to use on old diesel trucks?  Simple to make, and could be either cable controlled or by a thermostat.  Same problem, same solution.

  

                                                Bill Sullivan

                                                Windsor Locks, Ct.

 [quote][b]

jbhart(at)onlyinternet.ne
Guest

Posted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 6:07 am Post subject: HKS readings for the day

Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 08:34:36 -0500

From: zeprep251(at)aol.com

 	  Quote: 	
		  

The oil temp with cooler equipped engines need adjustable air 
	


supplies.Fooling with taping off the front of the cooler is hit and 

miss.Does anyone have a simple, reliable system yet?(this is submitted for a 

friend with a 912S in a Savannah)

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 
	


zeprep251,



I have had a radiator shutter on the FireFly for several years and it works 

very well.  I see no reason why the same scheme cannot be applied to an oil 

cooler  It can be seen at:



http://www.thirdshift.com/jack/firefly/firefly123.html

http://www.thirdshift.com/jack/firefly/firefly67f.html

http://www.thirdshift.com/jack/firefly/firefly76.html



Jack B. Hart FF004

Winchester, IN

mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.co
Guest

Posted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 6:47 am Post subject: HKS readings for the day

Jack,

 

  As usual, very innovative, and a real nice job.  I do have a question for you, though.  You made a reference to weights, and they seem confusing to me.  You mention the unit weighs .9 oz.  Or, a part weighs .2 oz.

  These sure seem light!!  Did you mean 9 oz, and 2 oz., etc?

 

  Also, does your coolant system have a built-in thermostat?

 

Mike Welch

MkIII



----------------------------------------

 	  Quote: 	
		   Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 09:08:46 -0500

 To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

 From: jbhart(at)onlyinternet.net

 Subject: Re: Re: HKS readings for the day



 



 Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 08:34:36 -0500

 From: zeprep251(at)aol.com

>

 The oil temp with cooler equipped engines need adjustable air

 supplies.Fooling with taping off the front of the cooler is hit and

 miss.Does anyone have a simple, reliable system yet?(this is submitted for a

 friend with a 912S in a Savannah)

>



 zeprep251,



 I have had a radiator shutter on the FireFly for several years and it works

 very well. I see no reason why the same scheme cannot be applied to an oil

 cooler It can be seen at:



 http://www.thirdshift.com/jack/firefly/firefly123.html

 http://www.thirdshift.com/jack/firefly/firefly67f.html

 http://www.thirdshift.com/jack/firefly/firefly76.html



 Jack B. Hart FF004

 Winchester, IN



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John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 7:10 am Post subject: HKS readings for the day

Well, I have to disagree on that one.

  

 John Williamson and I have more than 4,000 hours  flying the 912UL and 912ULS in my mkIII and his Kolbra.  Our system works  great.  Usually, a couple wraps of tape when the cold temps of winter  arrive is all it takes.  It is not a daily chore.

  

 My philosophy of flying is "keep it simple".   The less "stuff" I have to contend with on my aircraft and the less "stuff"  I have to do, the better off I am aviating.

  

 Like I shared with you all yesterday, reducing the  size of the coolant radiator takes care of increasing CHT, which makes the 912  run better, and also brings up engine oil temp.  The 912 is primarily an  oil cooled engine.  The heads are oil and water cooled.  The cylinders  are air cooled.  No need to block the oil cooler.

  

 john h

 mkIII - Might get to exercise the mkIII this  afternoon.  Weather if looking good.

  

  

 [quote]   ---

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

ulflyer(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 7:34 am Post subject: HKS readings for the day

Way back a long, long, time ago when I was flying Piper Cherokee's I 

recall that when winter came on they would install a winterization 

plate which reduced the airflow to the oil cooler.  You might have to 

do the same thing with your 912's and HKS engines to keep the oil 

temps high enough during cold weather months.

jerb

At 08:59 PM 1/22/2009, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

John Hauck wrote:

 > That won't help Larry a whole lot because, if I  understand 

 correctly, he is operating his HKS at 5800 rpm cruise.  It 

 is  working a lot harder at 5800 and generating a lot more heat.

 >

 >  912's measure engine oil temp in the oil pump after  the 

 cooler.  Rotax wants 912's to get at least 190F.  If I don't, 

 I'll  have a milky looking goop on the under side of the oil tank cap.

 >

 >  john h

 >  mkIII

 >

I freaked a bit the first time I saw the milky stuff syndrome on my 

oil cap too as a new 912 driver. I was looking all over for coolant 

getting into the oil, etc., until a friend of mine told me it was a 

symptom from the oil not getting hot enough for a long enough time.

I have the oil thermostat on mine and when it's really cold out I 

still have to run the motor hard to get the temps to at least 180.

There have been days cold enough that the temps couldn't hit 180, so 

I landed and called it quits. Too cold on the oil is hard on the 

engines according to rotax.....

LS

--------

LS

Titan II SS

Read this topic online here:

http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 26279#226279

lucien

Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 721
Location: santa fe, NM

Posted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 9:24 am Post subject: Re: HKS readings for the day

 	  ulflyer(at)verizon.net wrote: 	
		  Way back a long, long, time ago when I was flying Piper Cherokee's I 

recall that when winter came on they would install a winterization 

plate which reduced the airflow to the oil cooler.  You might have to 

do the same thing with your 912's and HKS engines to keep the oil 

temps high enough during cold weather months.

jerb

	




Well the oil thermostat works fine for the oil temp. Below 180f, there's no oil flowing through the oil cooler anyway.  Its probably the super cooled CHT's that are preventing the oil temp from getting up to the green in those cases where it still stays below that.



I've used the tape method in the past and like John says it works pretty well, but I havn't found the correct amount of tape to use. On mine, the oil cooler is mounted directly in front of the radiator which does help when oil is flowing through the cooler. 



There are several different shutter designs I've been considering and all of them so far are too hard to retrofit and fail in a closed position, etc.



I havn't tried taping off the radiator itself on each side of the oil cooler as John suggested - that may very well be the ticket.



We're having a mild winter this year, tho, so I havn't had too much problem yet. I've been able to run 180 to 190f so I havn't messed with this yet.



I may have a go with the tape the way John suggested tho if it turns cold again....



LS

_________________
LS
Titan II SS

jbhart(at)onlyinternet.ne
Guest

Posted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 12:06 pm Post subject: HKS readings for the day

At 06:47 AM 1/23/09 -0800, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  

Jack,

 

  As usual, very innovative, and a real nice job.  I do have a question for 

you, though.  You made a reference to weights, and they seem confusing to 
	


me.  You mention the unit weighs .9 oz.  Or, a part weighs .2 oz.

 	  Quote: 	
		    These sure seem light!!  Did you mean 9 oz, and 2 oz., etc?

 

  Also, does your coolant system have a built-in thermostat?

 


	


Mike,



The weights listed are correct.  When you have a defined empty weight limit, 

you must keep component weight down.



No, the system does not include a thermostat.  The one supplied by Simonini 

weighed too much. 



Jack B. Hart FF004

Winchester, IN

lcottrell

Joined: 29 May 2006
Posts: 1494
Location: Jordan Valley, Or

Posted: Sun Jan 25, 2009 9:37 pm Post subject: HKS readings for the day

[quote] ---

_________________
do not archive

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Mon Jan 26, 2009 7:10 am Post subject: HKS readings for the day

Larry:

  

 Are you reading both heads?

  

 Any chance the CHT senders are not the correct  sender, or unserviceable?

  

 Seems like if the heads are primarily oil cooled  the oil temps would run higher.

  

 I'm just guessing.

  

 john h

 mkIII

  

 [quote]    I do not see any correlation between the oil temps and the    actual CHT's, so I have to think that is just tight.

    	  Quote: 	
		       Larry C,  Oregon

	
[b]

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

lcottrell

Joined: 29 May 2006
Posts: 1494
Location: Jordan Valley, Or

Posted: Mon Jan 26, 2009 7:44 am Post subject: HKS readings for the day

[quote] ---

_________________
do not archive

by0ung(at)brigham.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 12:11 pm Post subject: HKS readings for the day

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------  

   

Yes, it reads both and shows the highest reading. They are the sensors supplied by EIS for their unit, and are brand new. I find it very puzzling as well.  

Larry C,    	  Quote: 	
		   	
  

 	  Quote: 	
		  >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   

   
	


You say the cht temps are high,,,,,   and the oil is low….    How high are the cht?  

I am with john…   the returning oil from the heads should cool the heads and raise the oil temp.  

   

   

Boyd   

   

Do not archive  

   

       [quote][b]

aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 1:38 pm Post subject: HKS readings for the day

If you suspect the CHT senders are the cause of incorrect readings, take them out of the heads and stick the tip in a pan of boiling water. If the EIS doesn't read 212 (or 100 if your EIS is set for metric reading) you've at least isolated the problem to the sensing system.  Have you checked the jet needle position. Mine came with the clip set on the second groove from the top, I raised the needles by moving the clip to the 3rd position and the heads cooled right down.

Do you use the stock vacuum pulse driven fuel pump? If so, how is your fuel pump connected? Did you (or your supplier) tee the balance line between the intake manifolds for the pulse line to the fuel pump. Check for vacuum leaks there, check the pump diaphragm for leaks, too.

 Have you mechanically and pneumatically synched your carbs? That can cause CHT problems as the two cylinders fight each other. The Rotax owners site has a great e-learning module that explains the process and why it is important. The method in the HKS manual has not been updated to reflect the addition of a balance tube between the intake manifolds. Contact Dana at Hpower LTD. They have a service bulletin on this. Frankly, the Rotax method works better and you can download the 912 Line Maintenance manual. The method is described in Section 12-00-00 pages 21 through 25.

  Have you checked the carb boots? If they have a crack in a carb boot, the mixture will go lean and the CHT's go up. Mine were rotted out after just 50 hours. HKS has a service bulletin about this, too, although the problem with the supplier is supposed to have been fixed some time ago.

 



Rick

do not archive



 On Tue, Jan 27, 2009 at 2:05 PM, boyd <by0ung(at)brigham.net (by0ung(at)brigham.net)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		                 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------    

   

Yes, it reads both and shows the highest reading. They are the sensors supplied by EIS for their unit, and are brand new. I find it very puzzling as well.  

Larry C,    	  Quote: 	
		   	
  

 	  Quote: 	
		  >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     

   
	


You say the cht temps are high,,,,,   and the oil is low….    How high are the cht?  

I am with john…   the returning oil from the heads should cool the heads and raise the oil temp.  

   

   

Boyd   

   

Do not archive  

   

       ==== get="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List tp://forums.matronics.com _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution  [/b] 	


[b]

lcottrell

Joined: 29 May 2006
Posts: 1494
Location: Jordan Valley, Or

Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 6:09 pm Post subject: HKS readings for the day

Hi,

    Boyd,The last time I flew I was doing 5750  rpm's oil temps were 157 and CHT was 329 degrees.

  

   Richard, I have not changed anything from the way  it came from the factory. I only have about 4.5 hours on it now. I may indeed  check the clip positions, it has just been too cold to do anything right now.  Good point though.

  

 I did sync the carbs using tubing and Marvel Mystery oil  as a marker. I squeezed the balance tubes shut using wood blocks and vice grips.  They were quite a bit out of synch. It is smoother, but not cooler.

  

 I do have the pulse pump and a facet fuel pump and the  balance lines are teed. Other than that every thing else appears to be ok.  I just think that it is tight. If it does not improve with more time, then it  will be time to get worried.

  

 Thanks

 Larry C

 [quote]   ---

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