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Broken tail FireStar 2

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frank.goodnight(at)att.ne
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 02, 2009 5:17 am Post subject: Broken tail FireStar 2

At 60 hrs and no rough handling the short cromemolly tube that is  

welded to the ring that is attached to the tail boom broke. there are  

2 stubs , one on top of the ring and one on the bottom.

The one on the bottom broke. Also the very bottom aluminum tube broke.  

My vertical stabalizer is very nearly ready to leave the A/C. I fold  

my plane every time I fly , so I was lucky enough to

have my face a foot from the break when I went to attach my tail  

wires. The tail had moved enough to tear the fabric , but it would  

have been hard to catch on a normal preflight if had been left unfolded.



   After talking to Travis and Dennis at Kolb we found out that the  

factory had left out 3 gussets when they welded up the tailpost <one  

on the top stub and 2 on the bottom> They have sent  me the gussets

and enough tubeing to make a repair.



   Also I talked to Brian Milborne and he said that someone had just  

called him about a wrinkle in the fabric in the area we are talking  

about . That plane will be coming to Brian for a condition inspection

soon, So maby Brian will have more to say after he looks at it.



Frank Goodnight

HKS FireStar 2

zeprep251(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 02, 2009 7:05 am Post subject: Broken tail FireStar 2

Frank,

  I also broke those parts,but I was using the brakes.to swing the plane around when parking and put a lot of twisting load on things.The first thing to fail was the aluminum tube that goes from the bottom of the tail post up to the tail boom,right where it leaves the steel.Replaced it with a thicker tube,then broke the bottom stub tube at the ring you mentioned shortly after,but I was really watching things closely every time I folded by then.Drilled the tail assy off and had it welded, with some gussets,ordered a full swivel tail wheel assy. from Travis and modified it to use the stock tail wheel.Other than the pain from hack sawing the new tail wheel  assy. in two,it has stayed intact.I thought I was the cause of the failure by the way I drug the wheel sideways when turning.You were not doing that?

 

                            G.Aman

 

 --

NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 02, 2009 7:34 am Post subject: Broken tail FireStar 2

A friend of mine's FSII broke in the same place. It seems that this is a 

weak link in a lot of Kolbs (normally high time) even with gussets. I bolted 

aluminum straps (1 X 1/ from the sides of the fuselage tube to the lower 

vertical stabilizer to keep mine from breaking.  John H 1st reported this as 

a weak point and suggested a similar fix on his MKIII.



Rick Neilsen

Redrive VW powered MKIIIC



---

frank.goodnight(at)att.ne
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 02, 2009 7:38 am Post subject: Broken tail FireStar 2

Yes I have locked one brake , added about 1/2 power to turn around in a tight place . When I talked to Travis I explained , He said it was not a very good thing to do , however most Kolb driversdo it at one time or another. I won"t do it again. I also ordered a full swivel tail wheel. Why did you replace the wheel that came with full swivel unit with the original one?



  Thanks for your input.



Frank Goodnight

HKS FireStar 2 



  I guess the point of my post was  so other FireStar owners will be aware that the tail assy. CAN break. Incidentally the people at Kolb told me that they had never heard of those parts breaking.

On Feb 2, 2009, at 9:00 AM, zeprep251(at)aol.com (zeprep251(at)aol.com) wrote:

[quote] Frank,

  I also broke those parts,but I was using the brakes.to swing the plane around when parking and put a lot of twisting load on things.The first thing to fail was the aluminum tube that goes from the bottom of the tail post up to the tail boom,right where it leaves the steel.Replaced it with a thicker tube,then broke the bottom stub tube at the ring you mentioned shortly after,but I was really watching things closely every time I folded by then.Drilled the tail assy off and had it welded, with some gussets,ordered a full swivel tail wheel assy. from Travis and modified it to use the stock tail wheel.Other than the pain from hack sawing the new tail wheel  assy. in two,it has stayed intact.I thought I was the cause of the failure by the way I drug the wheel sideways when turning.You were not doing that?

 

                           G.Aman

 

 --

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Mon Feb 02, 2009 10:08 am Post subject: Broken tail FireStar 2

> A friend of mine's FSII broke in the same place. It seems that this is a

 	  Quote: 	
		   weak link in a lot of Kolbs (normally high time) even with gussets. I 

 bolted aluminum straps (1 X 1/ from the sides of the fuselage tube to 

 the lower vertical stabilizer to keep mine from breaking.  John H 1st 

 reported this as a weak point and suggested a similar fix on his MKIII.



 Rick Neilsen


	




Rick N:



Here are a few photos of what I did, plus one that Gary Haley did with 

aluminum strap.



I have some photos of my tail post after modifying and prior to covering. 

If I run across them, I will post.



john h

mkIII

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_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

Arksey(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 02, 2009 11:09 am Post subject: Broken tail FireStar 2

I had a crack in the vert. stab. tube between the tail wheel  and the main boom. I got a tube from Travis at kolb that they turned down to  slide into the vert. stab. tube. I remove only enough fabric to work on the  cracked area, hacked sawed it completely off, cleaned it up, inserted turned  down tube so that there was several inch's  above and below the break ( I  could spring the tail wheel to one side and insert the turned tube up into the  vert. stab tube and then bring it back down into the lower part of tube), used J  P Weld on the tube before inserting. I put a bolt thru the vert stab tube above  and below the break and thru the inserted tube. This was quite easy to do and I  did not have to tear it all apart to weld it. I feel it is a safe repair and has  help up ok for the last year...I am also going to put the braces on that John H.  has shown. Yes it pays to look things over.   Cold and snow up here in  Michigan, looking forward to spring and flying.   Jswan

  

 do not archive

  

 JSWAN  firestar ll michigan

 Great Deals on Dell Laptops. Starting at $499.

  [quote][b]

Dana

Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 1047
Location: Connecticut, USA

Posted: Mon Feb 02, 2009 2:41 pm Post subject: Broken tail FireStar 2

At 01:02 PM 2/2/2009, John Hauck wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  Here are a few photos of what I did, plus one that Gary Haley did with 

aluminum strap.



I have some photos of my tail post after modifying and prior to covering. 

If I run across them, I will post.


	


I like that... the same area has always concerned me on my US (especially 

with the 1/16" tail brace wires), though I've had no problems so far.  Was 

that an existing bolt in the tube or did you drill out one of the rivets?



It doesn't look like you have an "H" section inside the tube like the US, 

though, is this correct?



I'm also tempted to redo the elevator connection like that, instead of the 

US arrangement where I have to install the pin and ring every time I unfold 

the tail.



-Dana



do not archive

--

  A computer lets you make more mistakes faster than any invention in

human history... with the possible exception of handguns and tequila.

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Mon Feb 02, 2009 3:16 pm Post subject: Broken tail FireStar 2

> I like that... the same area has always concerned me on my US (especially

 	  Quote: 	
		   with the 1/16" tail brace wires), though I've had no problems so far.  Was 

 that an existing bolt in the tube or did you drill out one of the rivets?


	


 	  Quote: 	
		   It doesn't look like you have an "H" section inside the tube like the US, 

 though, is this correct?



 I'm also tempted to redo the elevator connection like that, instead of the 

 US arrangement where I have to install the pin and ring every time I 

 unfold the tail.



 -Dana


	




Dana:



The photo of the aluminum strap is Gary Haley's mkIII.  I'm sure he drilled 

out a rivet in the ring and a new hole in the lower vertical stabilizer 

tube.



Dan Horton came up with the idea for the external braces on my tail post, 

after several attempts at strengthening it with gussets.  He ovalized some 

3/8 or 1/2" 4130 tubes, we didn't have and streamlined ones, then welded to 

the tail post ring and the bottom tube.



MKIII does not use tubes, rather a ring for tail post attachment.



Most folks think the wire bracing on the tail section is for bracing.  Not 

true.  Their function in life is to keep the vertical and horizontal 

stabilizers positioned.  The only lateral bracing on the tail post is where 

the top and bottom stub tubes are welded to the top and bottom of the tail 

post ring.  On the ground, especially without a full swivel tail wheel, 

there are tremendous lateral loads placed on the tail post in the area of 

the ring.  Those two little external braces do a good job of beefing up 

lateral strength in the tail post.  I installed mine in 2004, after I 

discovered the tail post had broken in two at the bottom of the ring.  This 

happened within days of my return from Alaska.  I was very fortunate.



If I was flying an Ultrastar, I think I would got to 3/32" tail wires.  I 

flew mine with 1/16" wire, but that was 25 years ago.  I lot of experience 

has flowed under the bridge since then.  I look at a lot of "stuff" quite 

differently now than I did back then.



john h

mkIII

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

Dana

Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 1047
Location: Connecticut, USA

Posted: Mon Feb 02, 2009 7:05 pm Post subject: Broken tail FireStar 2

At 06:14 PM 2/2/2009, John Hauck wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  The photo of the aluminum strap is Gary Haley's mkIII.  I'm sure he 

drilled out a rivet in the ring and a new hole in the lower vertical 

stabilizer tube.


	


Makes sense... lacking the ring, though, I'd have to rivet something to the 

back of the tube, but I could use the existing bolt at the bottom that 

holds the tailwheel strut in.



 	  Quote: 	
		  Most folks think the wire bracing on the tail section is for bracing.  Not 

true.  Their function in life is to keep the vertical and horizontal 

stabilizers positioned.


	


Well, the certainly brace the horizontal stabilizer!  But no, they don't do 

anything to brace the tailpost.



I'd love to go with a swivel tailwheel, if I could find one light enough.



-Dana



do not archive



--

  Q: Why is it that New Jersey got all the toxic waste dumps and California 

got all the lawyers?

A: New Jersey had first choice.

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Mon Feb 02, 2009 7:21 pm Post subject: Broken tail FireStar 2

---

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Mon Feb 02, 2009 7:34 pm Post subject: Broken tail FireStar 2

---

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

zeprep251(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 6:34 am Post subject: Broken tail FireStar 2

Frank,

      Two reasons really.I have a track in the trailer that has a groove in it to guide the plane back into the trailer,and the small cross tube just above the wheel, has two small loops welded to it for my tow bar.The swivel tail wheel is beefy and heavy and I'm already heavy in the tail.So I cut the pivot bolt off just below the flange and had the original cross tube and tail wheel  assy. welded with 2 small gussets to the bottom of that  bolt.Saved some weight and allowed me to use the old tail wheel rig.The tough part was  shortening the bar where the chains and s hooks attach and drilling two new holes in it to keep the steering geometry the same That bar is extremely hard.Almost as hard as staring at that $ 307.00 assy.in the vise when you have a hacksaw in your hand.

   G Aman

       

 

   

 

   

 

 --

frank.goodnight(at)att.ne
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 6:37 am Post subject: Broken tail FireStar 2

I"m writeing this post to thank the people that responded to my  

problem. After being told by Kolb that they had never heard of this  

happening to any of their airplanes, and being new to Kolb , and  

flying in

general I was in a rather deep funk. I knew I could do a repair ,BUT  

if it broke once it might break again and I might not catch it in  

time. Finding that it"s rather common ,and that we have a simple  

permanent

fix was a big relief. I will be sending Matt some money to help keep  

the website going . It"s already been worth it. THANKS again.



Frank Goodnight

HKS FireStar 2

On Feb 2, 2009, at 7:15 AM, frank.goodnight wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 >



 At 60 hrs and no rough handling the short cromemolly tube that is  

 welded to the ring that is attached to the tail boom broke. there  

 are 2 stubs , one on top of the ring and one on the bottom.

 The one on the bottom broke. Also the very bottom aluminum tube  

 broke. My vertical stabalizer is very nearly ready to leave the A/C.  

 I fold my plane every time I fly , so I was lucky enough to

 have my face a foot from the break when I went to attach my tail  

 wires. The tail had moved enough to tear the fabric , but it would  

 have been hard to catch on a normal preflight if had been left  

 unfolded.



  After talking to Travis and Dennis at Kolb we found out that the  

 factory had left out 3 gussets when they welded up the tailpost <one  

 on the top stub and 2 on the bottom> They have sent  me the gussets

 and enough tubeing to make a repair.



  Also I talked to Brian Milborne and he said that someone had just  

 called him about a wrinkle in the fabric in the area we are talking  

 about . That plane will be coming to Brian for a condition inspection

 soon, So maby Brian will have more to say after he looks at it.



 Frank Goodnight

 HKS FireStar 2

capedavis(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 6:49 pm Post subject: Broken tail FireStar 2

John , Isnt it amazing how "wisdom" sneeks up on you ,and how you think you dont have any!

Chris

   From: John Hauck <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com>

To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

Sent: Monday, February 2, 2009 6:14:42 PM

Subject: Re: Broken tail FireStar 2

--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com (jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com)>

 	  Quote: 	
		   I like that... the same area has always concerned me on my US (especially

 with the 1/16" tail brace wires), though I've had no problems so far.  Was that an existing bolt in the tube or did you drill out one of the rivets?

 	  Quote: 	
		   It doesn't look like you have an "H" section inside the tube like the US, though, is this correct?

 I'm also tempted to redo the elevator connection like that,  instead of the US arrangement where I have to install the pin and ring every time I unfold the tail.

 -Dana

Dana:

The photo of the aluminum strap is Gary Haley's mkIII.  I'm sure he drilled out a rivet in the ring and a new hole in the lower vertical stabilizer tube.

Dan Horton came up with the idea for the external braces on my tail post, after several attempts at strengthening it with gussets.  He ovalized some 3/8 or 1/2" 4130 tubes, we didn't have and streamlined ones, then welded to the tail post ring and the bottom tube.

MKIII does not use tubes, rather a ring for tail post attachment.

Most folks think the wire bracing on the tail section is for bracing.  Not true.  Their function in life is to keep the vertical and horizontal stabilizers positioned.  The only lateral bracing on the tail post is where the top and bottom stub tubes are welded to the top and bottom of         [quote][b]

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