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yak52
Joined: 25 Oct 2007
Posts: 50
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 Posted: Mon Feb 02, 2009 6:05 am Post subject: A gentle suggestion |
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The level of discourse on this website would be greatly enhanced if the following statement was never seen or heard again:
I have not reviewed the plans or specifications of(fill in the blank), nevertheless it is my opinion that (fill in the blank) is better, stronger, swifter , etc. than (fill in the blank).
All of you should be aware that merely putting in "do not archive" does not remove those comments from the web, and that all of these pithy little statements are being stored and may be retrieved for later use against you. Please consider the following scenario after you have an incident where person or property are injured or damaged:
Plaintiff's attorney:
Mr. Zenith builder/flyer, did you advise your passenger that you considered this airplane to have a design defect before the flight?
Mr. Zenith builder/flyer, did you deviate in any way from the plans and specifications from those provided to you by the professional aeronautical engineer that designed the aircraft?
Mr. Zenith builder/flyer, did you advise your passenger of those changes or deviations prior to the flight?
Mr. Zenith builder/flyer, what educational and/or experience qualifications do you have to gauge those changes and/or engineering analysis did you do after making those changes?
Now it really won't matter what you say because the attorney will have your email exchanges to impeach you with; or if you don't survive the crash, to use in the suit against your estate and deprive your wife and/or children of their inheritance.
And, by the way, unless you fully advise your passenger of all those items, a waiver or release of liability is ineffective in most states.
So, let's all think before we type and realize that words and actions can have consequences beyond getting flamed on the web or defaming some one's profession and character..
[quote][b]
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psm(at)att.net
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| Posted: Mon Feb 02, 2009 7:24 am Post subject: A gentle suggestion |
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Hi Roger,
I appreciate your comment. However, I would like to relate a recent
experience I had getting insurance for my XL.
The insurance agent said I could only get $100,000 coverage for my
passenger. When I asked if this was sufficient, she said the
insurance companies and courts don't have a lot of concern over
losses by passengers in experimental airplanes. She pointed out that
anyone getting into an experimental airplane actively takes a
considerable risk.
I think the same goes for anyone who flies an experimental
airplane. Your concern over law suits is a good one, but I suspect
it is a bit over done in this particular case.
Paul
XL getting close
do not archive
At 06:04 AM 2/2/2009, you wrote:
| Quote: | The level of discourse on this website would be greatly enhanced if
the following statement was never seen or heard again:
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PatrickW
Joined: 27 Oct 2006
Posts: 380
Location: Fort Worth, Texas
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| Posted: Mon Feb 02, 2009 10:01 am Post subject: Re: A gentle suggestion |
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| yak52 wrote: | | Mr. Zenith builder/flyer, did you... |
Curious if anything like this ever happened...?
Maybe within the much larger on-line community of the RV folks? Or maybe in the community of the Pietenpol folks, which goes back many years, or any other builder community? Has anything like this ever happened resulting from comments in publications in the EAA magazines (like in "letters to the editor" or "builder completions", etc) over the years?
IMHO, this is whole thing is just plain simple fear mongering, with the intent of stifling online discussions of topics that are of interest to ordinary people who are building their own experimental airplanes.
- Pat
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bryanmmartin
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1018
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| Posted: Mon Feb 02, 2009 1:52 pm Post subject: A gentle suggestion |
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Very few, if any homebuilders have been sued over the crash of their
airplanes. There is simply no money in it. The ambulance chasers
generally go after the deep pockets and home builders generally don't
have enough money to make them a worthwhile target. That's one of the
reasons people build their own airplane rather than buying a new
$500,000 Cessna or Beech. Even in the John Denver case, the builder
was not named in the law suit even though two companies that had
absolutely nothing to do with the accident were named. In fact, unless
you have substantial assets to protect, carrying a big insurance
policy just makes you a bigger target for the bottom feeding
parasites. The risk of a homebuilder being sued is not zero, but it's
not something I would worry too much about.
On Feb 2, 2009, at 4:08 PM, Sabrina wrote:
| Quote: |
<chicago2paris(at)msn.com>
Gary,
It's not a bad idea.
I think what Yak52 might be getting at is that the builder/mfg is
almost always sued here after a crash.
If you still own it and especially if you were flying it, your
insurance policy will protect you/your estate.
If you sell the aircraft and do not maintain "tail end" coverage,
you are exposed to liability. Even if you win, you have legal bills.
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Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL,
RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.
do not archive.
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_________________
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Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
do not archive. |
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bryanmmartin
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1018
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| Posted: Mon Feb 02, 2009 4:36 pm Post subject: A gentle suggestion |
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What ever gave you that idea? Was it the "ambulance chaser" bit or the
"bottom feeding parasite" bit?
I got my information from my own research and experience. I will admit
I have not done exhaustive research into the subject and just because
there haven't been many lawsuits filed against individual homebuilders
up till now doesn't mean it won't happen. But the simple fact is that
most tort lawyers won't bother spending a lot of time and effort
unless there is a bit pile of money involved. The best way to avoid
getting sued is to be a small target. That's why I don't have
insurance on the airplane and don't have an umbrella policy. If I'm
ever involved in a crash in my little puddle jumper that causes enough
damage to warrant a lawsuit, it won't matter to me because I probably
won't survive the crash anyway.
On Feb 2, 2009, at 5:55 PM, Sabrina wrote:
| Quote: |
<chicago2paris(at)msn.com>
I take it Bryan you are not a fan of insurance agents or lawyers.
I have found most of my EAA153 builder buddies extremely wealthy.
Most spend more on their panel than I spent on the entire aircraft.
Where did you get your facts from? A lawyer or an insurance agent?
Did you ever think that person told you not to worry because they
knew you had an umbrella policy or insurance on the craft itself?
Who here is not worried about their liability for a craft they built
after they sell it?
Has anyone asked their insurance agent if their homeowners or
umbrella policy covers it?
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Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL,
RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.
do not archive.
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_________________
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Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
do not archive. |
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paulrod36(at)msn.com
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| Posted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 4:04 pm Post subject: A gentle suggestion |
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<?xml:namespace prefix="v" /><?xml:namespace prefix="o" /><![endif]-->
This subject comes up every couple of years. One poster said he intended to destroy it rather than sell it. It's easy for anybody to sue. The trick is to win, and thereafter, to collect. The salient points of this running argument have been that : a: There must be enough money to go after for the lawyer to be interested. (that lets me out). b: There should be some wordage in the bill of sale to the effect that the DISASSEMBLED (it shouldn't be sold as a flying aircraft) parts are not warranted to be airworthy, c:assembly is at the new owner's risk, d:there should be some sort of release document executed by the buyer, and e:it ought to contain a paragraph in which the new owner pledges the assets of his estate to defend the seller.
Me, personally, I'd include the following wordage: "Seller warrants and guarantees that flight in this aircraft constitutes knowing acceptance of extreme risk, and that such flight is guaranteed, upon impact with the earth, to result in either serious injury or death." If a guy doesn't kill himself and decides to sue for breach of warranty, my defense would be that he hasn't flown it long enough, and therefore has not completely executed the contract.
Paul Rodriguez
[quote] ---
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Gig Giacona
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1416
Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA
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| Posted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 5:26 pm Post subject: Re: A gentle suggestion |
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Hundreds of flying kit built planes are sold by their builders in flying condition every year. I have yet to find a single case where the new owner or his survivors has successfully sued the builder after an accident.
If you know of such a case post it. If you don't have access to that sort of data just get me a state and one of the names and I'll look it up.
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_________________
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR |
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