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Troy Maynor

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 162

Posted: Sat Jan 31, 2009 8:18 pm Post subject: Wing Walk Tape

Hey Fellow Europa Folks,

 Hope all are flying or building well. Question: for  you that have put wing walk on, how wide a path is best up the wing? ACS sell  some that is clear and is 16" x 30" and another variety that comes in 6" or  12" wide, sold by the lineal foot. I was thinking of buying one of the 16" x 30"  and splitting it down the middle to do both wings. I think the clear or  translucent would be preferable to white or black. White would most likely not  be the matching shade to the white on the plane and black would cook the wing.  Thoughts?

 Troy Maynor

   [quote][b]

nwcmc(at)tiscali.co.uk
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 01, 2009 1:30 am Post subject: Wing Walk Tape

I didn’t want to spoil the finish of the painted wing so I have a strip of lightweight rubber matting for those who wish to walk onto the wing. This is then rolled up and stored in one of the headrests. This only gets used for guest passengers as we enter the aircraft by sitting on the leading edge and then swinging our legs straight into the footwells. This requires a little more agility but is easy once mastered.   

   

Nigel Charles  

   

--

ptag.dev(at)tiscali.co.uk
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 01, 2009 6:43 am Post subject: Wing Walk Tape

Hi! Troy  

Mine are approx 9” wide and only pass about 12” in front of the spar.  They are a very abrasive stick on type but I thought green looked inviting ……until I felt the wing on a sunny hot day. Then I had to spray them white!  

Regards  

Bob Harrison.  

   

--

loboloda(at)execulink.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 01, 2009 7:14 am Post subject: Wing Walk Tape

Hi Troy,

I do the the same as Nigel, using some non skid matting, that I think is intended to line cupboard drawers etc,

The wing walk stick ons soon start to look ratty.



Dave, C-FBZI  -   snowed in since  the beginning of November....  

On 1-Feb-09, at 4:01 AM, nigel charles wrote:

[quote]  

I didn’t want to spoil the finish of the painted wing so I have a strip of lightweight rubber matting for those who wish to walk onto the wing. This is then rolled up and stored in one of the headrests. This only gets used for guest passengers as we enter the aircraft by sitting on the leading edge and then swinging our legs straight into the footwells. This requires a little more agility but is easy once mastered. 

 

Nigel Charles

 

--

paul.the.aviator(at)gmail
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 01, 2009 8:02 am Post subject: Wing Walk Tape

Hi Folks



I do this on my XS, but while doing an annual this year I noticed

cracking in the paint.  This area isn't designed for loads, and in my

case it is obviously causing an issue so I will have to go back to

wing walk tape.  Classic wings might be stronger in this area and may

just be fine.



I weigh 170 pounds / 77 Kg



Paul



 	  Quote: 	
		  

 This only gets used for guest passengers as we enter the aircraft by sitting

 on the leading edge and then swinging our legs straight into the footwells.

 This requires a little more agility but is easy once mastered.



 Nigel Charles

karelvranken(at)hotmail.c
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 01, 2009 10:14 am Post subject: Wing Walk Tape

Hi Troy,

 I used the two 16" x 30" clear of ACS. Your feet  are not always in flight direction when embarking. My shoes are about 12"; when  they are transverse on the direction 16" of wing walk is not to large.  

 Best regards,

 Karel Vranken # 447  F-PKRL.

 [quote]   ---

paul.the.aviator(at)gmail
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 01, 2009 11:01 am Post subject: Wing Walk Tape

Hi Karel,



I used to have the original white wing walk tape that came from

Europa, but it got "dirty" looking after a while and no amount of

scrubbing would clean it.  Does the clear stuff from ACS hold up any

better ?



 	  Quote: 	
		   Hi Troy,

 I used the two 16" x 30" clear of ACS. Your feet are not always in flight

 direction when embarking. My shoes are about 12"; when they are transverse

 on the direction 16" of wing walk is not to large.

 Best regards,

 Karel Vranken # 447  F-PKRL.

budyerly(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 01, 2009 12:31 pm Post subject: Wing Walk Tape

<?xml:namespace prefix="v" /><?xml:namespace prefix="o" /><![endif]-->  Wing Walk area tapes are notorious about looking dirty with any other color  but black.  A piece of carpet with a rubber non stick mat sewn on the  bottom works well.  The non skid mat is a soft dimpled thin rubber  material used by woodworkers for routing pads or sold in stores for use in  kitchen sinks.  Jerry Hope has a carpet piece of carpet about 10 inches  wide by 20 inches long for the wing and an 8x12 for a seat protector when  stepping in.  Just brush it off when seated and throw in the back.

  

 As for those nasty cracks in the filler due to flexing near the spar and  wing fillet, only the extra layers of glass support can cure that.  In the  future, wings will have the rib numbers increased in this area and skin stiffed  to provide for added stiffness for the not so svelte guys like me.

  

 Bud Yerly

 Custom Flight Creations.

  

 ---

karelvranken(at)hotmail.c
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 01, 2009 1:40 pm Post subject: Wing Walk Tape

Paul,

Some people clean their plane after each flight, and perhaps it ought to be 

so. I am rather of that kind who clean when there is no evidence to escape. 

Sometimes you will see footprints on the walk tape but cleaning is not a big 

problem. The problem is that I can't compare with other materials due to 

lack of experience.

Best greetings,

Karel Vranken.

---

rick(at)amimotormanagemen
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 02, 2009 3:59 am Post subject: Wing Walk Tape

Hi Bud

  

 I've always used the  bottom on leg swing method but recently (500 hours) I've noticed two  6"  cracks in the paint on the top spar line about 8" out from the wing fillet. My  inspector is slightly worried and says he will talk to Andy about it. Have you  seen much of it?

  

 Cheers

  

 Rick

 G-RIKS Tri 500  hours. 



   From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of ALAN  YERLY

Sent: 01 February 2009 20:23

To:  europa-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Wing Walk  Tape

 

<?xml:namespace prefix="v" /><?xml:namespace prefix="o" /><![endif]-->  Wing Walk area tapes are notorious about looking dirty with any other color  but black.  A piece of carpet with a rubber non stick mat sewn on the  bottom works well.  The non skid mat is a soft dimpled thin rubber  material used by woodworkers for routing pads or sold in stores for use in  kitchen sinks.  Jerry Hope has a carpet piece of carpet about 10 inches  wide by 20 inches long for the wing and an 8x12 for a seat protector when  stepping in.  Just brush it off when seated and throw in the back.

  

 As for those nasty cracks in the filler due to flexing near the spar and  wing fillet, only the extra layers of glass support can cure that.  In the  future, wings will have the rib numbers increased in this area and skin stiffed  to provide for added stiffness for the not so svelte guys like me.

  

 Bud Yerly

 Custom Flight Creations.

  

 ---

ptag.dev(at)tiscali.co.uk
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 02, 2009 6:50 am Post subject: Wing Walk Tape

Hi! Rick.  

My classic wing was built with a multi bid layer behind the wing spas and slightly forward of the spa to take the weight of feet , I guess the quick build skinned wings will have less numbers of bid lays for “bony bums”? However the down side is that on a trike with the onset of the persons age it does get to be a challenge to not tread on the flap and sometimes with a full compliment of fuel the a/c tends to tip back.  

Regards  

Bob H G-PTAG  

   

--

budyerly(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 02, 2009 7:09 am Post subject: Wing Walk Tape

<?xml:namespace prefix="v" /><?xml:namespace prefix="o" /><![endif]-->  Yes, for those of you who enter from the leading edge, the forward D tube  of the wing is foam and glass sandwich only supported by the root rib and the  next rib is nearly 16 inches further outboard.  I'm afraid the flexing of  this area means any filler in that area will crack.  The depth of the  filler is quite thick here due to the transition from the wing fillet.   That is why I have started to add glass layers over the filler from the fillet  outboard to try to stiffen this area.  The inner structural glass will hold  up to our butts sitting here, but the filler won't.  I'm afraid the area  needs a couple more ribs to prevent this as was done on the trailing edge walk  area.

  

  

 Bud

 [quote]   ---

fklein(at)orcasonline.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 02, 2009 8:15 am Post subject: Wing Walk Tape

On Feb 2, 2009, at 7:02 AM, ALAN YERLY wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  the forward D tube of the wing is foam and glass sandwich only supported by the root rib and the next rib is nearly 16 inches further outboard.  I'm afraid the flexing of this area means any filler in that area will crack.  The depth of the filler is quite thick here due to the transition from the wing fillet.  That is why I have started to add glass layers over the filler from the fillet outboard to try to stiffen this area. 	




Bud,

After following this thread, I'm tempted to suggest another possible solution.

I have some 1/8 inch Lastafoam; after sanding off the gelcoat, I could bond a piece say 6 inches wide and say 10 inches (fore and aft) onto the top of the D tube abutting the edge of the wing root fairing...then sanding it down (inboard) level with the thickness of the fairing and carefully feathering it down to nothing (outboard)...this would avoid excessive depth of filler...then cover what's left of the foam w/ some FG, say 2 layers of BID lapping over the wing root fairing.

Caution, of course, should be observed for any alteration of the airfoil, but conceptually, one would strive to maintain what results from the use of filler in this area...merely substituting foam for filler.

Your reaction?

Fred

PS: I appreciated your post a while back which cautioned against any attempts to close the trim tab control arm slots in the fuselage, saving me some time and potential grief...thanks!



--  This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean.   [quote][b]

budyerly(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 02, 2009 9:04 am Post subject: Wing Walk Tape

<?xml:namespace prefix="v" /><?xml:namespace prefix="o" /><![endif]-->  Fred,

 A foam core would work but filler would be more solid and resist those high  heels.

 In my answer to Ron Parigoris on my experiment:

  My use has been with standard 7725 Bid, two layers on the bias.  That  is the strands run at 45 degrees to the wing root rib.

  

 To stiffen the area, once the fillet is on and filled, then add layers on  top, peel ply, then fill again.  You can use flox as the filler but expand  cell will do.  Figure it this way.  The filler is now another core  material.  That makes a very stiff core and will aid in making the  elasticity lower.  If you add carbon fiber rather than E glass, it will  make it even more stiffer as the carbon will make the layer nearly rigid..

  

 I do not know without building a panel if the carbon is more  effective.  Flox and carbon would prevent a Stilleto heel from going  through the skin, but at what cost in weight.  A layer of carbon then  filler then more carbon would be super hard, very ridged and cost about another  $200 in material...  

  

 This only need be done for the guy who puts weight ahead of the spar.   Behind the spar is OK for the tail dragger crowd.  Just don't put your foot  beyond the spar.

  

 Bud.



 [quote]   ---

grahamsingleton(at)btinte
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 02, 2009 10:58 am Post subject: Wing Walk Tape

ALAN YERLY wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		     If you add carbon fiber rather than E glass, it will make it even 

 more stiffer as the carbon will make the layer nearly rigid..

  

 I do not know without building a panel if the carbon is more effective. 

  

 Bud.

Bud
	


trouble is the carbon will take all of the load because of it's very 

high modulus, that will tend to create a sharp discontinuity in strength 

at the edge of the carbon.

Graham

budyerly(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 02, 2009 12:43 pm Post subject: Wing Walk Tape

<?xml:namespace prefix="v" /><?xml:namespace prefix="o" /><![endif]-->  Exactly right Graham, but the force I am trying to fix is not a flight load  but just a wing surface plate skin stiffness for my wide butt.  If I  were to use carbon fiber, the joint needs to be tapered in to where the next rib  is.  That rib will relieve some of the discontinuity of the  carbon/glass interface.  The loaded outer skin compression over the  rib should take the discontinuity.

  

  I too believe the best fix is to use E or S glass and epoxy as a  band-aid fix.  The real fix is to add ribs and change the glass layup  sequence to add more surface stiffness for those Stilleto heels and boney  butts.

  

 For those following this, anytime that you add carbon fiber to a glass  surface, all the load is transferred to the strongest element i.e. the glass  fiber, and the epoxy is for a better word, a bonding agent.  If you put a  layer of carbon on glass, the carbon then will take all the load until the point  where the epoxy bonds surrounding the carbon fail, then the glass  would pick up the load (probably to failure).  In the case we are  discussing above, this may result in a complete de-lamination of that stiff  carbon sheet which is only held on by the filler/foam or whatever between  it and the glass skin or worse yet a buckling of the skin and  failure.  Glass epoxy structures are interesting animals in that in the  event of an extra layer of carbon is put over the glass, the difference in  stiffness (modulous of elasticity) will cause a stress riser at the edge of the  carbon layer.  This can cause numerous problems.  The outer  skin of the Europa XS is for shape and stiffness.  It is not a heavy weave  like the Classic wing.  Under loading, the upper skin is under  compression and as the glass takes up the load, a sudden junction of very  stiff carbon can cause the skin to wrinkle or even debond under  compression.  The area over the rib is transferring some of it's  shear load to the rib and is somewhat less stressed, so in my opinion,  this would be an acceptable place to make the transition.  (Look at  the wing in loading some time and you can see every rib at 3 gs as the glass  upper surface in compression slightly bends under the compression load.)   In my education on aircraft structures, it was always drummed into our  heads that the common failure mode in aircraft is a compression failure due  to buckling.  Glass structures are designed to take the compression and  sheer loads together through the orientation of the fibers.  Most of the  strength of a wing is that shell. The tension loads that are easily carried  by the lower wing skin, through the strands of glass oriented at anywhere  from 0-30 degrees, allow some of the linear stress to be taken by the shear load  of the D tube and transferred by contact and ribs to our extremely overbuilt  (thankfully) main spar and of course the upper skin.  

  

 As I said and Graham has eluded to:  Without testing on the panel, we  will never know for sure.  The theoretical solutions for analyzing  glass/epoxy structures is beyond my shops time and money.  That is why my  bandaid is bid cloth over the skin tapered to the first rib from the  root.  The thicker, now double sandwich will make that hollow leading  edge a little stiffer and the glass over the top of the filler may preclude  those cracks in the filler made by the depression of that skin on the forward D  section.

  

 Just my opinion. 

  

 Bud 

  

 ---

johnwigney(at)windstream.
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 02, 2009 1:07 pm Post subject: Wing Walk Tape

Hi Troy,



You might want to consider an inexpensive material which I used. I 

bought a roll of plain white self-adhesive kitchen drawer liner 

(hardware store supply). As I remember, I applied it about 10 inches 

wide ahead of the flap on each side.  It is inexpensive and surprisingly 

durable. Mine have been on since Day 1 and are still in good condition 

after 7 years.



Noting that frost will destroy lift on a wing, I have never been keen on 

the idea of a rough wing walk surface and this is why I chose the smooth 

surface. I have never slipped on it in the wet and also, for those 

people wanting that extra knot??, it is definitely low drag.



Cheers, John



ORIGINAL MESSAGE

From: "Troy Maynor" <wingnut54(at)charter.net>

Subject: Wing Walk Tape

Hey Fellow Europa Folks,

Hope all are flying or building well. Question: for you that have put

wing walk on, how wide a path is best up the wing? ACS sell some that is

clear and is 16" x 30" and another variety that comes in 6" or 12" wide,

sold by the lineal foot. I was thinking of buying one of the 16" x 30"

and splitting it down the middle to do both wings. I think the clear or

translucent would be preferable to white or black. White would most

likely not be the matching shade to the white on the plane and black

would cook the wing. Thoughts?

Troy Maynor

jeff(at)rmmm.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 02, 2009 1:30 pm Post subject: Wing Walk Tape

HI Troy,

For what it's worth I've never used anything other than making sure 

nobody gets on the wing feet first or with jeans of the old fashion 

back pocket rivets. Just sit on and swing legs in has worked and my 

wings still look perfect. If you put wing walk on you may be asking for 

the wing walk from some unknowing sole.

Just a thought...



Best Regards,

Jeff R.

A258 - N128LJ / Gold Rush 176 hours and climbing slowly.



On Feb 2, 2009, at 3:05 PM, John & Paddy Wigney wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <johnwigney(at)windstream.net>



 Hi Troy,



 You might want to consider an inexpensive material which I used. I 

 bought a roll of plain white self-adhesive kitchen drawer liner 

 (hardware store supply). As I remember, I applied it about 10 inches 

 wide ahead of the flap on each side.  It is inexpensive and 

 surprisingly durable. Mine have been on since Day 1 and are still in 

 good condition after 7 years.



 Noting that frost will destroy lift on a wing, I have never been keen 

 on the idea of a rough wing walk surface and this is why I chose the 

 smooth surface. I have never slipped on it in the wet and also, for 

 those people wanting that extra knot??, it is definitely low drag.



 Cheers, John



 ORIGINAL MESSAGE

 From: "Troy Maynor" <wingnut54(at)charter.net>

 Subject: Wing Walk Tape

 Hey Fellow Europa Folks,

 Hope all are flying or building well. Question: for you that have put

 wing walk on, how wide a path is best up the wing? ACS sell some that 

 is

 clear and is 16" x 30" and another variety that comes in 6" or 12" 

 wide,

 sold by the lineal foot. I was thinking of buying one of the 16" x 30"

 and splitting it down the middle to do both wings. I think the clear or

 translucent would be preferable to white or black. White would most

 likely not be the matching shade to the white on the plane and black

 would cook the wing. Thoughts?

 Troy Maynor

jrgowing(at)bigpond.net.a
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 02, 2009 1:56 pm Post subject: Wing Walk Tape

Good one Jeff!

JR

do not archive

---

grahamsingleton(at)btinte
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 02, 2009 2:40 pm Post subject: Wing Walk Tape

ALAN YERLY wrote:  

 	  Quote: 	
		    I too believe the best fix is to use E or S glass and epoxy as a 

 band-aid fix.  The real fix is to add ribs and change the glass layup 

 sequence to add more surface stiffness for those Stilleto heels and 

 boney butts.



  

 As I said and Graham has eluded to:  Without testing on the panel, we 

 will never know for sure.  The theoretical solutions for analyzing 

 glass/epoxy structures is beyond my shops time and money.  That is why 

 my bandaid is bid cloth over the skin tapered to the first rib from 

 the root.  The thicker, now double sandwich will make that hollow 

 leading edge a little stiffer and the glass over the top of the 

 filler may preclude those cracks in the filler made by the depression 

 of that skin on the forward D section.

  

 Just my opinion.

  

 Bud

Bud
	


you described the issue much better than I could, your opinion  is valued

Graham

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