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tank support layups

 
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Rowland_Carson



Joined: 04 Jul 2008
Posts: 155
Location: Cheltenham, England

PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 4:34 pm    Post subject: tank support layups Reply with quote

Done it again - come up against a query on a Friday after the factory
tech help has gone off for the weekend!

I'm trying to set up the tank for the T-shaped support layups.

(1) the tunnel in the tank and the one in the cockpit module baggage
area differ in level by about 30mm; the manual shows them
more-or-less level with a layup sailing across. Also, the profiles of
the tunnel are quite different on the tank and CM which makes the
step bigger in places. I've put in the recommended 20mm spacer
between the headrest area and the tank, and the bottom of the tank is
almost flush with the bottom of the cockpit module, so things are
correctly aligned there. Have I positioned something wrong, or is it
OK to have a 30mm joggle in the layup?

(2) how have people done the parts of the number 2 & number 3 layups
that go between the tank and the CM? Seems they would need to be put
in position with the tank slightly displaced from its correct
position to allow room to work, but shifting the tank around doesn't
seem a good idea if the number 1 layup at the front of the tank is
already done.

Any ideas?

regards

Rowland
--
| Rowland Carson LAA #16532 http://home.clara.net/rowil/aviation/
| 1190 hours building Europa #435 G-ROWI e-mail <rowil(at)clara.net>


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 5:17 pm    Post subject: tank support layups Reply with quote

Yes mine was the same in the tunnel area, some areas being about 30mm out. I
just blended it out
as best as possible. I put a small amount of flox in these areas to help
with the radius. As for the T layups
I just spread the gap slightly by reducing the packing under one end of the
CM to allow access into the area
for the layup, then replaced the packing to close the gap again. hope this
is some help

craig

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Rowland_Carson



Joined: 04 Jul 2008
Posts: 155
Location: Cheltenham, England

PostPosted: Sat Feb 21, 2009 6:48 am    Post subject: tank support layups Reply with quote

At 2009-02-21 08:59 +0000 Robert C Harrison wrote:

Quote:
I recall that the tank needs to be as high as possible ( when
viewed with the assembly in the "flying mode") This is to ensure that
the wing spars do not conflict with the ledge of tank which runs across
the width of the a/c.

Bob - thanks for that reminder. I think I can check it without
actually going to the bother of re-rigging the wings to the cockpit
module

Quote:
I don't understand your statement " flush with the bottom of the cockpit
module"? Do you mean "bottom" to mean the area which sits on the floor
of the fuselage

Yes, I meant the part that will at the bottom when everything is right way up.

Quote:
the radius of
the tank bottom does NOT sit on the fuselage it sits on more lay ups
between it and the fuselage bottom

I don't see any references in the manual to any layups under the tank
(when it is right-way-up) apart from the t-section ones I've
mentioned. The drawing in the manual shows the bottom of the tank
fairly much in line with the bottom of the baggage bay and seat parts
of the cockpit module.

regards

Rowland
--
| Rowland Carson LAA #16532 http://home.clara.net/rowil/aviation/
| 1190 hours building Europa #435 G-ROWI e-mail <rowil(at)clara.net>


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 10:50 pm    Post subject: tank support layups Reply with quote

Hi Rowland,

I would suggest (if you haven't already) making sure to soak the tank with
fuel for awhile, before fitting and glassing it, since it will expand
slightly. Otherwise, the tank would swell and create pressure points, and
small clearances might change. I should have the fluorinated tank (circa
Nov, 2001), but how can one know 100%? I believe the fluorinated tank will
swell slightly, anyway. After having the tank swell with fuel for a few
months (while doing other things, I don't think it needs to be that long),
it was apparent that the large flat, unsupported, rear faces of the tank
wanted to bulge outward, due to the weight of the fuel. Thus, once
installed, the tank will probably have a tendancy to want to push forward in
the module, but hopefully the spacers will tame it, and keep it at bay. Just
before installing the tank, I had to heat the rear tank faces and clamp them
down with a sheet of plywood and 2x4's on both sides, to get it to want to
revert back to its proper form, and allow proper tank placement in the
module, for glassing.

Upon draining the fuel, I had the tank glassed in within a day or two, to
stay ahead of the shrinkage curve.

The two most important alignment points (top and bottom, not side to side)
were the clearance of the wing spars at the top of the tank, and the fuel
outlets touching up against the pitch tube at the bottom of the tank.

I simply got the shelf of the tank to go as high as it would go in the
module (or as low as it would go, if the module is upside down), and then
tipped the tank to clear the tank outlets touching on the pitch tube, and
allow a little extra for the rubber hose. It seemed to work well. My tank
sits slightly tipped.

Once the fuel remnants dried out of the walls, the tank outlets (with the
rubber and clamps installed) were rubbing up against the pitch tube, just
slightly, especially when cold. I am confident that the addition of fuel
will regain the proper clearance. There is at least 3-4mm (guessing) of dead
air space between the very bottom brackets and the tank (not the saddle
plies, but next to the fuselage bottom, where the brackets hold the tank up
off the floor of the fuselage), due to tank shrinkage. That should
approximate the extra clearance regained between the tank outlets and the
pitch tube, when the fuel is put back in the tank. In the meantime, I placed
a tie wrap on the rubber and clamp, so that the pitch tube would wear on it,
instead of the rubber/clamp (it was mostly centered on the metal clamp).

Nowhere, did I allow the plies to stick to the tank (using benefits of
others experiences). This was done by placing plastic or plastic tape
wherever the plies contacted the tank.
This should cure the dreaded tank crack in the saddle area, that others have
experienced, especially when draining the tank for extended periods.
It will also allow for easy tank replacement later. There are measurements
in my journal as to where to cut the top of the module, to allow clearance
to pull the old tank straight up and out.

Also, on the tough, first bracket for the shelf of the tank (top side), I
make an aluminum spring to hold it to the module. It is simply a piece of
aluminum about 1 inch wide (which I covered in saran wrap) that is curved
into an arc. A hole was placed on either side of the spring, and the arc
part faced the ply, and the sides of the spring were pressed down to the
module, where the small screws held the spring in place. This held the ply
flat against the module, across its entire length, and made that part of the
job real easy. For grins and assurance to keep the ply from moving, I also
peeled back the ply (which still had its plastic backing to keep the glass
from bending out of shape), right before putting on the spring, and dabbed
small amounts of 4-minute epoxy on the module side of the bracket. That
toughest-to-do ply was the straightest and neatest one of all the plies on
the gas tank. Too bad it is the one that is the least visible Sad .

Regards,
Greg Fuchs, A050
Tigard, OR

P.S. I am sorry about your loss, recently.



At 2009-02-21 08:59 +0000 Robert C Harrison wrote:

Quote:
I recall that the tank needs to be as high as possible ( when
viewed with the assembly in the "flying mode") This is to ensure that
the wing spars do not conflict with the ledge of tank which runs across
the width of the a/c.

Bob - thanks for that reminder. I think I can check it without
actually going to the bother of re-rigging the wings to the cockpit
module

Quote:
I don't understand your statement " flush with the bottom of the cockpit
module"? Do you mean "bottom" to mean the area which sits on the floor
of the fuselage

Yes, I meant the part that will at the bottom when everything is right way
up.

Quote:
the radius of
the tank bottom does NOT sit on the fuselage it sits on more lay ups
between it and the fuselage bottom

I don't see any references in the manual to any layups under the tank
(when it is right-way-up) apart from the t-section ones I've
mentioned. The drawing in the manual shows the bottom of the tank
fairly much in line with the bottom of the baggage bay and seat parts
of the cockpit module.

regards

Rowland


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Rowland_Carson



Joined: 04 Jul 2008
Posts: 155
Location: Cheltenham, England

PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 9:52 am    Post subject: tank support layups Reply with quote

At 2009-02-23 22:46 -0800 Greg Fuchs wrote:

Quote:
I would suggest (if you haven't already) making sure to soak the tank with
fuel for awhile, before fitting and glassing it, since it will expand
slightly

Greg - I thought the gassing process was supposed to prevent this.
Certainly the new tank I have has been subject to that process.

In my conversation with Roger at the factory yesterday about several
aspects of tank mounting he was careful to mention that one
side-effect of the treatment is to make the epoxy more likely to
stick to the tank. He recommended a layer of polyethylene or similar
film between tank and layup to allow relative movement. However, he
didn't suggest soaking the tank with fuel beforehand.

Looks like another call to check could be worthwhile.

Thanks for all your tips about where interference between tank and
other structures might arise.

Quote:
I am sorry about your loss

Thanks for your kind words. It's a big change being without someone
who's shared your life for 40 years, and even worse (for the
survivor) when it comes rather suddenly. The period of adjustment
appears open-ended at present. As well as getting back to aeroplane
work, I am thinking about how Wilma's paintings might be published,
as inspiration to others who might be on the same spiritual journey.

regards

Rowland
--
| Rowland Carson LAA #16532 http://home.clara.net/rowil/aviation/
| 1190 hours building Europa #435 G-ROWI e-mail <rowil(at)clara.net>


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 4:18 pm    Post subject: tank support layups Reply with quote

Rowland,

Quote:
Greg - I thought the gassing process was supposed to prevent this.
Certainly the new tank I have has been subject to that process.

My tank only swelled a few millimeters (on the back face of the tank).
If the swelling is constant over the entire surface of the tank, then the
long straight faces would give the worst-case example of tank expansion.
Hence the back face of the tank is the extreme example. I wish I knew how
much the old tanks expanded, then it would be easier to know for sure.
(If anyone has measured their tank expansion who had the old tank, feel free
to contribute).

I can only assume that I have the new tank, since a few millimeters is not
much. Some might consider it negligible. Still (if I DO in fact have the new
tank) a few extra millimeters of clearance to the controls will be
necessary, if you don't soak the tank, initially. Actually (based on my
experience), if allowances are given, and the tank is not bonded directly,
you would probably be fine without pre-soaking the tank. I will try to
measure it today, to see if I can get a better idea on the amount of
shrinkage.

Quote:
Thanks for your kind words. It's a big change being without someone
who's shared your life for 40 years, and even worse (for the
survivor) when it comes rather suddenly. The period of adjustment
appears open-ended at present.

My thoughts are with you. I don't have much experience in this area. My
'separation' experience has to do with that ugly divorce word, and that was
very tough on me too, but no passing away was involved.
The memories stay, and the acute emotional pain does diminish, and the
sunlight shining through the clouds can be seen again, eventually.

Greg


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