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Fuel Pump Requirements on a Low Wing 601
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MHerder

Joined: 11 Feb 2008
Posts: 143
Location: Fort Worth TX

Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 1:58 pm Post subject: Fuel Pump Requirements on a Low Wing 601

I'm building an HD.  I still have to option to put a header tank in it but I'm not really fond of having fuel above my lap. I'm looking at puting a continental in there.  Most o-200's that I've found don't have a mechical fuel pump, I'm told that one can be added but it seems costly.



Would I require a fuel pump if I used a header tank?  I want redundancy.  So the question is, is there enough head pressure to feed a continental 200 with only the 1-1 1/2' of differential that there is between the bottom of  a header tank and the carb?



I'll have an electric fuel pump too, but I want the engine to still run if I have to shut down the power for some reason.



Anybody have similar thoughts or concerns?  Since most of the o-200s went into Cessna 150's, they just don;t seem to have fuel pumps too often.

_________________
Zodiac 601 HD
Jabiru 3300
Wood Sensinich 64x47
Finally Flying

vk3eka(at)bigpond.net.au
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 2:34 pm Post subject: Fuel Pump Requirements on a Low Wing 601

I am building a 601XL with an O-200 on the front and looked at the HD header

tank idea for the same reason.

I have decided to go with William Wynne's method and use two fuel pumps in

series (same as the Corvair) with one in operation at a time and a switch to

change pumps. You could power one pump as a backup with a separate power

source if you liked.



Cheers



Peter

Wonthaggi Australia

http://zodiac.cpc-world.com

--

psm(at)att.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 3:25 pm Post subject: Fuel Pump Requirements on a Low Wing 601

Hi Michael,



In your case, I would consider the additional cost of adding a 

mechanical fuel pump to be part of the necessary expense to use that engine.



If you have no header tank and one electric fuel pump, then your 

engine's continued power requires the fuel pump to work all the 

time.  It is only a little better with the header tank.  If the 

header tank is low and the fuel pump goes out you have a similar situation.



In my book, a low wing tank requires both a mechanical and electric 

fuel pump.  That is the only way to avoid an engine failure related 

to a single fuel system problem - loss of the pump.



Paul

XL getting close

do not archive

At 01:58 PM 2/9/2009, you wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  I'm building an HD.  I still have to option to put a header tank in 

it but I'm not really fond of having fuel above my lap. I'm looking 

at puting a continental in there.  Most o-200's that I've found 

don't have a mechical fuel pump, I'm told that one can be added but 

it seems costly.

planes_by_ken(at)bellsout
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 3:53 pm Post subject: Fuel Pump Requirements on a Low Wing 601

That fuel pump drive gear is about $850.00    You will probably have to 

have the case machined.  I am installing a dual electrical system with 

an 8 amp secondary alternator.  I will install 2 DIFFERENT types of 

electic pumps.  I will use one to start and the other to fly.  On the 

next flight I will switch the pump roles.  2 DIFFERENT pumps to prevent 

both pumps failing at the same time in service.

Ken Lilja



MHerder wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 I'm building an HD.  I still have to option to put a header tank in it but I'm not really fond of having fuel above my lap. I'm looking at puting a continental in there.  Most o-200's that I've found don't have a mechical fuel pump, I'm told that one can be added but it seems costly.



 Would I require a fuel pump if I used a header tank?  I want redundancy.  So the question is, is there enough head pressure to feed a continental 200 with only the 1-1 1/2' of differential that there is between the bottom of  a header tank and the carb?



 I'll have an electric fuel pump too, but I want the engine to still run if I have to shut down the power for some reason.



 Anybody have similar thoughts or concerns?  Since most of the o-200s went into Cessna 150's, they just don;t seem to have fuel pumps too often.



 --------

 One Rivet at a Time!

leinad

Joined: 19 Sep 2006
Posts: 283
Location: Central Virginia

Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 4:41 pm Post subject: Re: Fuel Pump Requirements on a Low Wing 601

My fuel system also was based on William Wynne's design per his conversion manual from several years ago.  Back then he recommended the mechanical corvair pump and a backup electric, but these were in parallel.  Two check valves were used to prevent the fuel from back flowing through the other pump.  Are the 2 electrics really suppose to be in series??

Dan



 	  vk3eka(at)bigpond.net.au wrote: 	
		  I am building a 601XL with an O-200 on the front and looked at the HD header

tank idea for the same reason.

I have decided to go with William Wynne's method and use two fuel pumps in

series (same as the Corvair) with one in operation at a time and a switch to

change pumps. You could power one pump as a backup with a separate power

source if you liked.



Cheers



Peter

Wonthaggi Australia

http://zodiac.cpc-world.com

--

_________________
Scratch building XL with Corvair Engine

Larry Webber

Joined: 05 Jun 2008
Posts: 63
Location: West Kingston Rhode Island

Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 4:44 pm Post subject: Fuel Pump Requirements on a Low Wing 601

Peter  all my prayers for your fellow aussies in victoria 



 who are coping with  that awful  fire  hope its not near you



 Larry Webber corvair chugger rhode island





[quote] From: vk3eka(at)bigpond.net.au

 To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: Fuel Pump Requirements on a Low Wing 601

 Date: Tue C 10 Feb 2009 09:33:33 +1100

 

 --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Peter W Johnson" <vk3eka(at)bigpond.net.au>

 

 I am building a 601XL with an O-200 on the front and looked at the HD header

 tank idea for the same reason.

 I have decided to go with William Wynne's method and use two fuel pumps in

 series (same as the Corvair) with one in operation at a time and a switch to

 change pumps. You could power one pump as a backup with a separate power

 source if you liked.

 

 Cheers

 

 Peter

 Wonthaggi Australia

 http://zodiac.cpc-world.com

 

 

 --

_________________
how do you eat an elephant ? one bite at a time

ashleyw(at)gvtc.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 5:50 pm Post subject: Fuel Pump Requirements on a Low Wing 601

I have an O-200  in my XL.  I chose the two electric fuel pump option.  I 

also added a second 8 ha battery  to keep the pumps working if I lost the 

alt and main battery. (Pretty remote option as the main battery will run a 

pump and my Dynon for several hours.)



The fuel pumps are the one supplied with the kit from Zenith.  They put out 

about 2.5 psi static and with the engine wide open, the fuel pressure drops 

to about 0.4 psi.  The engine runs fine with this pressure.  These pumps do 

not have a restriction to flow if the pump is not working.  I have the pumps 

in series and either pump will supply the engine without the other 

operating.



I run both pumps for takeoff and landing and turn one off when away from the 

ground.  With both pumps operating, the fuel pressure is about 4.5 psi. 

With both pumps OFF, it gets real quite real quick.



I also looked at the mechanical pump option as I was overhauling the engine. 

Best I could figure was about $1200 for the gear and mechanical pump.  The 

electric pump was about $40 and $15 for the battery.



Hope this helps.



Floyd Wilkes

601XL O-200 Phase I complete and having a ball!



---

vk3eka(at)bigpond.net.au
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 6:27 pm Post subject: Fuel Pump Requirements on a Low Wing 601

Dan,



According to WW's 601 installation manual they are. If one fails the other

pumps through the failed one.



Cheers



Peter



--

vk3eka(at)bigpond.net.au
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 6:28 pm Post subject: Fuel Pump Requirements on a Low Wing 601

Larry,  

   

Thanks for that. I am 50kms away from the nearest fire so no problems at the moment. With 175 people dead so far these are by far the worst Australia has ever seen.  

   

Thanks  

   

Peter  

         

  

From: owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lawrence Webber

 Sent: Tuesday, 10 February 2009 11:30 AM

 To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: Fuel Pump Requirements on a Low Wing 601  

  

   

Peter  all my prayers for your fellow aussies in victoria 

 

 who are coping with  that awful  fire  hope its not near you    

Larry Webber corvair chugger rhode island  

  



 

 

 

 > From: vk3eka(at)bigpond.net.au

 > To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com

 > Subject: RE: Fuel Pump Requirements on a Low Wing 601

 > Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2009 09:33:33 +1100

 > 

 > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Peter W Johnson" <vk3eka(at)bigpond.net.au>

 > 

 > I am building a 601XL with an O-200 on the front and looked at the HD header

 > tank idea for the same reason.

 > I have decided to go with William Wynne's method and use two fuel pumps in

 > series (same as the Corvair) with one in operation at a time and a switch to

 > change pumps. You could power one pump as a backup with a separate power

 > source if you liked.

 > 

 > Cheers

 > 

 > Peter

 > Wonthaggi Australia

 > http://zodiac.cpc-world.com

 > 

 > 

 > --

hills(at)sunflower.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 7:04 pm Post subject: Fuel Pump Requirements on a Low Wing 601

I have a HDS with a header tank, and I can tell you for a fact that when the

tank gets below 1/2 full, there is not enough fuel pressure to operate an

low pressure (0.5 psi) posa carb without a fuel pump, and that's in level

flight.



I understand why you might not want a header tank, on my plane, I had the

header tank leak onto the floor of the plane, that was scary, so I suggest

to everyone don't carpet your floor if you do have one, so the fuel will

just leak out of the plane and not get soaked up by the carpet.



Also, your insurance company might require a header tank, so better to check

with them as well.



Roger

--

MHerder

Joined: 11 Feb 2008
Posts: 143
Location: Fort Worth TX

Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 9:06 pm Post subject: Re: Fuel Pump Requirements on a Low Wing 601

two folks on this threa now have mentioned a "gear" and the cost range has been 850 to 1200.  The only mechanical fuel pump that I can find is one that rides on the camshaft.  For the o=200 that was originally gravity fed in a o 200 my calculations would include, machining the case to accept thefuel pump, possibly getting a new camshaft (one with the proper lobe) that the fuel pump rides on and possibly a new carb that accepts the increased fuel pressure.  This makes the "deal" that I was looking at on the engine not so appealing.  I sincerely appreciate everyones input.  I think everyone has brought to the table some intersting points.  Each comment has very helpful, dual electric, mech and electric, back up battery with dual electric pump all valid options...  But is there another geared pump otion that im not aware of?  Something that installs to the back accessory case or where the vacuum pump would install?

_________________
Zodiac 601 HD
Jabiru 3300
Wood Sensinich 64x47
Finally Flying

planes_by_ken(at)bellsout
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 6:30 am Post subject: Fuel Pump Requirements on a Low Wing 601

MHerder wrote:

For the O-200 the cam is the same but the vacuum pump gear assembly that 

goes on the cam has a lobe to move an arm on an AC type fuel pump.  The 

cam that has the fuel pump lobe is for an older engine model.

Ken Lilja

Zenith-List message posted by: "MHerder" <michaelherder(at)beckgroup.com>

 	  Quote: 	
		   two folks on this threa now have mentioned a "gear" and the cost range has been 850 to 1200.  The only mechanical fuel pump that I can find is one that rides on the camshaft.  For the o 0 that was originally gravity fed in a o 200 my calculations would include, machining the case to accept thefuel pump, possibly getting a new camshaft (one with the proper lobe) that the fuel pump rides on and possibly a new carb that accepts the increased fuel pressure.  This makes the "deal" that I was looking at on the engine not so appealing.  I sincerely appreciate everyones input.  I think everyone has brought to the table some intersting points.  Each comment has very helpful, dual electric, mech and electric, back up battery with dual electric pump all valid options...  But is there another geared pump otion that im not aware of?  Something that installs to the back accessory case or where the vacuum pump would install?

MHerder

Joined: 11 Feb 2008
Posts: 143
Location: Fort Worth TX

Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 9:23 am Post subject: Re: Fuel Pump Requirements on a Low Wing 601

Ken



Do you know of a continental part number or aftermarket part number for a gear with this lobe?  Id sure like to see what one looks like.



Anyone know of anyone who can do that sort of machining it should be just drillig  a hole  in the case and putting two threaded studs in it?



Does the carb need to be modified?  Different needles or similar?



Thanks again!

_________________
Zodiac 601 HD
Jabiru 3300
Wood Sensinich 64x47
Finally Flying

s.clive.richards(at)homec
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 15, 2009 10:34 am Post subject: Fuel Pump Requirements on a Low Wing 601

Hi  Ray 601Hd has a continental 0-200 with a mechanical fuel pump with a 

Facet  40106 electric pump in parallel fed from the header tank which is 

topped up from the wing tanks with a facet 40105 supplied with kit. I would 

say that no way would you have sufficient head from header tank on climb out 

at full power.

  Our original inspector would not accept wing tanks only so we kept the 

header tank and had a nasty leak due to a split by outlet valve so we wish 

we  had only wing tanks at that moment.

                        If building again I would put a facet 40106 in each 

wing route see archives and a facet 40106 forward of the gascalator as a 

emergency backup & for take off.

                         If I did not have the parallel mechanical pump I 

would supply this pump from a second back up battery see archives (probably 

on Larry McFarlands web site )



Also note if you have the head tank you will need to fit the battery in the 

extreme rear of the fuselage for Weight & Balance continental is very heavy 

even with light weight  starter & PMG  If your ambient temperature is below 

say 15 C you will need 2 AWG cable to starter due to volts drop. Ray 

insisted  4 AWG would do but in winter I had to install a parallel cable.

Clive Richards

  Rays 601 HD G CBDG  280Hrs.

---

MHerder

Joined: 11 Feb 2008
Posts: 143
Location: Fort Worth TX

Posted: Sun Feb 15, 2009 7:02 pm Post subject: Re: Fuel Pump Requirements on a Low Wing 601

Sabrina or Others,



Could you elaborate on the buzz aero mechanical pump.  I saw this in aircraft spruce but didn't know exactly how this works.  How much fuel can this unit supply with one "pump".  I'm guessing that this is some sort of springloaded mechanical fuel pump that you use to pump fuel...  Perhaps this mechanical pumpis a distant cousin to a primer??



Boy they sure are proud of that buzz aero pump at almost a grand!

_________________
Zodiac 601 HD
Jabiru 3300
Wood Sensinich 64x47
Finally Flying

craig(at)craigandjean.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 16, 2009 12:14 am Post subject: Fuel Pump Requirements on a Low Wing 601

" BUZZ PUMP	07-00654	$1298.00"



$1300? Did you pay list?



-- Craig	

--

psm(at)ATT.NET
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 16, 2009 7:07 am Post subject: Fuel Pump Requirements on a Low Wing 601

Is that some kind of carburetor for an O-200?



Paul

do not archive



P. S. standard factory price (NOT cost) is around 25% of list 

price.  That allows 100% markups for both the retailer and 

distributor. Factory cost is what it costs the factory to produce the part.

At 06:51 AM 2/16/2009, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  What do you guys think the factory cost, not dealer cost, on a 2009 

Harley Davidson 883 is?

s.clive.richards(at)homec
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 16, 2009 12:34 pm Post subject: Fuel Pump Requirements on a Low Wing 601

Sabrina

                  I presume you are correct & the pressures would add & the 

output pressure is not that above atmosphere (I am affraid donot know how 

thesepumps work) so I would have to rethink if we were to change our system. 

not likley as it is not so easy to get mods approved in UK. I also had been 

given wrong minimum pressure of 4 psi  at the time we were building & it had 

been reported on the list at that time that 40105 pumps were insufficient at 

full power, so we went with the 40106 as it is 4 to 5.5 PSI The engine 

manual we have says there is a different needle valve assembley for gravity 

systems but give no part numbers we then found we had to change the float 

material & needle valve due to an old AD & found only one part number with 6 

psi max.

In our current system the pressure is that produced by the head of the 

header tank on the 40106 suction or that of the engine pump in parallel we 

only checked that each pump output would provide above 125% required max 

flow I dont know our actual inlet pressure as we donot have a gauge

Clive

---

ashontz

Joined: 27 Dec 2006
Posts: 723

Posted: Wed Feb 18, 2009 12:04 pm Post subject: Re: Fuel Pump Requirements on a Low Wing 601

Just an off suggestion that someone may be able to make use of, but, OMC (Evinrude, Johnson) outboard engines use a vacumm operated pump, essentialy it's mechanical. A new one can be had for around $90 or less and merely operate off of a reciprocating vacuum. The vacuum line hooks directly to the crankcase in an outboard engine installation and the varying pressure of the back of the cylinders going up and down cause the diaphram in the pump to move and pump fuel as long as the engine is turning. These things are extremely reliable, I'm just wondering where on a 4 cycle engine this could be hooked up, there may actually be enough suction/pressure with it hooked up directly to the crankcase as well. Just a suggestion I figured I'd throw out there. I'm going to experiment with it myself. Never had one fail on me, and I haven't owned or bought an outboard that wasn't more than 20 years old, and operated them for years without the pumps giving me problems, so who knows how old the pumps are, could have been original, still with no problems. And the engines I've been running are in the 140hp range, which are quite thirsty, so the pumps are easily up to the task.

n801bh(at)netzero.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Feb 18, 2009 1:41 pm Post subject: Fuel Pump Requirements on a Low Wing 601

They will not work on 4 stroke engines... They need the pressure pulses that 2 strokes have in their crackcases... 

do not archive

Ben Haas

N801BH

www.haaspowerair.com



-- "ashontz" <ashontz(at)nbme.org> wrote:

--> Zenith-List message posted by: "ashontz" <ashontz(at)nbme.org>



Just an off suggestion that someone may be able to make use of, but, OMC (Evinrude, Johnson) outboard engines use a vacumm operated pump, essentialy it's mechanical. A new one can be had for around $90 or less and merely operate off of a reciprocating vacuum. The vacuum line hooks directly to the crankcase in an outboard engine installation and the varying pressure of the back of the cylinders going up and down cause the diaphram in the pump to move and pump fuel as long as the engine is turning. These things are extremely reliable, I'm just wondering where on a 4 cycle engine this could be hooked up, there may actually be enough suction/pressure with it hooked up directly to the crankcase as well. Just a suggestion I figured I'd throw out there. I'm going to experiment with it myself. Never had one fail on me, and I haven't owned or bought an outboard that wasn't more than 20 years old, and operated them for years without the pumps giving me problems, so who knows how old t!

he pumps are, could have been original, still with no problems. And the engines I've been running are in the 140hp range, which are quite thirsty, so the pumps are easily up to the task.



--------

Andy Shontz



do not archive



CH601XL - Corvair

www.mykitlog.com/ashontz





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