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Arty Trost
Joined: 25 May 2006
Posts: 206
Location: Sandy, Oregon
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 Posted: Wed Mar 04, 2009 7:54 am Post subject: Stop Whining and Help Fight Ethanol-blended Gas |
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Hi folks,
There's been a lot of discussion about the terrible attributes of using E-10 in our engines. There's a fellow from Oregon who's doing something about it. Dean Billings formed e0pc - the Ethanol-free Premium Coalition.It's a greass roots national association of folks who are trying to get state legislatures to require ethanol-free premium gas. I'm putting the e0pc.com decal on my Drifter and will be carrying one-page flyers on my cross country flight, putting them up at every FBO I stop at.
Here's some more information from him. I'd like to urge you to contact Dean and see if you can help out. Let's do something about it - in addition to writing about it!
Arty
| Quote: | From Dean Billings:
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Ethanol Free Premium Coalition www.e0pc.com
Prohibit Ethanol Blending In All Premium Unleaded Gasoline
The unintended consequences of The Energy Independence and Security Act of 2007 (EISA 2007) is spreading ethanol into all of the auto gasoline in the country. Unleaded auto gasoline, referred to as "mogas" in aviation circles, is an FAA recognized aviation fuel because of the STC process, but it must not contain ethanol.
Please help us insure the continued availability of ethanol free mogas for aviation use by joining the Ethanol Free Premium Coalition and supporting state laws prohibiting the blending of ethanol in premium unleaded gasoline. This fuel can be used in 100% of the Light Sport Aircraft and all mogas STC aircraft.
We are a loose knit group of volunteers who are urging our state legislators to pass a bill that will insure that ethanol free fuel is available for all of the users that need it, including aircraft, watercraft, antique and classic cars, small engines, etc.
Every mandatory E10 state has exemptions to their blending law, because there are a number of piston engine applications that should not, and some that cannot, use ethanol blended gasoline. Unfortunately the exemptions are not uniform. They vary from only one exemption in Washington, aircraft, to a universal exemption of premium unleaded in Missouri. All states exempt aircraft usage, but most states like Oregon and Washington make it almost impossible to get unblended gasoline. Oregon is the only state that allows for unblended regular and premium gasoline for the exemptions, and then makes it almost impossible to get any unblended gasoline. All other mandatory ethanol states just allow clear premium unleaded gasoline for the exempted classes.
The following piston engine applications should not use ethanol blended gasoline:
. Any 2 cycle engine used in tools, watercraft, snowmobiles, etc., or small 4 cycle engines.
. Any engines used in an emergency stationary engine application like a generator, especially in a humid climate.
. All watercraft. Ethanol blended gasoline should never be used in a marine environment.
. Antique and classic cars and classic motorcycles.
. All aircraft.
All of these users must be able to get ethanol free (E0) gasoline. If you live in a state without a mandatory ethanol blending law, you have no exemptions, ethanol will eventually be blended into all of your unleaded gasoline and there is no requirement in EISA 2007 to label gas pumps with ethanol content.
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lucien
Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 721
Location: santa fe, NM
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| Posted: Wed Mar 04, 2009 8:58 am Post subject: Re: Stop Whining and Help Fight Ethanol-blended Gas |
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| Arty Trost wrote: | Hi folks,
There's been a lot of discussion about the terrible attributes of using E-10 in our engines. There's a fellow from Oregon who's doing something about it. Dean Billings formed e0pc - the Ethanol-free Premium Coalition.It's a greass roots national association of folks who are trying to get state legislatures to require ethanol-free premium gas. I'm putting the e0pc.com decal on my Drifter and will be carrying one-page flyers on my cross country flight, putting them up at every FBO I stop at.
Here's some more information from him. I'd like to urge you to contact Dean and see if you can help out. Let's do something about it - in addition to writing about it!
Arty
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Just for what it's worth,
Remember that the oil lobbies control the laws on ethanol now, not us. So beware that you'll need a VERY large stick to try to beat E10 out of the system legally.
A group of trikers here in new mexico have been trying for about a year to get a bill passed in our state legislature requiring ethanol-free unleaded to be available (in some form) for aviation use.
The oil lobby has shot it down every single time to the point it doesn't even get out onto the floor. This is despite support for our legislators, virtually all the airport managers and everyone else involved in aviation here.
They're going to try again next year, but I think the writing is on the wall as to who has the gold in this situation.
So my advice, fight the good fight, but don't put all your eggs in that basket. Government by the people is no longer applicable to E10.
We rotax drivers may be relieved of this problem somewhat in the near future anyway, as, according to Ronnie Smith, Rotax is shortly to approve the use of E10 in the 912 series and hopefully by extension the 2-strokes also. Hopefully when the SI or SB comes out it'll have guidlines for us to follow for the use of E10.
BTW, Ronnie also says Rotax is extending the TBO of the 912 series to 2000 hours, which will lower the long term cost by a fair bit as well.
LS
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LS
Titan II SS |
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John Hauck
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)
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| Posted: Wed Mar 04, 2009 9:21 am Post subject: Stop Whining and Help Fight Ethanol-blended Gas |
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> BTW, Ronnie also says Rotax is extending the TBO of the 912 series to
2000 hours, which will lower the long term cost by a fair bit as well.
Lucien:
This extention is very good. My first 912UL in 1994, had a 600 hour TBO.
Keep in mind, the TBO is recommended, not mandatory, for experimental
homebuilts. That goes for two strokes also.
I have always had the philosophy that the 912 engines would go at least 3000
hours with no significant problems. May have to pull the heads and grind
the valves. Other than that, accessories such as carbs and carb parts,
spark plug sockets, etc., will wear out and require replacement.
If my 912ULS is running good, putting out the same power it was when it was
new, ain't no way I would ship it to a Rotax Service Center to have it torn
down and rebuilt when it accumulates 2,000 hours.
john h
mkIII
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John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama |
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lucien
Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 721
Location: santa fe, NM
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| Posted: Wed Mar 04, 2009 12:12 pm Post subject: Re: Stop Whining and Help Fight Ethanol-blended Gas |
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| John Hauck wrote: |
Lucien:
This extention is very good. My first 912UL in 1994, had a 600 hour TBO.
Keep in mind, the TBO is recommended, not mandatory, for experimental
homebuilts. That goes for two strokes also.
I have always had the philosophy that the 912 engines would go at least 3000
hours with no significant problems. May have to pull the heads and grind
the valves. Other than that, accessories such as carbs and carb parts,
spark plug sockets, etc., will wear out and require replacement.
If my 912ULS is running good, putting out the same power it was when it was
new, ain't no way I would ship it to a Rotax Service Center to have it torn
down and rebuilt when it accumulates 2,000 hours.
john h
mkIII |
Well I guess even for us experimental 912 drivers we can go on out to 2000 hours without wondering anyway  .
The flight schools will hopefully realize the increased value tho, since I think the commercial operations have to overhaul at TBO?
Unless I start flying more I dont think I'll ever wear mine out as long as it stays together (fingers crossed). It'll rot away a fair bit before I could put 2000 hours on it.
so far my 912uls has been a good engine. It's got just over 300 hours on it now so it's just now gettin' broke in.
I've never owned an engine that leaked no fluids whatsoever like this one.....
LS
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LS
Titan II SS |
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aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Wed Mar 04, 2009 5:23 pm Post subject: Stop Whining and Help Fight Ethanol-blended Gas |
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Lucien, I went over the TBO question with the guys at the Light Sport Branch a few months ago. Whether you have to overhaul at TBO , for S-LSA anyway, depends upon how the aircraft manufacturer writes his maintenance manual. If the manual says service the engine per Rotax, then you are bound by the TBO as spec'd by Rotax. If they give their own maintenance schedule, then when to overhaul is up to the condition of the engine. If it passes whatever checks are specified, say oil pressure and compression, then you are free to keep on flying as long as the engine passes those checks.
Rick
On Wed, Mar 4, 2009 at 2:12 PM, lucien <lstavenhagen(at)hotmail.com (lstavenhagen(at)hotmail.com)> wrote:
[quote] --> Kolb-List message posted by: "lucien" <lstavenhagen(at)hotmail.com (lstavenhagen(at)hotmail.com)>
John Hauck wrote:
>
>
> Lucien:
>
> This extention is very good. My first 912UL in 1994, had a 600 hour TBO.
>
> Keep in mind, the TBO is recommended, not mandatory, for experimental
> homebuilts. That goes for two strokes also.
>
> I have always had the philosophy that the 912 engines would go at least 3000
> hours with no significant problems. May have to pull the heads and grind
> the valves. Other than that, accessories such as carbs and carb parts,
> spark plug sockets, etc., will wear out and require replacement.
>
> If my 912ULS is running good, putting out the same power it was when it was
> new, ain't no way I would ship it to a Rotax Service Center to have it torn
> down and rebuilt when it accumulates 2,000 hours.
>
> john h
> mkIII
Well I guess even for us experimental 912 drivers we can go on out to 2000 hours without wondering anyway .
The flight schools will hopefully realize the increased value tho, since I think the commercial operations have to overhaul at TBO?
Unless I start flying more I dont think I'll ever wear mine out as long as it stays together (fingers crossed). It'll rot away a fair bit before I could put 2000 hours on it.
so far my 912uls has been a good engine. It's got just over 300 hours on it now so it's just now gettin' broke in.
I've never owned an engine that leaked no fluids whatsoever like this one.....
LS
--------
LS
Titan II SS
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Dennis.Kirby(at)kirtland.
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| Posted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 3:09 pm Post subject: Stop Whining and Help Fight Ethanol-blended Gas |
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Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Thewanderingwench wrote: << Hi folks, There's been a lot of discussion about the terrible attributes of using E-10 in our engines… >>
Arty, and Fellow Kolbers –
I’ve already stopped whining. Here’s why:
Just this week, I received the following information from the chief Rotax mechanic at Lockwood Aviation: Rotax (the company) has concluded that E-10 gas has no ill effects on the 912-series engines. This finding comes after several years of collecting and analyzing field data on the 912 fleet. As long as your fuel tanks and fuel lines are compatible with E-10, the engine itself will do fine. He told me that they (Rotax) even did tests with up to 25 percent ethanol, with no problems to the 912.
Rotax currently specifies in their manuals that 5 percent is the max allowable ethanol content in gas for the 912. They will imminently be releasing an updated Service Bulletin announcing that 10 percent is okay. I’ll be watching for it.
I did not ask about E-10 in the two-stroke engines.
Arty – I’m not trying to dampen Dean Billings’ efforts or your enthusiasm to help the cause, but this new information seems relevant to this topic thread.
Dennis Kirby
Mark-3, 912ul, “Magic Bike”
Cedar Crest, NM
Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
[quote][b]
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John Hauck
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)
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| Posted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 3:33 pm Post subject: Stop Whining and Help Fight Ethanol-blended Gas |
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Dennis:
I have successfully been flying with 10 per cent alcohol since it started being added to gas at the local country store. Have had no problem, as far as I know. We have flown it at MV, 5200 MSL, Rock House, OR, 4,000 MSL, Gantt IAP, 450 MSL, and can not detect any difference in performance between the 10 %, straight gas, or 100LL.
john h
mkIII
[quote] Arty, and Fellow Kolbers –
Rotax currently specifies in their manuals that 5 percent is the max allowable ethanol content in gas for the 912. They will imminently be releasing an updated Service Bulletin announcing that 10 percent is okay.
Dennis Kirby
[b]
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John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama |
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Arty Trost
Joined: 25 May 2006
Posts: 206
Location: Sandy, Oregon
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| Posted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 7:39 pm Post subject: Stop Whining and Help Fight Ethanol-blended Gas |
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Dennis -
This is GREAT news for your four-stroke engines - how do we find out about the effect of E10 on two-cycles?
Arty
www.LessonsFromTheEdge.com
"Life's a daring adventure or nothing" Helen Keller
"I refuse to tip toe through life just to arrive safely at death."
--- On Thu, 3/5/09, Kirby, Dennis CTR USAF AFMC MDA/AL <Dennis.Kirby(at)kirtland.af.mil> wrote:
| Quote: | Arty, and Fellow Kolbers
–
I’ve already stopped
whining. Here’s why:
Just this week, I received the
following information from
the chief Rotax mechanic at Lockwood Aviation: Rotax (the
company) has
concluded that E-10 gas has no ill effects on the
912-series engines. This finding
comes after several years of collecting and analyzing field
data on the 912
fleet. As long as your fuel tanks and fuel lines are
compatible with E-10, the
engine itself will do fine. He told me that they
(Rotax) even did tests with
up to 25 percent ethanol, with no problems to the 912.
Rotax currently specifies in their
manuals that 5 percent
is the max allowable ethanol content in gas for the
912. They will imminently
be releasing an updated Service Bulletin announcing that 10
percent is okay. I’ll
be watching for it.
Â
I did not ask about E-10 in the
two-stroke engines.
Â
Arty – I’m not trying
to dampen Dean Billings’
efforts or your enthusiasm to help the cause, but this new
information seems relevant
to this topic thread.
Â
Dennis Kirby
Mark-3, 912ul, “Magic
Bike”
Cedar Crest, NM
Classification:
UNCLASSIFIED
|
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by0ung(at)brigham.net
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| Posted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 7:36 am Post subject: Stop Whining and Help Fight Ethanol-blended Gas |
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Rotax currently specifies in their manuals that 5 percent is the max allowable ethanol content in gas for the 912. They will imminently be releasing an updated Service Bulletin announcing that 10 percent is okay. I’ll be watching for it.
Dennis
Good work in your findings.
Boyd young
KOLBMKIII
Do not archive.
[quote][b]
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