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kevann(at)gotsky.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 3:40 pm Post subject: Flap position, Flight testing

Hi All,         

  

 Flight testing of 914 powered monowheel N211KA is  going well (29 hours).I have a flap position question for those who have been  there.

 The aircraft has an irritating left turn in it  when flown solo and slight left turn with two up. When trimmed out cruising  straight and level the ailerons are close to even with the wing tips and the  left flap is noticeably lower relative to it's aileron than the right side,  which is almost even with the aileron. I think if I can rig the left flap up  even with the aileron it will help cure the left turning problem and be less  drag. 

  

 I thought I might get a new flap hinge arm (FL16)  on the left and with the aircraft supported and flaps up in the desired  position I could drill new holes thru the lugs on the tourqe tube  so the  left flap retacted position matches the right.

  

 Will this work or is there a better  way?

  

 Thanks, Kevin... flying and  grinning...

  

  

   [quote][b]

craigb(at)onthenet.com.au
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 7:33 pm Post subject: Flap position, Flight testing

I  think you might run into assymetry issues between the tube and the pins with  one hinge arm longer

 than  the other. If you did the alignment of the plates and the two root end flap  hinges and all was good

 you  may have the pin in the flap out of position. if thats the case, you could get a  machine shop to make a

 new  pin that is eccentric, rather then the longer process of cutting the flap to  bits to move the pin a few mm. 

 The  other thing is if you correct the cruise issue, what will happen at full  flap, will it have a nasty habbit of pulling to the right, or rolling left  because of the extra lift on the right wing????  Just a  thought.

  

 The  other thing is maybe... you should look at both flaps, and the clearances,  perchance the left flap

 is  hitting inside the wing, thus holding it a few mm down compared to the right  wing. I had an issue

 with  that, i ended up removing about 20mm from the from of one flap and reglassing it  to get it to fully retract.

  

 craig  

 [quote]   --

fklein(at)orcasonline.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 8:07 pm Post subject: Flap position, Flight testing

On Mar 5, 2009, at 3:38 PM, Kevin Klinefelter wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  I have a flap position question for those who have been there. 	




Kevin,

...jus sittin here in my armchair, so I am not one of "those who have been there"...but I would suggest that, prior to cutting any metal or replacing any parts, you get your bird back in its cradle, level it up, and very carefully measure everything relevant, cross checking from several reference points, and attempt to determine any deviations from symmetry. Check again with your control surfaces in the position you observe for straight and level flight; measure again. Going thru this exercise could be revealing; when combined with your observed flight characteristics, I would think it would point you towards potential fixes and you could choose the one most easily accomplished.

Good luck,

Fred

A194



--  This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean.   [quote][b]

mikenjulie.parkin(at)btin
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 10:48 pm Post subject: Flap position, Flight testing

Kevin,  

   

Your symptoms seem to contradict your analysis, or maybe I am completely out to lunch.  If the left flap were lower, then the left wing would produce more lift  - manifesting itself in a right turn.  On my monowheel,  there is a slight tendency to roll left when flown solo.  With 2 up, the roll disappears.  You need to check the flap position using the profile jig that was originally used to set the flap position.  Is the wash out correct on both ailerons and flaps.  Does the aircraft drop a left wing at the stall?  

G-JULZ had a nasty wing drop at the stall which was cured by a slight adjustment of the ailerons.  The ailerons on my classic wings have a very slight difference in neutral between sat on the ground and loaded in flight.  Also, I guess you are using the slip ball to trim out in flight, is the slip ball horizontal set correctly,  I fitted a small trim tab to the rudder to make the aircraft ‘straighten up and fly right’ as the song goes.  Could it be a rudder trim problem?  

   

Regards,  

   

Mike  

       

From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of craig bastin

 Sent: 06 March 2009 03:41

 To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: Flap position, Flight testing  

  

  

     

I think you might run into assymetry issues between the tube and the pins with one hinge arm longer  

    

than the other. If you did the alignment of the plates and the two root end flap hinges and all was good  

    

you may have the pin in the flap out of position. if thats the case, you could get a machine shop to make a  

    

new pin that is eccentric, rather then the longer process of cutting the flap to bits to move the pin a few mm.   

    

The other thing is if you correct the cruise issue, what will happen at full flap, will it have a nasty habbit of pulling to the right, or rolling left because of the extra lift on the right wing????  Just a thought.  

    

   

    

The other thing is maybe... you should look at both flaps, and the clearances, perchance the left flap  

    

is hitting inside the wing, thus holding it a few mm down compared to the right wing. I had an issue  

    

with that, i ended up removing about 20mm from the from of one flap and reglassing it to get it to fully retract.  

    

   

    

craig    

  [quote]  

--

sandford(at)melbpc.org.au
Guest

Posted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 2:15 am Post subject: Flap position, Flight testing

Kevin



I agree with Mike. Left Flap down would give right bank, all other

things being equal.

Looks like a complete rigging check. Sorry to slow down your testing.



Regards



Lance Sandford in OZ

[quote]

 Kevin,



  



 Your symptoms seem to contradict your analysis, or maybe I am

 completely out to lunch.  If the left flap were lower, then the left

 wing would produce more lift  - manifesting itself in a right turn. 

 On my monowheel,  there is a slight tendency to roll left when flown

 solo.  With 2 up, the roll disappears.  You need to check the flap

 position using the profile jig that was originally used to set the

 flap position.  Is the wash out correct on both ailerons and flaps. 

 Does the aircraft drop a left wing at the stall?



 G-JULZ had a nasty wing drop at the stall which was cured by a slight

 adjustment of the ailerons.  The ailerons on my classic wings have a

 very slight difference in neutral between sat on the ground and loaded

 in flight.  Also, I guess you are using the slip ball to trim out in

 flight, is the slip ball horizontal set correctly,  I fitted a small

 trim tab to the rudder to make the aircraft â€˜straighten up and fly

 rightâ€™ as the song goes.  Could it be a rudder trim problem?



  



 Regards,



  



 Mike



  



 *From:* owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com

 [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *craig

 bastin

 *Sent:* 06 March 2009 03:41

 *To:* europa-list(at)matronics.com

 *Subject:* RE: Flap position, Flight testing



  



 I think you might run into assymetry issues between the tube and the

 pins with one hinge arm longer



 than the other. If you did the alignment of the plates and the

 two root end flap hinges and all was good



 you may have the pin in the flap out of position. if thats the case,

 you could get a machine shop to make a



 new pin that is eccentric, rather then the longer process of cutting

 the flap to bits to move the pin a few mm. 



 The other thing is if you correct the cruise issue, what will happen

 at full flap, will it have a nasty habbit of pulling to the right, or

 rolling left because of the extra lift on the right wing????  Just a

 thought.



  



 The other thing is maybe... you should look at both flaps, and the

 clearances, perchance the left flap



 is hitting inside the wing, thus holding it a few mm down compared to

 the right wing. I had an issue



 with that, i ended up removing about 20mm from the from of one flap

 and reglassing it to get it to fully retract.



  



 craig  



     --

acrojim7534(at)YAHOO.COM
Guest

Posted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 4:24 am Post subject: Flap position, Flight testing

Kevin

  

 I would think that given the left flap is lower than the right flap that the plane would be turning right. Given that the left flap will have more pressure on it than the right flap.

  

 I would suggest that on the next flight check the turn and bank ball. and see if its setting to the right. Try centering the ball with rudder and see if that helps.

  

 Jim Brown



--- On Thu, 3/5/09, Kevin Klinefelter <kevann(at)gotsky.com> wrote:



  	  Quote: 	
		  

From: Kevin Klinefelter <kevann(at)gotsky.com>

Subject: Flap position, Flight testing

To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Thursday, March 5, 2009, 11:38 PM



    Hi All,        

  

 Flight testing of 914 powered monowheel N211KA is going well (29 hours).I have a flap position question for those who have been there.

 The aircraft has an irritating left turn in it when flown solo and slight left turn with two up. When trimmed out cruising straight and level the ailerons are close to even with the wing tips and the left flap is noticeably lower relative to it's aileron than the right side, which is almost even with the aileron. I think if I can rig the left flap up even with the aileron it will help cure the left turning problem and be less drag. 

  

 I thought I might get a new flap hinge arm (FL16) on the left and with the aircraft supported and flaps up in the desired position I could drill new holes thru the lugs on the tourqe tube  so the left flap retacted position matches the right.

  

 Will this work or is there a better way?

  

 Thanks, Kevin... flying and grinning...

  

  

 	  Quote: 	
		  



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blank rel=nofollow>http://www.matronics.com/contribution



	


	


            [quote][b]

kevann(at)gotsky.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 5:06 am Post subject: Flap position, Flight testing

Jim, In cruise I have to hold a little left  rudder...

 Kevin

 [quote]   ---

Fergus Kyle

Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 291
Location: Burlington ON Canada

Posted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 9:09 am Post subject: Flap position, flight testing

Kevin'

	I won't be the first to suggest it, but wonder if it's so badly out

of sorts - when two-up it's only 'slightly' left-handed. This to me means

it's not very far away from trimmed. In that case, why not attach a short

bungee to the front of one side of the seat, and a jam-cleat to the stick

(up a few inches). Then when it's two- up, pull the bungee to the jam-cleat

and jam it. It is easily re-adjusted until comfy.

	When solo, release and pull harder and jam. Yes, it'll fly a touch

sideways but if not far from trimmed then it won't be an efficiency problem.

I flew a DC9 for several years and then found the starboard wing was 8

inches shorter than the port. It sat right in the middle of the fleet

consumption curves.....

Ferg

winmail.dat

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grahamsingleton(at)btinte
Guest

Posted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 9:37 am Post subject: Flap position, flight testing

Fergus Kyle wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   I flew a DC9 for several years and then found the starboard wing was 8

 inches shorter than the port. It sat right in the middle of the fleet

 consumption curves.....

 Ferg

   

Knowing the captain I'd say it was more likely pilot skill that made the 
	


difference and got it into the range 

Graham

wilwood(at)earthlink.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 11:36 am Post subject: Flap position, Flight testing

Kevin,



You are probably doing this but you need to isolate the problem as much as possible.  You say it has an "irritating left turn".  It seems you have decided it is primarily aileron/flap (roll) and not a yaw problem, right?  What do you have to do to get it "trimmed out cruising straight and level", aileron or rudder or both?   If both, which is most effective?  Since you have put 29 hrs on so far, have you lived with this for this time or is it an increasing problem?  Is the problem consistent with flaps up or down?  As mentioned in this thread, a slightly deployed left flap should make you turn right not left, so this wouldn't seem to be the problem or at least not the only problem.  Slight adjustments can be made at the flap hinge bolts connecting to the wing, but keep the inboard flap pivot bolt in close alignment with the hinge under the fuse.   Slightly more adjustment can be achieved by off setting hinge to wing and re-drilling for 1/4" bolt.  When on the ground can the ailerons and flaps be put in the correct alignment?  It's not likely to be the ailerons creating roll as you should be able to neutralize roll at the stick.  Unless you have a wing leveling servo that's interfering.  Does the plane stall level or not?  



This probably will include as Fred Klein says, taking it back in the shop and do all the trim set up and measurements again.  Is the angle of incidence equal?  Hopefully the wing washout is right as that would be hard to change.  Check measurement from leading edge wing tip to some point on centerline as far aft as possible.  Hope this helps.



Good luck finding the problem.

Bill McClellan

A164

acrojim7534(at)YAHOO.COM
Guest

Posted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 5:04 pm Post subject: Flap position, Flight testing

Kevin

  

 Your statment "in cruise I have to hold a little left rudder".. Is this to keep the plane from a slight turning to the right? Is the right wing low without rudder ?

  

 The next time you fly, do this for me. Once in normal cruse, take your feet off the rudder pedals. Use your stick to level the plane, then observe where the sticks position is. Is it to the left of center or is it to the righ of center, or does it remain centered ? In this position of wings level, where is the ball? Is it to the right, or to the left, or is it centered?

  

 The monowheel does have a tendenancy to turn left a little, when flown solo.

  

 Jim Brown



--- On Fri, 3/6/09, Kevin Klinefelter <kevann(at)gotsky.com> wrote:



 [quote]

From: Kevin Klinefelter <kevann(at)gotsky.com>

Subject: Re: Flap position, Flight testing

To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Friday, March 6, 2009, 1:04 PM



  Jim, In cruise I have to hold a little left rudder...

 Kevin

 [quote] ---

hurstkr(at)redzone.com.au
Guest

Posted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 8:42 pm Post subject: Flap position, flight testing

 	  Quote: 	
		   I flew a DC9 for several years and then found the starboard wing was 8

 inches shorter than the port.


	


So what did you hit with the starboard wing Ferg ???  Hangar door not open 

properly ???  Just joking mate.



Kingsley



do not archive.

houlihan(at)blueyonder.co
Guest

Posted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 1:19 am Post subject: Flap position, Flight testing

Jim Brown wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  

 The monowheel does have a tendenancy to turn left a little, when flown 

 solo.

  

Why would the monowheel behave differently to the Trigear in this respect ?

acrojim7534(at)YAHOO.COM
Guest

Posted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 4:11 am Post subject: Flap position, Flight testing

Tim

  

 I have no experience in the Tri Gear. I can't answer your question.

  

 Jim



--- On Sat, 3/7/09, Tim Houlihan <houlihan(at)blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:



  	  Quote: 	
		  

From: Tim Houlihan <houlihan(at)blueyonder.co.uk>

Subject: Re: Flap position, Flight testing

To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Saturday, March 7, 2009, 9:17 AM



 --> Europa-List message posted by: Tim Houlihan <houlihan(at)blueyonder.co.uk (houlihan(at)blueyonder.co.uk)>



Jim Brown wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 The monowheel does have a tendenancy to turn left a little, when flown solo.

  

 

Why would the monowheel behave differently to the Trigear in th?Europa-List"  --> http:========================
	




	


          [quote][b]

loboloda(at)execulink.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 6:28 am Post subject: Flap position, Flight testing

Jim/Tim et al,

My tri-gear has the same left turning tendency.

Similar left turn/ left wing heavy posts crop up on the other Matronics aircraft lists.

I tend to think that prop wash is part of the problem.



Dave A061  



On 7-Mar-09, at 7:08 AM, Jim Brown wrote:

[quote]Tim

  

 I have no experience in the Tri Gear. I can't answer your question.

  

 Jim



--- On Sat, 3/7/09, Tim Houlihan <houlihan(at)blueyonder.co.uk (houlihan(at)blueyonder.co.uk)> wrote:



  	  Quote: 	
		  

From: Tim Houlihan <houlihan(at)blueyonder.co.uk (houlihan(at)blueyonder.co.uk)>

Subject: Re: Flap position, Flight testing

To: europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com)

Date: Saturday, March 7, 2009, 9:17 AM



 --> Europa-List message posted by: Tim Houlihan <houlihan(at)blueyonder.co.uk (houlihan(at)blueyonder.co.uk)>



Jim Brown wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 The monowheel does have a tendenancy to turn left a little, when flown solo.

  

 

Why would the monowheel behave differently to the Trigear in th?Europa-List"  --> http:========================
	




[/url] 	
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  	  Quote: 	
		  

href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List

href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com

href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution



	
[b]

rampil

Joined: 04 May 2007
Posts: 870

Posted: Sun Mar 08, 2009 5:31 pm Post subject: Re: Flap position, Flight testing

Hi all,



If you see the flaps and ailerons are level in the wing when the stick is

neutral and the flaps are level too, then there is no need for more

precise control surface measurements.



You probably glassed in an asymmetry, but no big deal.  



I'd start with a 3 x 5"  0.030 or so sheet of aluminum glued with 

silastic to the rudder for a ground settable trim tab.  You might even

need one on an aileron too.  Remember trim tabs will only be

perfectly balanced at a single speed, so I would flight test the tabs

and adjust for middle cruise.



You pay a tiny price in trim drag, but it is much better than reseting

the incidence and sweep of the wings, then balancing their weight.



Best of luck,



Ira



PS:  I thought ahead to put in electric aileron trim, but after a couple

hundred hours, I wish I had thought of electric rudder trim too!

_________________
Ira N224XS

budyerly(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2009 1:11 pm Post subject: Flap position, Flight testing

<?xml:namespace prefix="v" /><?xml:namespace prefix="o" /><![endif]-->  Kevin,

 After flight testing a number of these aircraft the advice/concerns of all  who have answered are sound.

  

 My tips for in house use are pasted below:

 This presupposes that you have accomplished the Annex E properly, checked  the engine and systems for safety etc.

  

 Preflight Rules before you fly:

 Rule 1.  Check the incidence with a digital level at the root and the  tip.  Should be within .1 degree.  Some of the tips are off a  little.

  

 Rule 2.  If a mono, support the aircraft and retract gear and flaps,  if tri-gear, retract the flaps.  Sit behind the aircraft on centerline and  look at the trailing edge.  Move your head up and down until you can see  the shadow line of the lower surface.  Look left and  right.  The shadow line should be even on both sides.  The mean  aerodynamic chord is near the flap/aileron junction.  Your outriggers will  spoil your view, but at that point the left and right wing shadows should be  dead even.  This checks the wing is square and the incidence is  correct.  Some flaps have a little play and will droop under gravity, but  fly up when airborne.  Use a stick with very light pressure to  hold them in place. 

  

 Note:  Why use your eye, because the eye is a superb level and square  indicator, not suspect of measuring methods.

  

 Rule 3.  Check the tail surfaces are square to the wing and the rear  fuselage is not twisted.  Both stabs are exactly at the same  incidence.  Two degrees off on the stabs is like 1/8 aileron  deflection.

  

 Rule 4.  Check the engine offset is per the manual at right thrust 1  1/16 inch offset to the firewall.

  

 Rule 5.  Check flap hinge coves and wheel pants for square.   Remove if not aligned properly.

  

 From my experience, the left roll is due to pilot weight.  Higher  thrust engines and CS props will add P factor even at an alpha of 2-3  degrees.  Most planes need slight right rudder.  This is easily  trimmed by shortening the right rudder spring one or two links or putting in a  cable shortener as depicted in the manual on the one side.  (Trim tabs are  ugly when stuck on a beautiful airplane and emphasize that there is  a rigging error.)  So preserve your ego and let the spring do the work  for you.  Yes I designed a rudder trim, and no I won't tell you but you can  figure it out from above.

  

 Any roll with a drooped flap in flight needs to be compensated for, so  jumping ahead:

  

 Roll trimming during flight test:

  

 Any roll corrections need to be done with the ball perfectly  centered.  Most EFIS ball indications are not as good as a good old  fashioned ball and a distant cloud.

  

 Center the ball first.

 Move aileron to stop the roll and re-center the ball.  Note the  aileron deflection by checking stick free with deflection required.   Land.

  

 Note:  By this I mean hold the stick for level flight, then release  and note the movement of the stick.  Reapply the stick deflection and note  how much deflection stops the roll...Look outside too.  

  

 Provided the aircraft has even stabs, proper incidence and the flaps are  even, proceed to:

  

 Adjust the flap which is up too far with the set screw in the baggage bay  (Custom Flight Mod) or by adding a shim to the back of the baggage bay  and the flap tube through the hole in the side of the  aircraft with thin wedges to shim the flaps 1/32nd of an inch to  correct roll.  Right flap down rolls right.  Go fly.  When roll  is cured you may need to adjust the aileron to match.  But wait, most  likely, then it needs the flap to be trimmed again for less deflection due to  the aileron trimming, or because you made the airplane with very little  friction in your roll system, you may see both ailerons now evenly up or down as  appropriate.  Go fly again.  Test trim, then re-do stall  series.  

  

 If the wing tip is off, and/or an aileron tab is needed, re-contour the  aileron.  To do this, sand one inch back on the lower trailing edge of the  aileron which needs to fly up and add filler (Evercoat Rage works great) to make  a wedge that tapers from zero to 1/16 of an inch along the full span.   Think of it as a long wedge of nearly no weight.  Go fly.  Land and  sand, then go fly until it is trimmed.  Paint as required.  Makes  a virtually invisible aileron trim tab and the thickness is very difficult for  the untrained observer to catch.

  

 Enjoy making your plane perfect,  it is worth the effort.  I  never get a chance to do my own.

  

 Bud Yerly

 Custom Flight Creations

  

   

  

  

  

  

 [quote]   ---

hurstkr(at)redzone.com.au
Guest

Posted: Tue Mar 10, 2009 3:51 am Post subject: Flap position, Flight testing

Alan,

  

 Thank you for your write-up on flight testing  and trimming.

 Mostly understood but in one place you said  "Right flap down rolls right." . . . . did you mean to say this ??

  

 Cheers

 Kingsley in Oz.

   [quote][b]

budyerly(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Mar 10, 2009 5:53 am Post subject: Flap position, Flight testing

<?xml:namespace prefix="v" /><?xml:namespace prefix="o" /><![endif]-->  Many thanks,

 My brevity of my checklist is not always clear.

  

 I mean that to cure a tendency of the aircraft to roll to the right, you  correct with a droop of the right flap when trimming.

  

 Thanks for putting up with my hurried post.

  

 Bud Yerly

 Custom Flight Creations

 [quote]   ---

kevann(at)gotsky.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Mar 14, 2009 4:49 pm Post subject: Flap position, Flight testing

Hi Jim,

 I have  to hold just a little left rudder in  cruise to center the ball on my Dynon. Seems like I am skidding just a  bit.

 When I use the stick to level the plane I can do it  with one finger, just a pound or so to keep the left wing up cruising solo.  In this position of wings level the ball is  off to the left just enough to put the ball 1/4 on the line.

 When gear and flaps are down, the left turn is more pronounced. And when  stalled dirty the left wing always drops.

  

  

 Thanks to all for the responses. I have not tried  changing anything yet. I have just been enjoying this great little plane and  trying very hard to get better at landing her. I have been doing a lot of  landings! And also some high cruising, 17,000 feet over the snow covered Sierra,  just amazing to be there instead of in the garage...

  

 Kevin, 35+ hours on the hobbs

 A211, N211KA

 Mono XS

 Intercooled 914, Airmaster Prop

 [quote]   From:    Jim    Brown (acrojim7534(at)YAHOO.COM) 

   To: europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com) 

   Sent: Friday, March 06, 2009 6:02  PM

   Subject: Re: Flap position,    Flight testing

   



                             Kevin

          

         Your statment "in cruise I have to hold a little left rudder".. Is          this to keep the plane from a slight turning to the right? Is the right          wing low without rudder ?

          

         The next time you fly, do this for me. Once in normal cruse, take          your feet off the rudder pedals. Use your stick to level the plane, then          observe where the sticks position is. Is it to the left of center or is          it to the righ of center, or does it remain centered ? In this position          of wings level, where is the ball? Is it to the right, or to the left,          or is it centered?

          

         The monowheel does have a tendenancy to turn left a          little, when flown solo.

          

         Jim Brown



--- On Fri, 3/6/09, Kevin Klinefelter          <kevann(at)gotsky.com> wrote:



         [quote]

From:            Kevin Klinefelter <kevann(at)gotsky.com>

Subject: Re:            Flap position, Flight testing

To:            europa-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Friday, March 6, 2009, 1:04            PM



                      Jim, In cruise I have to hold a little            left rudder...

           Kevin

           [quote]             ---

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