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Zenith601-List Digest: 8 Msgs - 03/31/09

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flyboy3847(at)onecommail.
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 6:24 am Post subject: Zenith601-List Digest: 8 Msgs - 03/31/09

It has been my experience that you must plan carefully before you limit

access to anything on the airframe.  I didn't install the firewall until I

had the rudder and brake cylinders in place along with all brake lines.  As

for the panel, we made separate removable sub panels for the EIS, the flight

instruments as well as the radio and GPS.  You can then remove them to get

behind the panel.  I'm just about finished with a plans-built 601HD.



Remember, the upper glare shield that rivets to the top of the firewall is

structural.  Be careful if you're planning on skimping on rivets.



Flyboy3847(at)onecommail.com



--

jmaynard

Joined: 27 Feb 2008
Posts: 394
Location: Fairmont, MN (FRM)

Posted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 6:47 am Post subject: Zenith601-List Digest: 8 Msgs - 03/31/09

(Please trim your quotes, people. There's no reason to include the entire

digest in a reply.)



On Wed, Apr 01, 2009 at 10:24:22AM -0400, Leroy Wheeler wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Remember, the upper glare shield that rivets to the top of the firewall is

 structural.  Be careful if you're planning on skimping on rivets.


	


If you're referring to the metal cover that goes across the top of the panel

and down to the fuselage longerons, from the firewall back, that piece

(6C1-4 on my parts catalog drawing) is held on my XL by lots of screws. This

makes working on stuff in the panel a lot easier. Is the structural nature

of it an HD-specific thing?

-- 

Jay Maynard, K5ZC, PP-ASEL, AGI      http://www.conmicro.com

http://jmaynard.livejournal.com       http://www.tronguy.net

Fairmont, MN (KFRM)                        (Yes, that's me!)

AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC http://www.tronguy.net/N55ZC.shtml

_________________
Jay Maynard, K5ZC
AMD Zodiac XLi N55ZC

flyboy3847(at)onecommail.
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 02, 2009 7:02 am Post subject: Zenith601-List Digest: 8 Msgs - 03/31/09

I think the fuselage is the same for both models of the 601.  If the factory

put the screws in the kit I must assume it's right.  I also think that

rivets are stronger than screws.  The panel is structural.  It keeps the

upper longerons parallel.  The upper longerons are directly connected to the

motor mounts.



--

jfowler120(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 02, 2009 7:19 am Post subject: Zenith601-List Digest: 8 Msgs - 03/31/09

I agree.  Rivets are permanent, screws are  not.

  

 Karl Polifka

 [quote]   ---

leo.gates

Joined: 29 Nov 2008
Posts: 35

Posted: Thu Apr 02, 2009 7:33 am Post subject: Zenith601-List Digest: 8 Msgs - 03/31/09

601HD/HDS - In 2003 Chris approved my use of Rivnuts and #6 SS screws in 

place of rivets for the front panel on my HDS.  Basically the same at 

the front end as the XL.



-- 

Leo Gates

N601Z - CH601HDS TDO

Rotax 912UL



 



Leroy Wheeler wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 I think the fuselage is the same for both models of the 601.  If the factory

 put the screws in the kit I must assume it's right.  I also think that

 rivets are stronger than screws.  The panel is structural.  It keeps the

 upper longerons parallel.  The upper longerons are directly connected to the

 motor mounts.

Jeyoung65(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 02, 2009 7:38 am Post subject: Zenith601-List Digest: 8 Msgs - 03/31/09

Rivets are NOT STRONGER than screws unless you are talking  about sheet metal 

screws in tension then they MAY be. Rivets are permanent only  until you get 

the drive out. The problem with removing rivets is you enlarge the  holes each 

time and soon you will need the next size rivets- reducing the edge  

distance. 

Jerry of GA DO NOT ARCHIVE

 

 

 

In a message dated 4/2/2009 10:19:55 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,  

jfowler120(at)verizon.net writes:



I agree.  Rivets are permanent, screws are  not.

 

Karl Polifka



---

z601(at)anemicaardvark.co
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 02, 2009 8:21 am Post subject: Zenith601-List Digest: 8 Msgs - 03/31/09

On Thursday 02 April 2009 10:37, Jeyoung65(at)aol.com wrote: 

 	  Quote: 	
		   Rivets are NOT STRONGER than screws unless you are talking  about sheet 

 metal screws in tension then they MAY be. Rivets are permanent only  until 

 you get the drive out. The problem with removing rivets is you enlarge the  

 holes each time and soon you will need the next size rivets- reducing the 

 edge distance. 

 Jerry of GA DO NOT ARCHIVE 

 
	


I agree with Jerry in a general sense. But it depends on the screw and the rivet. Sheet metal screws are, generally, not stronger than rivets of the same size., 

 

My copies of AC 43-13 are burried at the moment, but I believe there are tables in one of the two books which show the size of machine screw that can replace a rivet in an aircraft. I've done this on certificated aircraft, and sold it to the FAA without a whimper. 

 

Assuming I remember correctly, Zenith states that it takes five of their rivets to replace three driven rivets of the same diameter. It should be possible to take this information, and determine the size, number, and type of machine screws that could replace the rivets to have the same or better strength. 

 

Note that this applies only to aircraft quality screws, which have known structural properties, not to hardware store screws. 

 

I plan to replace some of the rivets inside the cockpit of my 601XL with screws, so I can remove panels for maintenance.  

 

 

 

============================================= 

          

============================================= 

                Jim B Belcher 

    BS, MS Physics, Math, Computer Science 

                  A&P/IA 

     Retired aerospace technical manager 

=============================================  [quote][b]

jfowler120(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 02, 2009 11:13 am Post subject: Zenith601-List Digest: 8 Msgs - 03/31/09

Okay, since I have been so expertly corrected --  why not use nothing but sheet metal screws and screw the rivets.  Pun  intended.

  

 Karl Polifka

 [quote]   ---

flyboy3847(at)onecommail.
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 02, 2009 11:26 am Post subject: Zenith601-List Digest: 8 Msgs - 03/31/09

I still want to use rivets.  If you plan you don’t need to use them.  

   

    

         

  

From: owner-zenith601-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith601-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of KARL POLIFKA

 Sent: Thursday, April 02, 2009 3:13 PM

 To: zenith601-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: RE: Zenith601-List Digest: 8 Msgs - 03/31/09  

  

     

Okay, since I have been so expertly corrected -- why not use nothing but sheet metal screws and screw the rivets.  Pun intended.  

    

   

    

Karl Polifka  

  [quote]    

---

z601(at)anemicaardvark.co
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 02, 2009 11:33 am Post subject: Zenith601-List Digest: 8 Msgs - 03/31/09

On Thursday 02 April 2009 14:12, KARL POLIFKA wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Okay, since I have been so expertly corrected -- why not use nothing but

 sheet metal screws and screw the rivets.  Pun intended.


	


1) Because sheet metal screws aren't the ones with the same or greater 

strength. Machine screws do that. 



2) It's very possible that the machine screws (or sheet metal screws, for that 

matter) wind up weighing more than the rivet they would replace. That might 

not matter much on a few screws, but on a plane full, it matters a lot.



It seems to me that the BD-4 used mostly machine screws and bolts instead of 

rivets. But I could be mistaken about that; it's just what I remember.



I don't know that you were "expertly corrected;" we just found a place where 

I'd happened to walk down a path you hadn't. I had an instance - maybe ten 

years ago - where it wasn't practical to use rivets. I forget why now - I 

just remember it wasn't.



==============================================

Those who can, do. Those who can't, sue.

=================================================

               Jim B. Belcher

    BS, MS Physics, math, Computer Science

                  A&P/IA

           Instrument Rated Pilot

     General Radio Telephone Certificate

=================================================



-- 

=============================================

                Do not archive.

=============================================

                Jim B Belcher

    BS, MS Physics, Math, Computer Science

                  A&P/IA

     Retired aerospace technical manager

=============================================

Jeyoung65(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 02, 2009 11:55 am Post subject: Zenith601-List Digest: 8 Msgs - 03/31/09

Sheet metal screws will pull through the alum. sheets if over  torqued and 

will vibrate loose. Machine screws, sheet metal screws  and bolts cost more than 

rivets.  DO NOT ARCHIVE  Jerry of  GA



In a message dated 4/2/2009 2:34:18 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  

z601(at)anemicaardvark.com writes:






On Thursday 02 April 2009 14:12, KARL  POLIFKA wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Okay, since I have been so expertly corrected -- why  not use nothing but

 sheet metal screws and screw the rivets.  Pun  intended.

bryanmmartin

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1018

Posted: Thu Apr 02, 2009 12:12 pm Post subject: Zenith601-List Digest: 8 Msgs - 03/31/09

I wouldn't use sheet metal screws anywhere in an airplane (or any  

other vehicle for that matter) except maybe on some non-essential item  

that is in plain sight and easily inspectable. Sheet metal screws tend  

to loosen up whenever they are subjected to the slightest vibration.  

Machine screws are much more likely to stay tight in the long term and  

rivets even more so. Rivets also have the advantage of being lighter  

than a screw of equivalent strength.



On Apr 2, 2009, at 3:12 PM, KARL POLIFKA wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Okay, since I have been so expertly corrected -- why not use nothing  

 but sheet metal screws and screw the rivets.  Pun intended.



 Karl Polifka




	




-- 

Bryan Martin

N61BM, CH 601 XL,

RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.

do not archive.

_________________
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
do not archive.

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