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lurcottstudios(at)yahoo.c
Guest

Posted: Sun May 17, 2009 11:02 am Post subject: rudder trim tab

Greetings,

I have been reading the list here for a while, and want to take the opportunity to say thanks to all of you.  I have a Series V with a Lycoming O-235 which is a great source of fun and unending lessons for me. There is one issue that I have, and that is that I must always input right rudder. I expect that at higher power settings, but at cruise? Anyway, I was wondering since the aircraft is already covered and flying is there some add-on type tab that I could affix to the rudder so that I don't have to constantly push on that right side. Cruise requires about 3-4 pounds or so of pressure. If someone has a photo or drawing, I would appreciate that too, as I am very visual. Thanks for any input. 

Will Lurcott

Series V

Lyc O-235

Flagler Beach, FL



         [quote][b]

lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Sun May 17, 2009 6:43 pm Post subject: rudder trim tab

Will,



I have been told by what I consider to be reliable sources that the engine 

mounts designed for the Kitfox engines has no thrust offset - zero offset, 

horizontal or vertical so right rudder is essentially built into the design. 

I went through this for the first five years of flight on my Model IV and 

had difficulty even considering a trim tab simply because it would look like 

a bandage.  I finally did the deed and it made a world of difference, not 

only in cruise, but in the pattern as well.  I hated right traffic patterns 

because I had real problems coordinating the right rudder pedal with a right 

turn.  Everything just improved in bunches.



My airplane is gone, but the trim tab was about six inches top to bottom and 

extended aft about an inch and a half or so.  Overall it was triangular in 

shape with a trimmed base so it riveted to the trailing edge and the rib 

forward to prevent the trailing edge rivets from working as I adjusted it. 

My ribs were of the Speedster style with an airfoil on the horizontal so 

what I did there is drill through the rib and using a 4-40 blind nut from a 

hobby store on one side and a screw of trimmed length inserted through the 

tab.  If you don't have the ribs in the rudder, I suppose you could go 

through the fabric a bit oversizes and then use a tubular spacer of the 

right length to accommodate the space between the 3/8" rib and the fabric, 

though that might not be necessary that far back.  I couldn't find any clear 

photos, so made a drawing.   As I recall, I bent the edges of the triangular 

portion inward a little bit to create a firm contact with the fabric to 

prevent air getting under and possibly lifting the tab.



Lowell



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Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Mon May 18, 2009 2:22 am Post subject: rudder trim tab

Here is a shot of my present trim tab, soon to be modified with a  

servo from the model airplane world, and a controller. The tab looks  

larger than it actually is, and I may be shrinking it further. I  

staggered the rivets so that it would be more stable, and I attached  

it with aluminum rivets so I could "drill it off" when the time came  

to hinge it for the servo application. Also, I have since painted it,  

so it is a little less obtrusive than it appears.





Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, #2062, 654 hrs

Sensenich 62x46 Wood prop

Electroair direct-fire ignition system

Status: flying





On May 17, 2009, at 2:56 PM, william lurcott wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Greetings,

 I have been reading the list here for a while, and want to take the  

 opportunity to say thanks to all of you.  I have a Series V with a  

 Lycoming O-235 which is a great source of fun and unending lessons  

 for me. There is one issue that I have, and that is that I must  

 always input right rudder. I expect that at higher power settings,  

 but at cruise? Anyway, I was wondering since the aircraft is  

 already covered and flying is there some add-on type tab that I  

 could affix to the rudder so that I don't have to constantly push  

 on that right side. Cruise requires about 3-4 pounds or so of  

 pressure. If someone has a photo or drawing, I would appreciate  

 that too, as I am very visual. Thanks for any input.

 Will Lurcott

 Series V

 Lyc O-235

 Flagler Beach, FL



 www.matronics.com/contribution _- 

 ============================================================

100_2685.jpg

Description:

Filesize:

403.12 KB

Viewed:

13664 Time(s)

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

kerrjohna(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Mon May 18, 2009 9:00 am Post subject: rudder trim tab

Will, I did similar to Lowell with similar results.  I place it lower on the rudder at the point of maximum bend so that I could use the geometry of the rudder to provide rigidity.  One thing I have learned on the Hatz is that the rudder is neutral when aligned with the stabilizer offset, not with the centerline of the aircraft



John Kerr



---

KITFOXZ(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Mon May 18, 2009 2:53 pm Post subject: rudder trim tab

Hello Will,

  

 My Ship is not yet flying but I wanted to chime  in on this thread.  I have always believed that an airplane should be built  to fly straight and level first.  My model building days (and my  aeronautical engineer father)  taught me to pay particular attention  to true alignment and close to perfect airfoils in all aspects of  building.  A banana shaped fuselage is a curse one never will  overcome.  A warped wing will be more and more of a liability as the ship  picks up speed in it's death spiral to mother earth.

  

 With a straight and true  airframe accomplished first, the builder next tackles an engine  mount.  The engine's propeller will cause a torque turn in the  opposite direction of the prop rotation.  A shim in the engine mount is the  best way to fix the problem in my book.  I don't like the idea of having to  change more than a little pitch trim when the engine quits.  An airplane  should glide straight in my opinion.  If the engine quits, your hands are  already full and I don't want to have to be standing on some rudder too, trying  to overcome my trim tab.

  

 Actually, isn't a washer or two under the left  engine mount to firewall points a heck of a lot easier than fabricating a trim  tab?  It's a lot less ugly!  

  

 OK, I apologize, John, Lowell, Lynn, your trim  tabs are beautiful but, isn't a simple washer for a little right thrust a  solution to the point?

  

 If the airplane fly's straight and true  naturally and as you add power the right thrust becomes more and more effective  to counteract the very torque turn you are trying to kill in the first  place.  Isn't this a solution near to God and the birds?

  

 Dang propellers anyway!

  

 John

 John P. Marzluf

 Columbus, Ohio

 Outback (out back in the  garage)    

  

  

  In a message dated 5/17/2009 3:03:29 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  lurcottstudios(at)yahoo.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		                      Greetings,

I have been reading the list here for a          while, and want to take the opportunity to say thanks to all of          you.  I have a Series V with a Lycoming O-235 which is a great          source of fun and unending lessons for me. There is one issue that I          have, and that is that I must always input right rudder. I expect that          at higher power settings, but at cruise? Anyway, I was wondering since          the aircraft is already covered and flying is there some add-on type tab          that I could affix to the rudder so that I don't have to constantly push          on that right side. Cruise requires about 3-4 pounds or so of pressure.          If someone has a photo or drawing, I would appreciate that too, as I am          very visual. Thanks for any input. 

Will Lurcott

Series V

Lyc          O-235

Flagler Beach, FL



 	  Quote: 	
		  



====================================

 href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List">http://www.matron====================================

ms.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com

====================================

tp://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

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 A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See Yours in Just 2 Easy Steps!

  [quote][b]

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Mon May 18, 2009 4:58 pm Post subject: rudder trim tab

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't one reason to use the rudder trim  

to counteract, for instance, a crosswind while flying, thus removing  

the necessity to hold a little rudder to keep the ball centered? At  

least that's what I thought I was doing in building a cockpit- 

controlled trim tab.



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, #2062, 655.4 hrs

Sensenich 62x46 Wood prop

Electroair direct-fire ignition system

Status: flying





On May 18, 2009, at 6:51 PM, KITFOXZ(at)aol.com wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Hello Will,



 My Ship is not yet flying but I wanted to chime in on this thread.   

 I have always believed that an airplane should be built to fly  

 straight and level first.  My model building days (and my  

 aeronautical engineer father)  taught me to pay particular  

 attention to true alignment and close to perfect airfoils in all  

 aspects of building.  A banana shaped fuselage is a curse one never  

 will overcome.  A warped wing will be more and more of a liability  

 as the ship picks up speed in it's death spiral to mother earth.



 With a straight and true airframe accomplished first, the builder  

 next tackles an engine mount.  The engine's propeller will cause a  

 torque turn in the opposite direction of the prop rotation.  A shim  

 in the engine mount is the best way to fix the problem in my book.   

 I don't like the idea of having to change more than a little pitch  

 trim when the engine quits.  An airplane should glide straight in  

 my opinion.  If the engine quits, your hands are already full and I  

 don't want to have to be standing on some rudder too, trying to  

 overcome my trim tab.



 Actually, isn't a washer or two under the left engine mount to  

 firewall points a heck of a lot easier than fabricating a trim  

 tab?  It's a lot less ugly!



 OK, I apologize, John, Lowell, Lynn, your trim tabs are beautiful  

 but, isn't a simple washer for a little right thrust a solution to  

 the point?



 If the airplane fly's straight and true naturally and as you add  

 power the right thrust becomes more and more effective to  

 counteract the very torque turn you are trying to kill in the first  

 place.  Isn't this a solution near to God and the birds?



 Dang propellers anyway!



 John

 John P. Marzluf

 Columbus, Ohio

 Outback (out back in the garage)

 In a message dated 5/17/2009 3:03:29 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  

 lurcottstudios(at)yahoo.com writes:

 Greetings,

 I have been reading the list here for a while, and want to take the  

 opportunity to say thanks to all of you.  I have a Series V with a  

 Lycoming O-235 which is a great source of fun and unending lessons  

 for me. There is one issue that I have, and that is that I must  

 always input right rudder. I expect that at higher power settings,  

 but at cruise? Anyway, I was wondering since the aircraft is  

 already covered and flying is there some add-on type tab that I  

 could affix to the rudder so that I don't have to constantly push  

 on that right side. Cruise requires about 3-4 pounds or so of  

 pressure. If someone has a photo or drawing, I would appreciate  

 that too, as I am very visual. Thanks for any input.

 Will Lurcott

 Series V

 Lyc O-235

 Flagler Beach, FL



 ==================================== href="http://www.matronics.com/ 

 Navigator?Kitfox-List">http:// 

 www.matron====================================  

 ms.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com  

 ==================================== tp://www.matronics.com/ 

 contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution  

 ====================================



 A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See Yours in Just 2 Easy Steps!

 www.matronics.com/contribution _- 

 ============================================================

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Mon May 18, 2009 4:58 pm Post subject: rudder trim tab

John,



I agree with you entirely.  That is why I resisted the trim tab for so long. 

The washer idea didn't occur to me as I was a rank novice in the building 

and early flying stages.  The trim tab just finally made sense and I did it 

and never regretted it.  Since then, however, I have been thinking quite a 

bit about the whole issue.  I am thinking of building my own engine mount 

with the offsets built into it, and I have been tinkering with a cockpit 

adustable rudder trim as I doubt a washer or two or an offset will 

completely negate any yaw tendency at all power settings.



I guess this is as good a time as any to present my rudder trim system.  I 

have a servo in the rudder that will warp the two bottom ribs giving a 

different cambered surface on one side or the other.  The ribs are tied 

together so I will get an overcamber and undercamber on a desired side, or a 

symmetric surface on both sides controllable with a switch in the cockpit. 

Of course it has yet to fly, but it is something I have been thinking about 

long before the opportunity to build again came up.



Lowell

---

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JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Mon May 18, 2009 5:41 pm Post subject: Re: rudder trim tab

There is nothing wrong with trim tabs.  All sorts of much more advanced and high performance aircraft use trim tabs.   Johns washer idea is a good one, but I doubt it will be enough, and even when you get close to correct, you will still probably get yaw changes with power, which is exactly why many manufactured aircraft have rudder trim.  Even modern jet airliners have rudder trim... The theory of building a perfectly straight airplane is good and something to strive for, but the reality is that you will still probably need a trim tab in the end.  An electric adjustable rudder tab is even better...



Mike

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

KITFOXZ(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Mon May 18, 2009 6:38 pm Post subject: rudder trim tab

Lynn, Lowell and Mike, others lurking,

  

 I didn't mean to condemn trim tabs and especially cockpit controlled trim  tabs.  The point I was hoping to make is that I feel the emphasis should be  on building a good airframe that is straight and true.  I don't want to  have a bird that is all bent up and those imperfections compensated for  with hairy items hanging off of every control surface.  

  

 These are harsh sounding words I know.  I am just trying to make the  point with exaggerations.  Engine torque is proportional to power setting  and so is the resultant yaw.  I want to cancel it immediately at it's  source with engine thrust line offset.  Washers, shims, another engine  mount perhaps, are the cleaner ways to make an airplane fly straight.   What I want to accomplish is a glide that is straight and true first and then do  what has to be done to make the engine pull it in as straight of a path as can  be done even with the imperfections of that rotating, torque inducing, P  factor producing, wind mill out in front.

  

 Of course a cockpit controlled trim tab is used for cross wind trim and  elevator trim is used for load CG variations.  But, to permanently  bend a control surface to make up for a faulty thrust line is wrong I  feel.  If your car has a front end alignment problem, do you alter the rear  axle alignment to make it go down the road straight?  --Albeit in a crab  angle? 

  

 I love this forum because there are so many points of view that can get  aired.  Dead horses are beaten.  Feelings are even stepped on but,  when it all is tallied up some do and don't are discovered.  Some best  practices are established and airplanes end up flying. 

  

 Got to turn in for the night.

  

 John

  

 John P. Marzluf

 Columbus, Ohio

 Outback (out back in the garage) 

  

  In a message dated 5/18/2009 9:44:39 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  orcabonita(at)hotmail.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  -->    Kitfox-List message posted by: "JetPilot"    <orcabonita(at)hotmail.com>



There is nothing wrong with trim    tabs.  All sorts of much more advanced and high performance aircraft use    trim tabs.   Johns washer idea is a good one, but I doubt it will be    enough, and even when you get close to correct, you will still probably get    yaw changes with power, which is exactly why many manufactured aircraft have    rudder trim.  Even modern jet airliners have rudder trim... The theory of    building a perfectly straight airplane is good and something to strive for,    but the reality is that you will still probably need a trim tab in the    end.  An electric adjustable rudder tab is even    better...



Mike



--------

&quot;NO FEAR&quot; -     If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!



Kolb    MK-III Xtra, 912-S





Read this topic online    here:



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  [quote][b]

propellerdesign(at)tele2.
Guest

Posted: Mon May 18, 2009 10:29 pm Post subject: rudder trim tab

Lynn,



you do not compensate for crosswind with the trim tab, you move along with 

the mass of air (steady air) at the same speed as it blows, if you don't go 

directly in to the wind or with the wind, you have to compensate for the 

drift over ground by alter your course.



The rudder compensate for propeller effect and different aileron drag from 

left side to right side when airplane is unbalanced in weight distribution 

(fuel or people)



The trim tab just take the load off the controls.



Jan

---

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Tue May 19, 2009 2:27 am Post subject: rudder trim tab

Hi Jan-



I understand the compensation for wind effect by altering the course,  

but what got me to thinking about the cockpit-adjustable rudder trim  

tab, is that lately I've been playing around with changing speed of  

flight by reducing my rpm so that I see less fuel consumption (as  

revealed by my fuel flow gauge), and as a result I have noticed that  

the ball is slightly off-center at times. I thought that because I  

have a ground-adjustable rudder tab right now, which I understand is  

only good for a certain speed for any particular setting, that it  

would be good to have the cockpit-adjustable rudder tab. Is this not so?



I almost always fly alone, and my fuel usage is pretty even from tank  

to tank...that is, side to side, with the 13 gallon tanks in each wing.

Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, #2062, 655.4 hrs

Sensenich 62x46 Wood prop

Electroair direct-fire ignition system

Status: flying



On May 19, 2009, at 2:02 AM, JC Propeller Design wrote:



[quote] 

 <propellerdesign(at)tele2.se>



 Lynn,



 you do not compensate for crosswind with the trim tab, you move  

 along with the mass of air (steady air) at the same speed as it  

 blows, if you don't go directly in to the wind or with the wind,  

 you have to compensate for the drift over ground by alter your course.



 The rudder compensate for propeller effect and different aileron  

 drag from left side to right side when airplane is unbalanced in  

 weight distribution (fuel or people)



 The trim tab just take the load off the controls.



 Jan

 ---

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

KITFOXZ(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Tue May 19, 2009 2:55 am Post subject: rudder trim tab

Lowell,

  

 Now THIS IS JUST TOO COOL!!!  I will be anxious to find out how  effective it will be.  Did you reject the idea of putting it in the  vertical stabilizer?  --Would be more effective and to the point I  think.  In the photo, it looks like it may be a bit shy on camber changing  moment.  Do you think it will be enough?  --Or are you trying to  approach it from a conservative position just to prove the concept?   Perhaps I just don't see the potential deflection amount from this angle.   --Although it shouldn't take much.  We can't wait!  Put that rudder on  someone else's bird that is already flying to get the thing producing some  numbers!  Why aren't you working with the Rutan's?  You are a  genious!

  

 BTW, The new Boeing 787 has a feature that is interesting:  "Variable  Camber Wing Trailing Edges"???

  

 Can't wait to learn more about these!

  

 John

  

 John P. Marzluf 

 Columbus, Ohio

 Outback (out back in the garage)  

  

  In a message dated 5/18/2009 8:59:57 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  John,



I agree with you entirely.  That is why I resisted    the trim tab for so long. 

The washer idea didn't occur to me as I was a    rank novice in the building 

and early flying stages.  The trim tab    just finally made sense and I did it 

and never regretted it.  Since    then, however, I have been thinking quite a 

bit about the whole    issue.  I am thinking of building my own engine mount 

with the    offsets built into it, and I have been tinkering with a cockpit 

adustable    rudder trim as I doubt a washer or two or an offset will 

completely negate    any yaw tendency at all power settings.



I guess this is as good a time    as any to present my rudder trim system.  I 

have a servo in the    rudder that will warp the two bottom ribs giving a 

different cambered    surface on one side or the other.  The ribs are tied 

together so I    will get an overcamber and undercamber on a desired side, or a 

symmetric    surface on both sides controllable with a switch in the cockpit. 

Of course    it has yet to fly, but it is something I have been thinking about 

long    before the opportunity to build again came up.



Lowell

----- Original    Message ----- 

From: <KITFOXZ(at)aol.com>

To:    <kitfox-list(at)matronics.com>

Sent: Monday, May 18, 2009 3:51    PM

Subject: Re: rudder trim tab

 	  Quote: 	
		   Hello    Will,



 My Ship is not yet flying but I wanted to chime  in    on this thread.  I 

 have

 always believed that an airplane    should be built  to fly straight and 

 level

 first.     My model building days (and my  aeronautical engineer father)

    taught me to pay particular attention  to true alignment and close to    

 perfect

 airfoils in all aspects of  building.  A    banana shaped fuselage is a curse 

 one

 never will     overcome.  A warped wing will be more and more of a liability

 as    the ship  picks up speed in it's death spiral to mother    earth.



 With a straight and true  airframe accomplished    first, the builder next

 tackles an engine  mount.  The    engine's propeller will cause a torque turn 

 in

 the     opposite direction of the prop rotation.  A shim in the engine mount    

 is

 the  best way to fix the problem in my book.  I    don't like the idea of

 having to  change more than a little pitch    trim when the engine quits.  An

 airplane  should glide    straight in my opinion.  If the engine quits, your 

 hands

    are  already full and I don't want to have to be standing on some rudder    

 too,

 trying  to overcome my trim tab.



    Actually, isn't a washer or two under the left  engine mount to    firewall

 points a heck of a lot easier than fabricating a trim     tab?  It's a lot 

 less

 ugly!



 OK, I    apologize, John, Lowell, Lynn, your trim  tabs are beautiful but,

    isn't a simple washer for a little right thrust a  solution to the    point?



 If the airplane fly's straight and true  naturally    and as you add power 

 the

 right thrust becomes more and more    effective  to counteract the very 

 torque

 turn you are    trying to kill in the first  place.  Isn't this a solution

    near to God and the birds?



 Dang propellers    anyway!



 John

 John P. Marzluf

 Columbus,    Ohio

 Outback (out back in the     garage)



 In a message dated 5/17/2009 3:03:29    P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,

 lurcottstudios(at)yahoo.com    writes:



 Greetings,

 I have been reading the list here    for a  while, and want to take the

 opportunity to say thanks to    all of  you.  I have a Series V with a 

 Lycoming    O-235

 which is a great  source of fun and unending lessons for    me. There is one

 issue that I  have, and that is that I must    always input right rudder. I

 expect that  at higher power    settings, but at cruise? Anyway, I was 

 wondering

 since     the aircraft is already covered and flying is there some add-on 

    type

 tab  that I could affix to the rudder so that I don't have    to constantly 

 push

 on that right side. Cruise requires about    3-4 pounds or so of pressure. 

 If

 someone has a photo or    drawing, I would appreciate that too, as I am  very

 visual.    Thanks for any input.

 Will Lurcott

 Series V

 Lyc     O-235

 Flagler Beach, FL

    (http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List)

    (http://www.matronics.com/contribution)





    **************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See Yours in Just 2    

 Easy

 Steps!

 =Mayfooter51809NO115)

  

	

	


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  [quote][b]

propellerdesign(at)tele2.
Guest

Posted: Tue May 19, 2009 3:59 am Post subject: rudder trim tab

Yes sure,



I might have misunderstood you.



A cockpit adjustable trim tab is better then a fixed, specially when flying 

(for longer times) at different speeds. and with high power airplanes with 

greater speed range.



Jan

---

Paul A. Franz, P.E.

Joined: 02 Dec 2008
Posts: 280
Location: Bellevue WA

Posted: Tue May 19, 2009 5:31 am Post subject: rudder trim tab

On Mon, May 18, 2009 11:02 pm, JC Propeller Design wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   you do not compensate for crosswind with the trim tab, you move along with

 the mass of air (steady air) at the same speed as it blows, if you don't go

 directly in to the wind or with the wind, you have to compensate for the

 drift over ground by alter your course.


	


I agree but offer a slight correction so as to be consistent with textbooks and exams

and the like. That is "alter your course" should be 'altering your heading'. You could

have a heading that pointed you at the destination but your course would be a modified

catenary. You could choose a heading such that your course would be a straight line.

So you actually alter your heading to affect the course. Rather picky, I know. Just

that this is a common test question.



Clip Clip clip



 	  Quote: 	
		   The trim tab just take the load off the controls.


	


That is it in a nutshell. Trim is for unloading the control forces.

-- 

Paul A. Franz

Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT

Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP

Bellevue WA

425.241.1618 Cell



"An unlimited power to tax involves, necessarily, a power to

destroy; because there is a limit beyond which no institution and

no property can bear taxation."



-- John Marshall, McCullough v. Maryland, 1819

_________________
Paul A. Franz, P.E.
Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT
Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP
Bellevue WA
425.241.1618 Cell
425.440.9505 Office

lurcottstudios(at)yahoo.c
Guest

Posted: Tue May 19, 2009 6:34 am Post subject: rudder trim tab

Hello All,

Thanks to everyone and to Lowell and  Lynn for the photos and drawings. As a side note, my plane glides fine. However, gliding is not the primary M.O. for me. I have been told that if there is a roll tendency, versus a yaw, then the twist of the wings is a factor. Not the issue for me either. Many other aircraft have rudder trim--it just makes sense. I fly for hours at a time, and with different power settings. P-factor, torque, engine offset etc.--- it all boils down to riding that right rudder. If I don't do something soon, my right leg will look like Popeye's arm, and the left will atrophy. 

The nicest installation I have seen so far is posted on the teamkitfox web site by Bruce,  who goes by Airlina. It utilizes a servo connected to a tab. Additionally, he has a two speed switch for the elevator trim. Really, really nice work. My  favorite idea is the one posted by Lowell. Lowell, changing the camber is nothing short of a spectacular idea!!! Indeed, a very Wright idea! I would like to see a few more photos of your project as the idea of no extruding members for trim is very appealing. Great work. Thanks again to all of you for your input! 

Will

Series V 

Lyc.O-235

Flagler Beach, FL



         [quote][b]

Tom Jones

Joined: 12 Mar 2006
Posts: 752
Location: Ellensburg, WA

Posted: Tue May 19, 2009 6:46 am Post subject: Re: rudder trim tab

[quote="lurcottstudios(at)yahoo.c"]Greetings,

I have been reading the list here for a while, and want to take the opportunity to say thanks to all of you.  I have a Series V with a Lycoming O-235 which is a great source of fun and unending lessons for me. There is one issue that I have, and that is that I must always input right rudder. I expect that at higher power settings, but at cruise? Anyway, I was wondering since the aircraft is already covered and flying is there some add-on type tab that I could affix to the rudder so that I don't have to constantly push on that right side. Cruise requires about 3-4 pounds or so of pressure. If someone has a photo or drawing, I would appreciate that too, as I am very visual. Thanks for any input. 

Will Lurcott

Series V

Lyc O-235

Flagler Beach, FL



Will,

Have you thought about an extra adjustable spring or bungee attached to the right rudder pedal?  Maybe a stronger spring on the right and weaker on the left?  Just thinking out loud.



My prop rotation is left hand.  I need to hold just very slight left rudder in cruise to center the ball.



I have thought about a small bungee attached to the left pedal, run it forward to a pully on the fire wall, tie a piece of parachute cord with knots every inch or so on the end and run that back to where I can pull on it and catch the right knot in a notch in a piece of aluminum attached on the front door frame somewhere.  Sorry, wordy not visual.



          	  Quote: 	
		  [b]

_________________
Tom Jones
Classic IV
503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp
Ellensburg, WA

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Tue May 19, 2009 7:36 am Post subject: rudder trim tab

I am presently working on a controllable trim tab just like Bruce  

Lina's. In fact, I just received the same controller that Bruce used  

in his design. Now I'm working on a way to mount the servo...a model  

airplane, giant scale servo...into the rudder, and make it secure.  

Then I'll worry about running the wire through the fuselage. I've  

already got the controller mounting bracket ready to attach to the  

panel.....damn! I couldn't find room on the panel itself that was  

convenient for the mounting and reaching, so I had to attach it below  

and next to the choke, throttle and carb heat bracket. It is very  

reachable there, and better than on the console, I believe. This is  

the first time that I've had to add something to the plane that  

didn't fit into the panel. I'd better run out of ideas pretty soon,  

because I've already run out of room. : )

Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, #2062, 655.4 hrs

Sensenich 62x46 Wood prop

Electroair direct-fire ignition system

Status: flying





On May 19, 2009, at 10:31 AM, william lurcott wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Hello All,

 Thanks to everyone and to Lowell and  Lynn for the photos and  

 drawings. As a side note, my plane glides fine. However, gliding is  

 not the primary M.O. for me. I have been told that if there is a  

 roll tendency, versus a yaw, then the twist of the wings is a  

 factor. Not the issue for me either. Many other aircraft have  

 rudder trim--it just makes sense. I fly for hours at a time, and  

 with different power settings. P-factor, torque, engine offset  

 etc.--- it all boils down to riding that right rudder. If I don't  

 do something soon, my right leg will look like Popeye's arm, and  

 the left will atrophy.

 The nicest installation I have seen so far is posted on the  

 teamkitfox web site by Bruce,  who goes by Airlina. It utilizes a  

 servo connected to a tab. Additionally, he has a two speed switch  

 for the elevator trim. Really, really nice work. My favorite idea  

 is the one posted by Lowell. Lowell, changing the camber is nothing  

 short of a spectacular idea!!! Indeed, a very Wright idea! I would  

 like to see a few more photos of your project as the idea of no  

 extruding members for trim is very appealing. Great work. Thanks  

 again to all of you for your input!

 Will

 Series V

 Lyc.O-235

 Flagler Beach, FL



 www.matronics.com/contribution _- 

 ============================================================

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

propellerdesign(at)tele2.
Guest

Posted: Tue May 19, 2009 8:09 am Post subject: rudder trim tab

Yes you are correct, and I'm glad you make my inglish better. not many on 

this list can read Swedish (our little Norway (LN-) friends can) so I 

struggle with my inglish!

 We can also call the course, track!

as an old skipper I use the words I learned long ago. and in Swedish. like- 

kög kk mk where k=kurs-course

I still gets where I want to go.



Jan



Ps, when doing air-towing of gliders sometimes we put both left and right 

foot, (shoos) on the starboard (right) pedal, specially on long tows. an 

adjustable tab would have been nice.



---

Michel

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 966
Location: Norway

Posted: Tue May 19, 2009 9:37 am Post subject: rudder trim tab

 	  Quote: 	
		   From: JC Propeller Design [propellerdesign(at)tele2.se]

 (our little Norway (LN-) friends can)


	


.. er, what? Hum, Lima November waking up! 

I also reacted to tue use of the rudder trim for crosswind but ... here it is:



The course is the direction in which the aircraft is heading! This is not my definition but the one from the Royal Air Force book my father had under World War II. And, after all, the Brits invented the English language!



So, heading and course are the same thing. The difference is that the Americans call it "heading" and the Brits call it " course" ... of course! (Yes, pun intended!)



The actual path the aircraft is tracing in relation to the ground is called the track.



Another difference between American and British English is that the Americans call the magnetic declination for magnetic variation. In fact, the magnetic variation is, as it name says, the yearly variation of the magnetic declination and the magnetic deviation is what deviates it from nearby magnetic structure.



Cheers,

Michel Verheughe

Norway

Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200



Do not archive



<pre><b><font size  color="#000000" face="courier new,courier">

_________________
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Tue May 19, 2009 11:06 am Post subject: rudder trim tab

Permit a rookie to take the chance on embarrassing himself, but I  

think heading is the direction that the plane is headed (duh!), and  

course is the intended flight path. With no wind, heading and course  

are the same direction. With a wind from  the left side, heading will  

be to the left of the intended destination, and vice versa if the  

wind is from the right of the plane. I was flying this morning  

pointing at 220 degrees (heading), and my track was 179-181  

degrees...pretty good breeze up there!

Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, #2062, 656.1 hrs

Sensenich 62x46 Wood prop

Electroair direct-fire ignition system

Status: flying

On May 19, 2009, at 1:32 PM, Michel Verheughe wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  > From: JC Propeller Design [propellerdesign(at)tele2.se]

> (our little Norway (LN-) friends can)

 ... er, what? Hum, Lima November waking up! 

 I also reacted to tue use of the rudder trim for crosswind but ...  

 here it is:

 The course is the direction in which the aircraft is heading! This  

 is not my definition but the one from the Royal Air Force book my  

 father had under World War II. And, after all, the Brits invented  

 the English language!

 So, heading and course are the same thing. The difference is that  

 the Americans call it "heading" and the Brits call it " course" ...  

 of course! (Yes, pun intended!)

 The actual path the aircraft is tracing in relation to the ground  

 is called the track.

 Another difference between American and British English is that the  

 Americans call the magnetic declination for magnetic variation. In  

 fact, the magnetic variation is, as it name says, the yearly  

 variation of the magnetic declination and the magnetic deviation is  

 what deviates it from nearby magnetic structure.

 Cheers,

 Michel Verheughe

 Norway

 Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

 Do not archive

 <pre><b><font size  color="#000000" face="courier new,courier">

 List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List</a>

 forums.matronics.com</a>

 www.matronics.com/contribution</a>

 </b></font></pre>

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

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