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Rotax Operating Parameters

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John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Thu Jun 04, 2009 2:49 pm Post subject: Rotax Operating Parameters

If the engine is propped correctly, 5800 rpm in  cruise is 75% power.

  

 Don't believe the engines are intended to be  operated without a prop.

  

 john h

 mkIII

 [quote]    

   Don't you believe manifold pressure or throttle position should also be a    factor in determining % of power calculations? At full throttle my 503 pulled    2 inches of cable out of the housing and turned 6200 on climb out.But at    cruise at 5500 it only pulled 7/8 of an inch of cable out of the housing.With    no prop on it,it probably would turn 7000 slightly off idle but it would not    be a good measure of power production.5800 could be 75% of allowable rpm but    not power production it would seem to me.

  Just wondering,G    Aman



   



    

[b]

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

lucien

Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 721
Location: santa fe, NM

Posted: Thu Jun 04, 2009 4:38 pm Post subject: Re: Rotax Operating Parameters

 	  John Hauck wrote: 	
		  If the engine is propped correctly, 5800 rpm in  cruise is 75% power.

  

 Don't believe the engines are intended to be  operated without a prop.

  

 john h

 mkIII

	




Ah, thanks for starting a new thead on this.



So if I may ask again, how many hours do you have on the 503 at 6500 continuous rpm? How many motors did you run to TBO at that setting? How many did you run past TBO?

I'd also be interested in your operating parameters - CHT and EGT readings in particular.



Thanks,

LS

_________________
LS
Titan II SS

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Thu Jun 04, 2009 5:21 pm Post subject: Rotax Operating Parameters

> So if I may ask again, how many hours do you have on the 503 at 6500 

continuous rpm? How many motors did you run to TBO at that setting? How many 

did you run past TBO?

 	  Quote: 	
		   I'd also be interested in your operating parameters - CHT and EGT readings 

 in particular.



 Thanks,

 LS


	


Had a Cuyuna ULIIO2 on my Ultrastar.  It had 385.0 hours on it when I tossed 

the parachute and totaled the airplane.  This engine developed 75% power at 

5800 rpm.  5800 rpm was my cruise power setting.  I can not remember what 

max continuous rpm was.  Been 24 years since I flew that airplane.  No 

problems with this engine.  Flew that time in one year.



Had two Rotax 447 single carb engines.  Kept one built on the bench so I 

would not miss air shows.  Flew these engines 1135 hours in my original 

Firestar, in all states east of the Mississippi and a hand full west of the 

Mississippi River.  Cruise power was 5800 rpm.  Biggest problem with these 

engines was dual point ignition.  Timing was critical for optimum 

performance, or even mediocre performance.  Soon and new points started 

wearing in, timing changed.  On a typical 3 to 4 week cross country flight 

the points rubbing blocks would wear enough to cause engine problems.  Many 

engines in the old days were seized and ruined because of point ign.  Coils, 

hard mounted on the blower housing would wear so badly from vibration, the 

coil windings would break loose inside the steel frame.  Another weakness 

was caged wrist pin bearings which failed and destroyed an entire engine. 

Never had a big end bearing or crank be aring fail.  I don't know how many 

hours each engine had individually.  Parts and components were swapped when 

necessary to keep me flying.  One of those engines came from Disney World 

when they had a flight demo team in Orlando.  BTW, I put that time on the FS 

in less than 3 years.



I never had a CHT problem and can not remember what temps I operated at. 

CHT was run 1150 to 1200F cruise and about 1050 full throttle.



You asked how many hours I have on a 503 at 6500 rpm.  Have no idea. 

Probably not many.  My 503 experience is flying factory aircraft equipped 

with that engine, usually at Sun and Fun and Oshkosh.  Normally, not much 

chance to pull 6500 rpm in that environment, but the factory always pitches 

engines light for the two big air shows.  Makes for impressive take off and 

climb rates.  Probably pulled well over 6500 every take off and down wind if 

there wasn't someone in my way.  



I didn't fly my two strokes WOT on cross countries because of their 

vulnerabilities and the fact I was breaking new ground by traveling many 

miles from home.  Normal cruise was 5800.



912 is a different animal.  WOT for several hours climbing over the Rockies 

is not uncommon.  5000 is normal cruise, for me, but 5200 and 5400 if I need 

it.



I believe two and four stroke engines today need to be run, not babied.  I 

flew 60.2 hours in less than 18 days.  The last two days on my return 

flight, about 15 hours, were turned at 5200.  Normally, my cruise speed 

increases as I get nearer to home base.  



john h

mkIII

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

lucien

Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 721
Location: santa fe, NM

Posted: Thu Jun 04, 2009 8:07 pm Post subject: Re: Rotax Operating Parameters

 	  John Hauck wrote: 	
		  

Had a Cuyuna ULIIO2 on my Ultrastar.  It had 385.0 hours on it when I tossed 

the parachute and totaled the airplane.  This engine developed 75% power at 

5800 rpm.  5800 rpm was my cruise power setting.  I can not remember what 

max continuous rpm was.  Been 24 years since I flew that airplane.  No 

problems with this engine.  Flew that time in one year.



Had two Rotax 447 single carb engines.  Kept one built on the bench so I 

would not miss air shows.  Flew these engines 1135 hours in my original 

Firestar, in all states east of the Mississippi and a hand full west of the 

Mississippi River.  Cruise power was 5800 rpm.  Biggest problem with these 

engines was dual point ignition.  Timing was critical for optimum 

performance, or even mediocre performance.  Soon and new points started 

wearing in, timing changed.  On a typical 3 to 4 week cross country flight 

the points rubbing blocks would wear enough to cause engine problems.  Many 

engines in the old days were seized and ruined because of point ign.  Coils, 

hard mounted on the blower housing would wear so badly from vibration, the 

coil windings would break loose inside the steel frame.  Another weakness 

was caged wrist pin bearings which failed and destroyed an entire engine. 

Never had a big end bearing or crank be aring fail.  I don't know how many 

hours each engine had individually.  Parts and components were swapped when 

necessary to keep me flying.  One of those engines came from Disney World 

when they had a flight demo team in Orlando.  BTW, I put that time on the FS 

in less than 3 years.



I never had a CHT problem and can not remember what temps I operated at. 

CHT was run 1150 to 1200F cruise and about 1050 full throttle.



You asked how many hours I have on a 503 at 6500 rpm.  Have no idea. 

Probably not many.  My 503 experience is flying factory aircraft equipped 

with that engine, usually at Sun and Fun and Oshkosh.  Normally, not much 

chance to pull 6500 rpm in that environment, but the factory always pitches 

engines light for the two big air shows.  Makes for impressive take off and 

climb rates.  Probably pulled well over 6500 every take off and down wind if 

there wasn't someone in my way.  



I didn't fly my two strokes WOT on cross countries because of their 

vulnerabilities and the fact I was breaking new ground by traveling many 

miles from home.  Normal cruise was 5800.



912 is a different animal.  WOT for several hours climbing over the Rockies 

is not uncommon.  5000 is normal cruise, for me, but 5200 and 5400 if I need 

it.



I believe two and four stroke engines today need to be run, not babied.  I 

flew 60.2 hours in less than 18 days.  The last two days on my return 

flight, about 15 hours, were turned at 5200.  Normally, my cruise speed 

increases as I get nearer to home base.  



john h

mkIII 	




Ok, was just wondering. After 10 years and lost-count-of hours hanging under the 503, I just found 6500 rpm continuous an extremely unusual recommendation. not one that jives with my and many others experiences with this engine.



It's a good climbout RPM that will have no ill effects, but not on a continuous basis....



The 2 strokes stay together just fine over the long haul, but that means running at the 5400 watering hole rpm. 5800 the 447 and 503 can usually take ok, tho the engine would probably be more reliable over time about 400 rpm below that for cruise. Even more important for the 582.

WOT all the time and no I'm not surprised you had some trouble with them.



The 2-strokes can't be flown like our 912's, as you say they're very different animals. My 912ULS just laughs when I push the go-stick forward to the stop, no problem holding it open as needed. I do 5000 to 5100 cruise on mine and it just hums along......



LS

_________________
LS
Titan II SS

sky-king(at)inbox.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Jun 05, 2009 3:13 am Post subject: Rotax Operating Parameters

EGT and CHT are all in the green.The CHT has increased some due to the warmer weather of summer but still in the green.CHT 180F front cyl. 200F back cyl. EGT 870F front, 1100F back.



[quote] --

Blumax008(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Jun 05, 2009 6:04 am Post subject: Rotax Operating Parameters

In a message dated 6/4/2009 8:39:34 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  lstavenhagen(at)hotmail.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  So if I    may ask again, how many hours do you have on the 503 at 6500 continuous rpm?    How many motors did you run to TBO at that setting? How many did you run past    TBO?

	


 

 This is me again. Over 1,600 hours on my 12 year old 503, with now 4  top overhauls. Just did one. Checked the crank...no problems, no strange noises.  Probably 50% of those hours are WIDE OPEN towing hang gliders.

  

 IF IT AIN'T BROKE...DON'T FIX IT.

 Mortgage rates dropped. Record lows. $200,000 for $1,029/mo Fixed. LendingTree®

  [quote][b]

Blumax008(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Jun 05, 2009 6:08 am Post subject: Rotax Operating Parameters

In a message dated 6/5/2009 12:08:00 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  lstavenhagen(at)hotmail.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  I    believe two and four stroke engines today need to be run, not  babied. 	


 

 I concur 100%. They love running wide open...and run (or should run) cooler  wide open. I'm talking 503 with Pennzoil.

  

 Bill Catalina

 Florida

 Mortgage rates dropped. Record lows. $200,000 for $1,029/mo Fixed. LendingTree®

  [quote][b]

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Fri Jun 05, 2009 6:20 am Post subject: Rotax Operating Parameters

> Ok, was just wondering. After 10 years and lost-count-of hours hanging 

under the 503, I just found 6500 rpm continuous an extremely unusual 

recommendation. not one that jives with my and many others experiences with 

this engine.

 	  Quote: 	
		  

 It's a good climbout RPM that will have no ill effects, but not on a 

 continuous basis....



 The 2 strokes stay together just fine over the long haul, but that means 

 running at the 5400 watering hole rpm. 5800 the 447 and 503 can usually 

 take ok, tho the engine would probably be more reliable over time about 

 400 rpm below that for cruise. Even more important for the 582.

 WOT all the time and no I'm not surprised you had some trouble with them.


	


LUCIEN





The Op Man indicates take off speed 447/503 - 6800 rpm max 5 min.



Cruise speed - 6500 rpm.

582 - 6400 rpm max 5 min.



Cruise speed - 6000 rpm.



Eric Tucker, Kodiak Research indicates 5800 rpm optimum cruise.



Only one way to keep up with flight time and engine operating time, log it.



john h

mkIII

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

lucien

Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 721
Location: santa fe, NM

Posted: Fri Jun 05, 2009 1:01 pm Post subject: Re: Rotax Operating Parameters

 	  John Hauck wrote: 	
		  

LUCIEN



Cruise speed - 6500 rpm.



john h

mkIII 	




Well ok - it's your engine and airframe. Good luck with it....



LS

_________________
LS
Titan II SS

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Fri Jun 05, 2009 1:24 pm Post subject: Rotax Operating Parameters

 	  Quote: 	
		  > Cruise speed - 6500 rpm.

> 

> john h

> mkIII

 

 

 Well ok - it's your engine and airframe. Good luck with it....

 

 LS

 
	




Those figures came right out of the Rotax two manual for the 582/503/447.



This is what the manufacturer recommends.



john h

mkIII

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

lucien

Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 721
Location: santa fe, NM

Posted: Fri Jun 05, 2009 2:39 pm Post subject: Re: Rotax Operating Parameters

 	  John Hauck wrote: 	
		  



Those figures came right out of the Rotax two manual for the 582/503/447.



This is what the manufacturer recommends.



john h

mkIII 	




FWIW, the manual also recommends a max CHT of 485F on the 503. You might give Ronnie Smith or any other Rotax repair station a call about that one - ask them how long the engine will run at or even below 485F. You might be surprised at what they tell you.



But like I said, you don't have to believe me. Lots of other guys with the same years and hours and even more on the 503 who can tell you more or less what I have....



LS

_________________
LS
Titan II SS

aoldman(at)xtra.co.nz
Guest

Posted: Fri Jun 05, 2009 10:26 pm Post subject: Rotax Operating Parameters

350 hrs at 6100 to 6200 and engine still running well, good compresions 

,starts well and passes all tests . I did an overhaul on a 503 a number of 

years ago that included breaking the crank replacing the main bearings with 

proper rotax ones and re ringing the engine then flew about 200 hrs on it 

before selling the Thruster Gemini{ Australian kit} Last time I spoke to the 

new owner he had flown it past 800hrs and on sold the engine  that was then 

put on another project and still running fine. This engine was a single 

points ignition T/C and always ran well, checked points and ring tensions 

about every 100hrs, other than that carbs cleaned and checked at 50hrs. 

Never found anything that would indicate that they needed looked at this 

often. The only problem that I ever had was some times it would idale a bit 

rough, every time this happened it was a bit of something{ fibreglass from 

the fuel tank }cought up in the fuel air mixing part of the carb . Very fine 

glass strands and hard to see for the first time



Downunder

MK111c 503



---

lucien

Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 721
Location: santa fe, NM

Posted: Sat Jun 06, 2009 6:24 am Post subject: Re: Rotax Operating Parameters

 	  aoldman(at)xtra.co.nz wrote: 	
		  350 hrs at 6100 to 6200 and engine still running well, good compresions 

,starts well and passes all tests . I did an overhaul on a 503 a number of 

years ago that included breaking the crank replacing the main bearings with 

proper rotax ones and re ringing the engine then flew about 200 hrs on it 

before selling the Thruster Gemini{ Australian kit} Last time I spoke to the 

new owner he had flown it past 800hrs and on sold the engine  that was then 

put on another project and still running fine. This engine was a single 

points ignition T/C and always ran well, checked points and ring tensions 

about every 100hrs, other than that carbs cleaned and checked at 50hrs. 

Never found anything that would indicate that they needed looked at this 

often. The only problem that I ever had was some times it would idale a bit 

rough, every time this happened it was a bit of something{ fibreglass from 

the fuel tank }cought up in the fuel air mixing part of the carb . Very fine 

glass strands and hard to see for the first time



Downunder

MK111c 503



--- 	




As I said, when you run the engine continuously that hard, you're taking your chances.



Those of us with years and many hours of experience with this engine know this. Advice on the operation of this engine (or any engine) from those who do _not_ have that experience should only be taken with a lot of cross-checking with experienced operators. 



Your plane and your motor is on the line - be careful... Make lots of phone calls and ask questions of experienced persons first before you commit to that advice.



The 503 is probably the toughest 2-stroke available. Even at $4k it's probably still the best deal available in aviation for 50bhp. It gives long life and very reliable operation as long as it's run the way we know how to run it.



The only problem I ever had with a 503 was taking off once with one of the chokes stuck partially open - stumbled pretty bad as I approached full throttle. Shut the choke and installed a primer system and that was cured....



LS

_________________
LS
Titan II SS

Dana

Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 1047
Location: Connecticut, USA

Posted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 3:11 pm Post subject: Rotax Operating Parameters

At 09:20 PM 6/4/2009, John Hauck wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  Had a Cuyuna ULIIO2 on my Ultrastar.  It had 385.0 hours on it...

Had two Rotax 447 single carb engines.  Kept one built on the bench so I 

would not miss air shows.  Flew these engines 1135 hours...


	


Hey John,



What's your take on the relative reliability of the Cuyuna vs. the Rotax 

when both are properly maintained?  The Cuyunas are notorious, of course, 

but I wonder how much of that is due to the aviation world's unfamiliarity 

with 2-strokes when the Cuyunas were being produced?



With only about 30 trouble free hours (I don't blame the engine for a 

carburetor failure) so far on my UltraStar I can't say myself, but he 

Continental in my T-Craft got quiet a couple of times too...



-Dana



--

  "640K of computer memory ought to be enough for anybody." - Bill Gates, 1981

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 4:52 pm Post subject: Rotax Operating Parameters

> What's your take on the relative reliability of the Cuyuna vs. the Rotax

 	  Quote: 	
		   when both are properly maintained?  The Cuyunas are notorious, of course, 

 but I wonder how much of that is due to the aviation world's unfamiliarity 

 with 2-strokes when the Cuyunas were being produced?




	


 	  Quote: 	
		   -Dana


	


Was as good as a Rotax 377.



ULII02 had CDI ignition.  Rotax had points (during my day).



ULII02 used Mikuni Carb.  Rotax used Bing.  I liked the Mikuni better, but 

they stopped furnishing carbs for aviation applications.



ULII02 had a base cylinder gasket problem due to milling away too much 

material from the cases to lighten the engine.  Required frequent base 

cylinder gasket replacement which required pulling the engine from the 

airframe, pulling heads and cylinders.



Had a PTO end crank bearing seize on a 10 hour ULII02.  Cheap Chinese 

bearing with nylon cage.  Ruined crank when it welded race to crank end.



We were also having piston pin bearing failures on the Rotax's, because of 

caged wrist pin bearings.



The ULII02 was a strong running 35 hp.  Did a great job on the Ultrastar 

with a 50X30 Jim Culver prop.



I was a self taught fixed wing pilot in my Ultrastar.  It was a fine 

airplane to learn in and enjoy flying.  It had some weak points, but overall 

was a good little airplane.



john h

mkIII

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

GeoB

Joined: 16 Jun 2009
Posts: 207
Location: Fresno, CA

Posted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 1:31 pm Post subject: Ultrastar (was Rotax Operating Parameters)

 	  John Hauck wrote: 	
		  



 It was a fine airplane to learn in and enjoy flying.  It had some weak points, but overall was a good little airplane.



john h

mkIII 	




John, I am a flamin' Nubie here... (not a pilot, have no plane) I am interested in Kolbs that are 103 compliant. I was totally impressed with a Firefly I saw at Brians Ranch fly-in. Just looking at pictures the Ultrastar caught my eye. I want something to learn on and not die too soon.



Could you elaborate a little on the strengths and weaknesses of the Ultrastar as you perceive them? And if you have time, maybe you could touch on the Firefly?



(my first post, be gentle with me)

GeoB

_________________
GeoB

"Members of Congress should be compelled to wear uniforms like NASCAR drivers, so we could identify their corporate sponsors"

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 1:59 pm Post subject: Rotax Operating Parameters

 	  Quote: 	
		   John, I am a flamin' Nubie here... (not a pilot, have no plane) I am 

 interested in Kolbs that are 103 compliant. I was totally impressed with a 

 Firefly I saw at Brians Ranch fly-in. Just looking at pictures the 

 Ultrastar caught my eye. I want something to learn on and not die too 

 soon.



 Could you elaborate a little on the strengths and weaknesses of the 

 Ultrastar as you perceive them? And if you have time, maybe you could 

 touch on the Firefly?



 (my first post, be gentle with me)

 GeoB


	


GeoB:



I don't think the US is FAR Part 103 compliant.  It flies too fast.



The Fire Fly can be built to comply with Part 103, but would be a difficult 

task to accomplish.



Neither would be a good choice to "learn on and not die too soon".



Both are conventional 3 axis control airplanes.  Best learn to fly before 

you try one.



john h

mkIII

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

Dana

Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 1047
Location: Connecticut, USA

Posted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 6:12 pm Post subject: Rotax Operating Parameters

At 05:58 PM 6/17/2009, John Hauck wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  I don't think the US is FAR Part 103 compliant.  It flies too fast.



The Fire Fly can be built to comply with Part 103, but would be a 

difficult task to accomplish.


	


John, I know you've said before your US was quite fast and I believe you, 

but mine seems to cruise at 55 mph at 5800 rpm... I didn't carefully 

measure level flight speed at WOT, but I don't think it's in excess of the 

55 knot (62 mph) max.  Not sure why yours would be that much faster, unless 

you had a pod or additional streamlining that I don't have.



Both the FF and the US require stern discipline to keep within the 103 

weight limits, but it can be done.



-Dana

--

  Ever notice the Secret Service and the Nazi SS have the same initials?

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 6:29 pm Post subject: Rotax Operating Parameters

 	  Quote: 	
		   John, I know you've said before your US was quite fast and I believe you, 

 but mine seems to cruise at 55 mph at 5800 rpm... I didn't carefully 

 measure level flight speed at WOT, but I don't think it's in excess of the 

 55 knot (62 mph) max.  Not sure why yours would be that much faster, 

 unless you had a pod or additional streamlining that I don't have.

 >
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   -Dana


	




I thought they all flew like mine, when I was flying it.



I built it strictly stock, to plans.



Cuyuna ULII02 and a Jim Culver 50X30 prop.



No streamlining.



Did have a small instrument pod over my knees.



Flew with a Winter Venturi ASI which is very accurate across the entire 

range.  It was 0 to 75 mph, but the needle would wind past the 75 mph mark. 

Interpolation was 85 mph.



My original Firestar had the same performance with a 447 and a 60X30 Jim 

Culver Prop.



My MKIII flies well and is faster than most mkIII's.  I don't know why. 

Maybe the way I build them.  I shrink fabric to the point of pulling tubing. 

I like really tight fabric.



john h

mkIII

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

jbhart(at)onlyinternet.ne
Guest

Posted: Thu Jun 18, 2009 1:34 pm Post subject: Rotax Operating Parameters

At 02:31 PM 6/17/09 -0700, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  


	


 	  Quote: 	
		  I am interested in Kolbs that are 103 compliant. I was totally impressed 

with a Firefly I saw at Brians Ranch fly-in. Just looking at pictures the 
	


Ultrastar caught my eye. I want something to learn on and not die too 

soon.

 	  Quote: 	
		  


	


GeoB,



You may want to check out:



http://www.jackbhart.com/firefly/fireflylegal.html



It is a page describing the design parameters that determine if an aircraft 

can be flown as an ultralight vehicle.  There are two bits of info that are 

difficult to dismiss and they are empty weight and fuel tank volume.  If you 

can meet these two requirements and you can calculate enough drag and low 

enough wing loading, the air craft is declared an ultralight, no matter how 

fast it will fly or at what speed it will stall.



If the UltraStar can meet the empty weight limit, surely it has more drag 

that a FireFly.



For your interest, I invite you to look at:



http://www.jackbhart.com/firefly/firefly.html



and:



http://www.jackbhart.com/firefly/fireflyindex.html



Jack B. Hart FF004

Winchester, IN

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