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Shell Rotella Full Synthetic

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John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2009 6:21 am Post subject: Shell Rotella Full Synthetic

Morning Gang:



Did a very unscientific experiment during my last flight West.  Flew that 

flight with Shell Rotella Full Synthetic 5W40 motor oil.  Wanted to see if 

the engineers at Rotex were completely correct in their guidance of running 

a semi-synthetic motor oil when operating on 100LL av gas.  They indicate 

organic oil better suspends lead than full sythetic, so...semi-synthetic is 

the way to go.



Both John W and I operated on many previous flights with Valvoline Durablend 

Semi-synthetic.  After 60 to 75 hours there was always quite a bit of lead 

remaining in the oil tank bottom at oil change.



I flew 60+ hours, primarily on 100LL, this last flight.  When I pulled the 

oil tank apart, I was surprised to see very little lead residue in the 

bottom of the tank.



As I said initially, this was not by any means a scientific test, but I am 

satisfied the Rotella was as good as or better than suspending lead as 

semi-synthetic motor oil.



Rotex engineers also recommend motorcycle oil for 4 strokes because they 

have a gear lube additive and no "super slick stuff" to interfere with 

operation of the gear box slip clutch.  My theory is, Rotella is used in 

very heavy duty diesel engines.  Most have huge accessory drive gears which 

probably have as much or more stress on them as out little 912 gear boxes. 

The original 5 speed Getrag transmission in my old Dodge Cummins ran 300,000 

miles on 5W30 motor oil, organic.  Don't think I am going to have a gear box 

problem on my 912.



This is my own idea.  Not trying to sell Rotella.  Not saying Rotax 

engineers are wrong.  Not trying to convince anyone else to do what I do. 

However, Rotella Full Synthetic is selling in Walmart for around 19.00 a 

gal.



My first 912 was an 80 hp.  Flew many, many hours on 100LL with it.  Always 

ran Mobil I full synthetic.  This was from 1994-2000, and 1,200+ hours.  No 

lead problems with this engine, that I know of.  Rotax engineers didn't 

recognize the lead problem when operating on 100LL and full synthetic oil 

back then, as far as I know.



john h

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

lucien

Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 721
Location: santa fe, NM

Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2009 6:57 am Post subject: Re: Shell Rotella Full Synthetic

Just for what it's worth, and I've flown many long and ugly sorties into the "oil wars" both on and offline so don't want to do another: But here's my take.



I always go by the weight and service grade (API generally) of an oil rather than nebulous stuff like "additives" that seem never to be specified, etc.



I like to use the highest available API service grade oil in any of my engines, unless there's a specific recommendation. It's always been interesting to me that the Bill and Ted's Excellent motor oil available at the local auto parts places have higher API service grades (up to SM now, I believe) than the motorcycle oils which were at SG last I checked (probably superseded by now). 



If one looks at the grading scheme used by the API on their web site, one sees that it's "backwards compatible" in that newer grades still meet all the specs of the older ones but also add new lubricating properties in addition. So if your engine specifies at least grade SG, an SM oil will be acceptable and will usually lubricate better.



At least in my ground vehicles, Bill And Ted's Excellent oils have always given fine service with no operational problems. On my bikes I still used the recommended oils, but I'd not have been surprised of B&T's SM oil worked fine in them just as the SG grades did.



On my 912, I havn't accumulated enough hours on it to track any difference. I've used a couple different oils so far and the mag plug has always come out clean either way at the oil change. I'm now using the Aeroshell stuff since Rotax recommended it and I have a bunch of it in the hangar. 



Prior to that I used the valvoline and JD when he owned the plane used Mobile 1. Seems like my motor still runs ok and has good compressions, clean mag plug, etc.

I'd personally not hesitate to go back to the Valvoline if I happened to be out of the Aeroshell at the time.



Don't run enough 100LL yet to check for sludge. I'm not surprised that the synthetics work fine with it, tho....



Thanks for the info, very helpful!



LS

_________________
LS
Titan II SS

aoldman(at)xtra.co.nz
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2009 10:56 pm Post subject: Shell Rotella Full Synthetic

While I can not comment on the 4 stroke Rotax on rotella as my Kolb is a 2 

stroke I did run Rotella 30 in a 1937 Chev for a long time. Only problem was 

keeping the oil in, it tended to leak a lot. I had to replace a oil dipper 

on that engine and it was the cleanest old car engine I have ever seen. 

There was no sign of lead in the sump {crankcase } I was told at the time 

that if your engine was in good condition the Rotella was OK but if it was 

well used the Rotella would clean all the cabon out and you could end up 

with a oil burner. I also know that when we used lead fuels in our cars and 

mineral oils the sumps always had large deposits of lead in them on strip 

down.This did not happen with the Rotella.

So I would agree with what John H is saying

Downunder

MK111c

---

Thom Riddle

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)

Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 2:06 am Post subject: Re: Shell Rotella Full Synthetic

John,



A thought occurred to me in regard to your unscientific test of full synthetic oil vs semi-synthetic you used before. I don't know so I'm just asking the question. Is it possible that Rotax recommends a semi-synthetic oil when using a lot of leaded avgas because it extracts the lead and intentionally deposits it in the bottom of the oil tank? Perhaps that is why they don't recommend the full synthetic when using avgas because it does NOT extract the lead and deposit in the bottom of the tank. Maybe the lead at the bottom of the oil tank is a good thing and it not being there is a bad thing. 



This is pure speculation but worth considering maybe?

_________________
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)

Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
- Anonymous

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 4:22 am Post subject: Shell Rotella Full Synthetic

 	  Quote: 	
		   A thought occurred to me in regard to your unscientific test of full 

 synthetic oil vs semi-synthetic you used before. I don't know so I'm just 

 asking the question. Is it possible that Rotax recommends a semi-synthetic 

 oil when using a lot of leaded avgas because it extracts the lead and 

 intentionally deposits it in the bottom of the oil tank? Perhaps that is 

 why they don't recommend the full synthetic when using avgas because it 

 does NOT extract the lead and deposit in the bottom of the tank. Maybe the 

 lead at the bottom of the oil tank is a good thing and it not being there 

 is a bad thing.



 This is pure speculation but worth considering maybe?



 --------

 Thom Riddle


	




Thom:



Ideally, we want all the lead suspended in the motor oil so we can drain it 

out with the oil at scheduled changes, or sooner.  I usually change sooner.



If lead collects in the bottom of the oil tank, it is also collecting in 

other parts and pockets of the engine.  In extreme conditions lead can block 

oil galleries and cause abnormal wear on the engine.



Sludge in an engine is not lead contamination.  I don't have any engines 

with sludge, except my old antique tractors that were run on nondetergent 

oil many years ago.  Some of them have an inch or two of sludge on the 

bottom of the oil pan.  I run Shell Rotella organic oil in everything I have 

except the 912, ATV, and dirt bike.  These three run on Rotella Synthetic. 

All my engines are spotless inside except the old tractors, but they dump 

tons of crap out of them every oil change.  The Rotella is working on years 

of accumulation.



Recently opened up my little Kubota B6100 engine that is pushing 30 years 

old.  Operated on Rotella, it was clean as a whistle.



For Tony Oldman:  The Rotella hasn't increased leakage or oil burning on any 

of the old tractors.



Organic oil suspends lead better than synthetic oil.  The reason Rotax 

recommend semi-synthetic blend when operating on 100LL is to suspend lead 

and do a better job at the 912's higher operating temps.



I have operated my 912 on a 50/50 blend of Rotella and 100LL.  Results were 

no better, if not as good as the results I discovered on this last flight of 

60 hours and 300 gals of 100LL.  I was pleasantly surprised at how little 

lead remained in the bottom of the oil tank.  Only a trace.



We have to remember that this test was conducted under long cross country 

flight conditions, a lot of flight time in a short number of days.  Legs 

were generally two hours length, more or less.  These conditions are quite 

different from local flying.  I use mogas flying locally, but don't do much 

local flying any more.



I'll continue to run the 912 on Rotella Syn and see what happens.



john h

mkIII

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 4:51 am Post subject: Re: Shell Rotella Full Synthetic

 	  aoldman(at)xtra.co.nz wrote: 	
		  

I was told at the time 

that if your engine was in good condition the Rotella was OK but if it was 

well used the Rotella would clean all the cabon out and you could end up 

with a oil burner. I also know that when we used lead fuels in our cars and 

mineral oils the sumps always had large deposits of lead in them on strip 

down.This did not happen with the Rotella.

So I would agree with what John H is saying

Downunder

MK111c

--- 	




This is a wives tale.   I have been told this buy countless people, but its just not true.  Full synthetic oil is better, be it an old car, or a new car.  If you want to stop wear and sludge, and give the protection to your engine synthetic oil is the best way to do it.  I do not want to wear the engine in my car that has 50,000 miles on it any more than I want to wear out a new engine.  ALL my engines get synthetic oil, new or used.



Mike

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 5:04 am Post subject: Shell Rotella Full Synthetic

John, I don't have a dog in this fight and can only pass along what Eric Tucker told the class at Lockwood. Semi synthetic does a better job of keeping the lead from packing in the gearbox of the 912. It's particularly important on the 912S with the 30 degree spacing of the drive dogs. Even with semi synthetic Rotax recommends pulling the gearbox at 600 hours to inspect for lead packing. Should be simple to make a "degree wheel" to check the 30 degree spacing while you're checking drive friction torque per SI-06-1997 Rev 1. Like I said, just passing along what I learned in class. 



Rick



On Tue, Jul 7, 2009 at 7:21 AM, John Hauck <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com (jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com)> wrote:

[quote] --> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com (jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com)>

 

 

 

  	  Quote: 	
		   A thought occurred to me in regard to your unscientific test of full synthetic oil vs semi-synthetic you used before. I don't know so I'm just asking the question. Is it possible that Rotax recommends a semi-synthetic oil when using a lot of leaded avgas because it extracts the lead and intentionally deposits it in the bottom of the oil tank? Perhaps that is why they don't recommend the full synthetic when using avgas because it does NOT extract the lead and deposit in the bottom of the tank. Maybe the lead at the bottom of the oil tank is a good thing and it not being there is a bad thing.

  

 This is pure speculation but worth considering maybe?

 

 --------

 Thom Riddle

 	
 

 

 Thom:

 

 Ideally, we want all the lead suspended in the motor oil so we can drain it out with the oil at scheduled changes, or sooner.  I usually change sooner.

 

 If lead collects in the bottom of the oil tank, it is also collecting in other parts and pockets of the engine.  In extreme conditions lead can block oil galleries and cause abnormal wear on the engine.

 

 Sludge in an engine is not lead contamination.  I don't have any engines with sludge, except my old antique tractors that were run on nondetergent oil many years ago.  Some of them have an inch or two of sludge on the bottom of the oil pan.  I run Shell Rotella organic oil in everything I have except the 912, ATV, and dirt bike.  These three run on Rotella Synthetic. All my engines are spotless inside except the old tractors, but they dump tons of crap out of them every oil change.  The Rotella is working on years of accumulation.

  

 Recently opened up my little Kubota B6100 engine that is pushing 30 years old.  Operated on Rotella, it was clean as a whistle.

 

 For Tony Oldman:  The Rotella hasn't increased leakage or oil burning on any of the old tractors.

 

 Organic oil suspends lead better than synthetic oil.  The reason Rotax recommend semi-synthetic blend when operating on 100LL is to suspend lead and do a better job at the 912's higher operating temps.

 

 I have operated my 912 on a 50/50 blend of Rotella and 100LL.  Results were no better, if not as good as the results I discovered on this last flight of 60 hours and 300 gals of 100LL.  I was pleasantly surprised at how little lead remained in the bottom of the oil tank.  Only a trace.

  

 We have to remember that this test was conducted under long cross country flight conditions, a lot of flight time in a short number of days.  Legs were generally two hours length, more or less.  These conditions are quite different from local flying.  I use mogas flying locally, but don't do much local flying any more.

  

 I'll continue to run the 912 on Rotella Syn and see what happens.

 

 john h

 mkIII 

 

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 [b]

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 5:07 am Post subject: Shell Rotella Full Synthetic

I do not want to wear the engine in my car that has 50,000 miles on it any 

more than I want to wear out a new engine.  ALL my engines get synthetic 

oil, new or used.

 	  Quote: 	
		  

 Mike


	




Mike B:



Organic oil has its place.  My 1992 Dodge Cummins with 356,000+ miles 

pulling a 30' 5th wheel has survived on Shell Rotella dino oil.



Primary reason for running full syn in my 912 is the high operating temps.



john h

mkIII

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 5:17 am Post subject: Shell Rotella Full Synthetic

Rick G:

  

 I'm also a grad of Eric's 912 course, three times  to be exact.

  

 I remember finding lead in the gear box last time I  pulled it, two years ago.  Going to pull it again real soon to reseal  it.  Will be a good time to check on lead accumulation then.  Also  found a lot of lead around the oil pump shaft.

  

 Again, I am only going by what I can see during oil  change.  No measurements except my own visual perception.  Used to get  a fair amount of dark grey ugly stuff in the bottom of the oil tank.  Last  change was a slight amount of off white material.  Lots of difference to  me.

  

 Again, not trying to convince anyone to use Rotella  Syn.  Most especially convince anyone to not follow Rotax instructions for  operation of their 912.  Strictly sharing what I am doing.

  

 john h

 mkIII

  

  

 [quote]    

John, I don't have a dog in this    fight and can only pass along what Eric Tucker told the class at Lockwood.    Semi synthetic does a better job of keeping the lead from packing in the    gearbox of the 912. It's particularly important on the 912S with the 30 degree    spacing of the drive dogs. Even with semi synthetic Rotax recommends pulling    the gearbox at 600 hours to inspect for lead packing. Should be simple to make    a "degree wheel" to check the 30 degree spacing while you're checking drive    friction torque per SI-06-1997 Rev 1. Like I said, just passing along what I    learned in class.   



   Rick

 

[b]

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

slyck(at)frontiernet.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 5:32 am Post subject: Shell Rotella Full Synthetic

John, what national chains carry that oil?BB



On 7, Jul 2009, at 9:14 AM, John Hauck wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  Rick G:

 

I'm also a grad of Eric's 912 course, three times to be exact.

 

I remember finding lead in the gear box last time I pulled it, two years ago.  Going to pull it again real soon to reseal it.  Will be a good time to check on lead accumulation then.  Also found a lot of lead around the oil pump shaft.

 

Again, I am only going by what I can see during oil change.  No measurements except my own visual perception.  Used to get a fair amount of dark grey ugly stuff in the bottom of the oil tank.  Last change was a slight amount of off white material.  Lots of difference to me.

 

Again, not trying to convince anyone to use Rotella Syn.  Most especially convince anyone to not follow Rotax instructions for operation of their 912.  Strictly sharing what I am doing.

 

john h

mkIII

 

 

 	  Quote: 	
		   

John, I don't have a dog in this fight and can only pass along what Eric Tucker told the class at Lockwood. Semi synthetic does a better job of keeping the lead from packing in the gearbox of the 912. It's particularly important on the 912S with the 30 degree spacing of the drive dogs. Even with semi synthetic Rotax recommends pulling the gearbox at 600 hours to inspect for lead packing. Should be simple to make a "degree wheel" to check the 30 degree spacing while you're checking drive friction torque per SI-06-1997 Rev 1. Like I said, just passing along what I learned in class.



Rick

 

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 [quote][b]

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 5:51 am Post subject: Shell Rotella Full Synthetic

Bob B:

  

 Walmart has it for 19.00 a gal.

  

 Another advantage on long cross country  flights, I can get the Fram TG3614 oil filter and Shell Rotella Syn at  Wally World, or any of the major auto parts houses.

  

 john h

 mkIII 

  	  Quote: 	
		  John,    what national chains carry that oil?   BB

    

	
   [quote][b]

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John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

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