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vshimsl(at)live.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 15, 2009 4:27 am Post subject: D.A.R question about fuse access

In planning the layout of your electrical system C I would suggest you place your fuse blocks where you can answer 'yes' to the following question from a D.A.R:



"Are you able to change fuses for critical instruments in flight?"  (or something similar)



Fortunately one of my fuse blocks C the one with my critical instruments C was within reach (under the panel) while in flight. Changing them in flight would be painful but possible.



Before y'all blast off C realize the D.A.R is inspecting your airplane to see if it complies with Federal Regulations. If he asks you a question it is because he believes he is required to. 



And regardless our collective thoughts and feelings about the question C it is being asked.



I have been on this list for years so I guess I should have anticipated this C but I have to admit the question caught me by surprise. I relay this so you are not.



Regards C

Vince_Himsl

RV8 N8432 Flying (10hours) 

Lauren found her dream laptop.  Find the PC that’s right for you.  [quote][b]

mprather(at)spro.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 15, 2009 5:41 am Post subject: D.A.R question about fuse access

Why did you design the airplane with any critical instruments?  Good panel

design dictates that there aren't any.



It's a trick question..  Most certified single engine airplanes don't have

a backup vacuum source.  Nor a backup electrical system.



An EFIS, a separate turn indicator, plus a (at least one of these having

internal/backup/battery power) GPS provide as much (more) useful,

overlapping information so that if any one item fails, you can still

maintain control of the airplane.



Changing fuses while in flight instead of maintaining positive control of

the airplane sounds dangerous.

Matt-



 	  Quote: 	
		  

 In planning the layout of your electrical system, I would suggest you

 place your fuse blocks where you can answer 'yes' to the following

 question from a D.A.R:



 "Are you able to change fuses for critical instruments in flight?"  (or

 something similar)



 Fortunately one of my fuse blocks, the one with my critical instruments,

 was within reach (under the panel) while in flight. Changing them in

 flight would be painful but possible.



 Before y'all blast off, realize the D.A.R is inspecting your airplane to

 see if it complies with Federal Regulations. If he asks you a question it

 is because he believes he is required to.



 And regardless our collective thoughts and feelings about the question, it

 is being asked.



 I have been on this list for years so I guess I should have anticipated

 this, but I have to admit the question caught me by surprise. I relay this

 so you are not.



 Regards,

 Vince_Himsl

 RV8 N8432 Flying (10hours)



 _________________________________________________________________

 Lauren found her dream laptop. Find the PC that’s right for you.

 http://www.microsoft.com/windows/choosepc/?ocid=ftp_val_wl_290

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 15, 2009 6:52 am Post subject: D.A.R question about fuse access

At 07:25 AM 7/15/2009, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  In planning the layout of your electrical system, I would suggest you place your fuse blocks where you can answer 'yes' to the following question from a D.A.R:



 "Are you able to change fuses for critical instruments in flight?"  (or something similar) 	


   This is a recurring concern that is lifted from

   the FARS. In 99% of the cases where "critical"

   is used in Part 23/25 it's referring to exploring

   the limits of some performance characteristics

   like load limits, single-engine handling qualities

   in a twin engine airplane, c.g. limits, etc. etc.



   In terms of criticality of electro-whizzies, the

   FARS are not enlightening. I suggest this is because

   while things like wing spars, engines and unstable

   aerodynamics can get you killed, the manner in which

   electrics affect the outcome of flight varies widely

   based on mission, weather and pilot skills. The DAY

   VFR J-3 has no critical electrics . . . in fact no

   electrics at all. The LAIV-P that routinely bores

   holes in crummy weather, at night and over mountains

   is entirely another matter.



   To begin, YOU need to assess criticality

   of any particular piece of hardware based on how

   YOU are going to use the airplane. Second, be

   aware that there are many ways that piece of

   equipment can quit working that DO NOT pop fuses

   or breakers. The simple logic behind this assertion

   suggests that spending any time locating fuses

   for easy replacement adds no value to the finished

   product. Finally, launching into the blue with

   a willingness to become a systems failure diagnostician

   and repair technician during a time when you really

   NEED some particular piece of stuff to be working

   comes with a high order of risk.



   The obvious solution is to design the system for

   FAILURE TOLERANCE . . . i.e. no matter what

   circumstances for which you plan to use the airplane,

   no single piece of necessary equipment is not

   backed up, i.e. your airplane has no critical

   systems.

   



  	  Quote: 	
		  Fortunately one of my fuse blocks, the one with my critical instruments, was within reach (under the panel) while in flight. Changing them in flight would be painful but possible. 	


    The best fix for this is move it where you

    CAN'T reach it. The tendency to think in terms

    of in-flight fuse replacement goes away and

    thinking about failure tolerance replaces it.

    . . . A good thing.



  	  Quote: 	
		  Before y'all blast off, realize the D.A.R is inspecting your airplane to see if it complies with Federal Regulations. If he asks you a question it is because he believes he is required to. 	


    If your talking about an owner built and maintained

    airplane, there are no regulations that affect

    configuration of the project. The only regulations

    that apply to OBAM aircraft are OPERATIONAL concerns

    rightfully levied because you must play

    in the same sandbox with the big guys. While

    operating in that environment, it should be 

    transparent to everyone else that you're in an

    OBAM aircraft. You're behaviors and capabilities

    need to be the same as everyone else while 

    seamlessly sharing the airspace.  



 

  	  Quote: 	
		  And regardless our collective thoughts and feelings about the question, it is being asked.

 

 I have been on this list for years so I guess I should have anticipated this, but I have to admit the question caught me by surprise. I relay this so you are not. 	


    The answer for anyone who might exercise a

    regulatory authority over your project is to

    explain why none of the equipment items in your

    airplane are ever "critical" to continued

    flight or comfortable termination of flight.

    This might be because for every situation in which

    you use the airplane, it matters not if ANY electrical

    item on the panel is working. Better yet, it

    might be the case because you have a plan-b in

    the hip pocket to deal with any failure of necessary

    equipment.



    Think of it like this: I've never owned an 

    airplane with an electrical system in it (Our

    J-3 at 1K1 was not so blessed). Every time

    I go fly, it's in a rented airplane. As I walk

    up to that airplane, should I be ruminating on

    service history for the alternator? Should I

    check the logs for service difficulties? Do

    I want to check the warranty date sticker on

    the battery?  With a rented airplane, there are

    MANY issues that are out of my direct supervision

    and control. THIS is why I have to rely on the

    integrity and skill of the airplane's owner

    to keep things up to snuff under the FARS. At

    the same time, I always fly with this stuff

    in my flight bag:



  http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Misc/Vacination_for_Dark_Panel_Syndrom.pdf 



    So my personal assessment of criticality combined

    with the manner in which I use airplanes allows

    me to launch without concern for ANYTHING working

    on the panel. It's my plan-B, plan-C, etc to

    comfortably terminate the flight at airport of

    intended destination irrespective of

    whether or not the master switch is even turned

    on. I don't care if it's a C150 or an A36. I'm

    comfortable with NOT knowing if the electrical

    systems is 100% to my satisfaction.



    The mind set you need to adopt when dealing with

    the "learned elite" of aviation is NOT to argue

    with the applicability of any particular directives

    handed down from on high. Smile and explain that

    you've carefully thought through your system

    configuration. It's designed with your skill 

    set and mission requirements in mind such that

    no single piece of equipment is "critical". All

    installed electro-whizzies are either (1) not necessary

    for comfortable termination of any anticipated flight

    or (2) backed up with totally independent capabilities.

    If YOU understand what you've achieved based on your

    planning and workmanship, then explaining it to

    a skeptical/un-informed inquisitor is easier.



    It's your confidence built upon understanding and

    planning that drives risk down for YOUR use of THAT

    airplane . . . NOT mindless adherence to vague, broad

    brush directives from a policy and procedures manual

    that doesn't apply to you anyhow.



    See chapter 17 of the 'Connection and any number of

    fuse/breaker/failure-tolerance discussions on the

    List archives and on  http://aeroelectric.com. 

    Understanding starts there. Confidence will follow.



    Bob . . .    [quote][b]

longg(at)pjm.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 15, 2009 7:14 am Post subject: D.A.R question about fuse access

Matt,



Ok, I have 3 EFIS displays, two alternators, two batteries & two

internal batteries within the EFIS's, a drop down panel to access all

fuses (within easy reach of the pilot) and a compliment of spare LED

fuses. I'm thinking of adding a PEZ like dispenser for fuses below my

seat with lighted push buttons with numbers so I can pop them on demand

like a soda machine.



So how should I respond to the DAR?



I totally agree, with one caveat - if you need to change fuses in

flight, be sure you have the autopilot turned on with the traffic alerts

turned on. If you're flying IFR you already have someone watching your

back for the 1 minute it takes. If you can't find the problem in 1

minute and it's not critical, fix it on the ground. Better yet, fly with

a buddy and make him/her perform the swap.



Glenn



--

Bret Smith

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 178
Location: Mineral Bluff, GA

Posted: Wed Jul 15, 2009 7:39 am Post subject: D.A.R question about fuse access

Well said!

  

 Bret Smith

 do not archive

 [quote]   ---

_________________
Bret Smith
RV-9A (Emp)

mprather(at)spro.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 15, 2009 7:59 am Post subject: D.A.R question about fuse access

Depending on how the circuits are designed, it sounds like you're set for

most ops..



I like the AP idea.  Arguably, an AP should be on any airplane used for

IFR.  They are relatively cheap nowadays.  What's the procedure if you

suspect the fuse for the AP blew?



What happens if you accidentally pull the wrong fuse?  Do you lose another

piece of 'critical equipment'?

Matt-



[quote] 



 Matt,



 Ok, I have 3 EFIS displays, two alternators, two batteries & two

 internal batteries within the EFIS's, a drop down panel to access all

 fuses (within easy reach of the pilot) and a compliment of spare LED

 fuses. I'm thinking of adding a PEZ like dispenser for fuses below my

 seat with lighted push buttons with numbers so I can pop them on demand

 like a soda machine.



 So how should I respond to the DAR?



 I totally agree, with one caveat - if you need to change fuses in

 flight, be sure you have the autopilot turned on with the traffic alerts

 turned on. If you're flying IFR you already have someone watching your

 back for the 1 minute it takes. If you can't find the problem in 1

 minute and it's not critical, fix it on the ground. Better yet, fly with

 a buddy and make him/her perform the swap.



 Glenn



 --

Bob Collins

Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 470
Location: St. Paul, Minnesota

Posted: Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:13 am Post subject: D.A.R question about fuse access

I wonder how a DAR would look upon Vertical Power. No  fuses. You have a control box in the panel that you can reset a "failed"  circuit, but that's it.  There's no ability to "change fuses in  flight".



   From:  owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert  L. Nuckolls, III

Sent: Wednesday, July 15, 2009 9:51 AM

To:  aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: D.A.R  question about fuse access

 

At 07:25 AM 7/15/2009, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  In planning the layout of your    electrical system, I would suggest you place your fuse blocks where you can    answer 'yes' to the following question from a D.A.R:



"Are you able to    change fuses for critical instruments in flight?"  (or something    similar) 	


  This is a recurring concern that is lifted  from

  the FARS. In 99% of the cases where "critical"

  is used  in Part 23/25 it's referring to exploring

  the limits of some  performance characteristics

  like load limits, single-engine handling  qualities

  in a twin engine airplane, c.g. limits, etc.  etc.



  In terms of criticality of electro-whizzies, the

   FARS are not enlightening. I suggest this is because

  while things like  wing spars, engines and unstable

  aerodynamics can get you killed, the  manner in which

  electrics affect the outcome of flight varies  widely

  based on mission, weather and pilot skills. The DAY

   VFR J-3 has no critical electrics . . . in fact no

  electrics at all.  The LAIV-P that routinely bores

  holes in crummy weather, at night and  over mountains

  is entirely another matter.



  To begin, YOU  need to assess criticality

  of any particular piece of hardware based  on how

  YOU are going to use the airplane. Second, be

  aware  that there are many ways that piece of

  equipment can quit working that  DO NOT pop fuses

  or breakers. The simple logic behind this  assertion

  suggests that spending any time locating fuses

  for  easy replacement adds no value to the finished

  product. Finally,  launching into the blue with

  a willingness to become a systems failure  diagnostician

  and repair technician during a time when you  really

  NEED some particular piece of stuff to be working

   comes with a high order of risk.



  The obvious solution is to design  the system for

  FAILURE TOLERANCE . . . i.e. no matter what

   circumstances for which you plan to use the airplane,

  no single piece  of necessary equipment is not

  backed up, i.e. your airplane has no  critical

  systems.

  



  	  Quote: 	
		  Fortunately one of my fuse blocks,    the one with my critical instruments, was within reach (under the panel) while    in flight. Changing them in flight would be painful but  possible. 	


   The best fix for this is move it where  you

   CAN'T reach it. The tendency to think in  terms

   of in-flight fuse replacement goes away  and

   thinking about failure tolerance replaces  it.

   . . . A good thing.



  	  Quote: 	
		  Before y'all blast off, realize the    D.A.R is inspecting your airplane to see if it complies with Federal    Regulations. If he asks you a question it is because he believes he is    required to. 	


   If your talking about an owner built  and maintained

   airplane, there are no regulations that  affect

   configuration of the project. The only  regulations

   that apply to OBAM aircraft are OPERATIONAL  concerns

   rightfully levied because you must play

    in the same sandbox with the big guys. While

   operating in that  environment, it should be 

   transparent to everyone else that  you're in an

   OBAM aircraft. You're behaviors and  capabilities

   need to be the same as everyone else while  

   seamlessly sharing the airspace.  

  	  Quote: 	
		  And regardless our collective    thoughts and feelings about the question, it is being asked.



I have    been on this list for years so I guess I should have anticipated this, but I    have to admit the question caught me by surprise. I relay this so you are  not. 	


   The answer for anyone who might exercise  a

   regulatory authority over your project is to

    explain why none of the equipment items in your

   airplane are  ever "critical" to continued

   flight or comfortable termination  of flight.

   This might be because for every situation in  which

   you use the airplane, it matters not if ANY  electrical

   item on the panel is working. Better yet,  it

   might be the case because you have a plan-b  in

   the hip pocket to deal with any failure of  necessary

   equipment.



   Think of it like this:  I've never owned an 

   airplane with an electrical system in it  (Our

   J-3 at 1K1 was not so blessed). Every time

    I go fly, it's in a rented airplane. As I walk

   up to that  airplane, should I be ruminating on

   service history for the  alternator? Should I

   check the logs for service difficulties?  Do

   I want to check the warranty date sticker on

    the battery?  With a rented airplane, there are

   MANY issues  that are out of my direct supervision

   and control. THIS is why I  have to rely on the

   integrity and skill of the airplane's  owner

   to keep things up to snuff under the FARS.  At

   the same time, I always fly with this stuff

    in my flight bag:



http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Misc/Vacination_for_Dark_Panel_Syndrom.pdf  



   So my personal assessment of criticality  combined

   with the manner in which I use airplanes  allows

   me to launch without concern for ANYTHING  working

   on the panel. It's my plan-B, plan-C, etc  to

   comfortably terminate the flight at airport  of

   intended destination irrespective of

   whether  or not the master switch is even turned

   on. I don't care if it's  a C150 or an A36. I'm

   comfortable with NOT knowing if the  electrical

   systems is 100% to my  satisfaction.



   The mind set you need to adopt when dealing  with

   the "learned elite" of aviation is NOT to  argue

   with the applicability of any particular  directives

   handed down from on high. Smile and explain  that

   you've carefully thought through your  system

   configuration. It's designed with your skill  

   set and mission requirements in mind such that

    no single piece of equipment is "critical". All

   installed  electro-whizzies are either (1) not necessary

   for comfortable  termination of any anticipated flight

   or (2) backed up with  totally independent capabilities.

   If YOU understand what you've  achieved based on your

   planning and workmanship, then explaining  it to

   a skeptical/un-informed inquisitor is  easier.



   It's your confidence built upon understanding  and

   planning that drives risk down for YOUR use of  THAT

   airplane . . . NOT mindless adherence to vague,  broad

   brush directives from a policy and procedures  manual

   that doesn't apply to you anyhow.



   See  chapter 17 of the 'Connection and any number of

    fuse/breaker/failure-tolerance discussions on the

   List archives  and on http://aeroelectric.com. 

   Understanding  starts there. Confidence will follow.



   Bob . . . [quote]



href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List

href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com

href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c

[b]

_________________
Bob Collins
St. Paul, Minn.
Letters from Flyover Country
http://rvnewsletter.blogspot.com/

longg(at)pjm.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:56 am Post subject: D.A.R question about fuse access

Matt,



However silly it may appear I like the led approach to avoid choosing an

un-blown/wrong fuse. On my fuse buses, each fuse is additionally labeled

to assist in locating the right fuse. To me pulling the wrong fuse is no

worse than pulling a breaker accidentally. Turn off the affected device,

plug the fuse back in and re-start the device - don't do that again. I

have dual ignition with one side slaved to the second battery. The

engine will keep running no matter what breaker is pulled.



Since my AP is internal to the Dynon and runs on the Dynon network, it

will fly on battery for about an hour, thus giving me enough warning to

get down. If one has lots of blown fuses and has trouble picking the

right one, you either have a bigger issue or you're just really ignorant

about maintenance. Assuming only one is blown, let's fix it and maybe

avoid lots of headaches.



The nice thing about having internal batteries within the EFIS is that

nothing changes while you scurry to either change the fuse or land and

repair - even for the AP. If I couldn't isolate the problem by replacing

the fuse - I'd just land. Kind-o-like the ole' circuit breaker theory -

if it blows once you reset it. If it blows twice, you leave it.



Glenn



--

mprather(at)spro.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 15, 2009 10:45 am Post subject: D.A.R question about fuse access

Certainly there are situations where I might mess around with diagnostics

while in flight.  Many a flight there's nothing better to do besides drone

on.  Especially if it's severe-clear for the length of the mission.  If

it's dark and/or stormy, I'd be much more reluctant to do anything besides

hunker down and continue the flight with what's left.  In my limited

experience on the needles, distraction is something I don't need..



Out of curiosity, is the AP servo powered by the instrument or does it

have a separate power source?

Matt-



[quote] 



 Matt,



 However silly it may appear I like the led approach to avoid choosing an

 un-blown/wrong fuse. On my fuse buses, each fuse is additionally labeled

 to assist in locating the right fuse. To me pulling the wrong fuse is no

 worse than pulling a breaker accidentally. Turn off the affected device,

 plug the fuse back in and re-start the device - don't do that again. I

 have dual ignition with one side slaved to the second battery. The

 engine will keep running no matter what breaker is pulled.



 Since my AP is internal to the Dynon and runs on the Dynon network, it

 will fly on battery for about an hour, thus giving me enough warning to

 get down. If one has lots of blown fuses and has trouble picking the

 right one, you either have a bigger issue or you're just really ignorant

 about maintenance. Assuming only one is blown, let's fix it and maybe

 avoid lots of headaches.



 The nice thing about having internal batteries within the EFIS is that

 nothing changes while you scurry to either change the fuse or land and

 repair - even for the AP. If I couldn't isolate the problem by replacing

 the fuse - I'd just land. Kind-o-like the ole' circuit breaker theory -

 if it blows once you reset it. If it blows twice, you leave it.



 Glenn



 --

sarg314(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 15, 2009 11:22 am Post subject: D.A.R question about fuse access

I'm confused by this thread.Â  Are you telling me that the D.A.R. is going to REQUIRE that my fuse block be accessible in flight? (Mine isn't.) Or are you just telling me I need to have a rap prepared to respond to the question.

 

-- 

Tom Sargent

  [quote][b]

frank.hinde(at)hp.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 15, 2009 11:39 am Post subject: D.A.R question about fuse access

DAR's sometimes have an "its my way or the highway"  approach..But this is very rare.

  

 You just need to tell him there is no one fuse that will  take out your ability to fly or navigate..And you have no intention of changing  fuses in flight.

  

 None of my 3 fuse boxes are accesible and the idea of  changing a fuse while being bounced around in IMC is ludicrous in my  mind.

  

  

 Frank RV7a IFR, elctric fuel pumps only, totally  electrically dependant.

  



   From:  owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of thomas  sargent

Sent: Wednesday, July 15, 2009 12:19 PM

To:  aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: D.A.R  question about fuse access

 



I'm confused by this thread.  Are you telling me that the  D.A.R. is going to REQUIRE that my fuse block be accessible in flight? (Mine  isn't.) Or are you just telling me I need to have a rap prepared to respond to  the question.



-- 

Tom Sargent

[quote]



ist">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List

ics.com

.matronics.com/contribution



[b]

mprather(at)spro.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 15, 2009 12:20 pm Post subject: D.A.R question about fuse access

I like this answer.  I suspect that many DAR's will be happy that you have

a rational answer to such a question - indicating that you have considered

and understand the issues involved.

Regards,



Matt-



 	  Quote: 	
		   DAR's sometimes have an "its my way or the highway" approach..But this is

 very rare.



 You just need to tell him there is no one fuse that will take out your

 ability to fly or navigate..And you have no intention of changing fuses in

 flight.



 None of my 3 fuse boxes are accesible and the idea of changing a fuse

 while being bounced around in IMC is ludicrous in my mind.

 Frank RV7a IFR, elctric fuel pumps only, totally electrically dependant.

 ________________________________

 From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com

 [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of thomas

 sargent

 Sent: Wednesday, July 15, 2009 12:19 PM

 To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: D.A.R question about fuse access

 I'm confused by this thread.  Are you telling me that the D.A.R. is going

 to REQUIRE that my fuse block be accessible in flight? (Mine isn't.) Or

 are you just telling me I need to have a rap prepared to respond to the

 question.

 --

 Tom Sargent

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 15, 2009 12:50 pm Post subject: D.A.R question about fuse access

At 11:39 AM 7/15/2009, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		   I wonder how a DAR would look upon Vertical Power. No fuses. You have a control box in the panel that you can reset a "failed" circuit, but that's it.  There's no ability to "change fuses in flight". 	


   . . . but you can 'reset' a tripped circuit under software

  control.  One of the BIG arguments for breakers over fuses

  was the ease of resetting and low risk for dropping a fuse

  holder's cap . . .



 [img]cid:.0[/img]



 . . . not to mention relief from having to carry

 spare fuses. The advantages are inarguable. Over the past

 20+ years we've developed various tools for fault current

 protection including remotely controlled circuit breakers

 and sundry electronic fault detection and reaction systems.

 The Eclipse 500 had no breakers in the cockpit but pilots

 had access to LOTS of breakers via flat screens and

 software.



 But getting back to simple ideas: Fuses/breakers/other are

 intended to protect the airframe from hard faults that put

 other systems if not the entire airframe at risk. Once

 that fault occurs, the system is out of business. It's

 a good idea to make the event known to the crew . . . but

 resetting is 99.99% never useful or a good idea. It was

 reported that repeated resets of the cabin heater breaker

 on an airplane carrying Ricky Nelson may have figured in

 the fire that brought the airplane down.



 The prudent rule for tripped breakers and fuses (that are

 sized to avoid nuisance trips) is leave them alone until on

 the ground. Should it be that said breaker powers something

 you really need . . . then so much for failure tolerance

 (or perhaps even the decision to launch).



  From my personal sense of elegant solutions, the idea

 that replacing a perfectly good 25 cent fuse with hardware

 that is larger, more expensive, higher parts count, and

 perhaps driven by software does not make the airplane

 cost less, assemble faster or perform better . . .

 nor is it a positive return on investment.



 

        Bob . . .



         ---------------------------------------

        ( . . .  a long habit of not thinking   )

        ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )

        ( appearance of being right . . .       )

        (                                       )

        (                  -Thomas Paine 1776-  )

         ---------------------------------------

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phil(at)petrasoft.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 15, 2009 12:55 pm Post subject: D.A.R question about fuse access

I can't reach any of my fuses in flight.  I did this by design.  I don't want to be tempted to fiddle with them.  There isn't anything in my panel (VFR day/night) that will kill me if it fails, but fiddling with fuses when I should be flying the airplane can kill me.

My DAR didn't ask.  Some might.  Just answer that there isn't any electrical circuit in your airplane that you can't LIVE without. If he/she has a problem with that answer then make sure and warn your fellow builders about that DAR so that he/she may be avoided.



 Phil Birkelbach

Houston RV7 - 727WB

phil(at)petrasoft.net (phil(at)petrasoft.net)

http://www.myrv7.com/



 



On Jul 15, 2009, at 2:19 PM, thomas sargent wrote:

[quote]

I'm confused by this thread.  Are you telling me that the D.A.R. is going to REQUIRE that my fuse block be accessible in flight? (Mine isn't.) Or are you just telling me I need to have a rap prepared to respond to the question.

 

-- 

Tom Sargent

  	  Quote: 	
		  

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href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com

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[b]

longg(at)pjm.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 15, 2009 1:42 pm Post subject: D.A.R question about fuse access

Tom,  

   

Absolutely not. You will find 100’s of units with fuse blocks in very un-reachable positions. Do a little searching on Google. Remember, we are experimental – use poly fuses, fuse links or whatever you like. What folks are saying is that should any individual component be lost, be sure you can do without it (yes, Mr./Ms. DAR I can do without that). Period. Most prefer not trying to fix the broken thingy in flight, but rather get it down and tend to it on the ground. As Bob indicated failed items most often have nothing to do with the fuse/breaker.   

   

Stick and rudder folks know you really only need an airspeed indicator to get down safely in VFR. Make it a good one.  

   

Fuses are great and certainly reduce the owner’s cost. I do like having breakers on my alternators to kill them if necessary. There again if the alternator breaker is popping for any reason than the occasional power surge, just leave it out and get down until fixed.  

   

Glenn  

   

   

   

   

       

From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Phil Birkelbach

 Sent: Wednesday, July 15, 2009 4:54 PM

 To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: D.A.R question about fuse access  

  

  

     

I can't reach any of my fuses in flight.  I did this by design.  I don't want to be tempted to fiddle with them.  There isn't anything in my panel (VFR day/night) that will kill me if it fails, but fiddling with fuses when I should be flying the airplane can kill me.  

    

   

    

My DAR didn't ask.  Some might.  Just answer that there isn't any electrical circuit in your airplane that you can't LIVE without. If he/she has a problem with that answer then make sure and warn your fellow builders about that DAR so that he/she may be avoided.  

  

         

Phil Birkelbach  

    

Houston RV7 - 727WB  

    

phil(at)petrasoft.net (phil(at)petrasoft.net)  

    

http://www.myrv7.com/  

    

   

  

  

   

  

       

On Jul 15, 2009, at 2:19 PM, thomas sargent wrote:  

  



 

   



 I'm confused by this thread.  Are you telling me that the D.A.R. is going to REQUIRE that my fuse block be accessible in flight? (Mine isn't.) Or are you just telling me I need to have a rap prepared to respond to the question.

  

 -- 

 Tom Sargent   	  Quote: 	
		   href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-Listhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.comhref="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution 	


  

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BobsV35B(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 15, 2009 2:41 pm Post subject: D.A.R question about fuse access

Good Evening Glenn,

  

 My primary instructor kept the airspeed covered up most of the time. I  learned to control airspeed via the sound and by the feel of the controls.   

  

 Who needs an airspeed indicator?<G>

  

 I may not be able to hold it dead on a specific number, but I can sure stay  fast enough to avoid a stall and slow enough to get it stopped in a reasonable  distance!

  

 Happy Skies,

  

 Old Bob

  

  In a message dated 7/15/2009 4:43:18 P.M. Central Daylight Time,  longg(at)pjm.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		     

Stick    and rudder folks know you really only need an airspeed indicator to get down    safely in VFR. Make it a good  one. 	


 Can love help you live longer? Find out now.

  [quote][b]

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 7:18 am Post subject: D.A.R question about fuse access

At 05:25 PM 7/15/2009, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		   Good Evening Glenn,

  

 My primary instructor kept the airspeed covered up most of the time. I learned to control airspeed via the sound and by the feel of the controls.  

  

 Who needs an airspeed indicator?<G> 	


   Only those not skilled in doing without them. When I

   checked out new renters in our 150's I used to demonstrate

   that "sticking the upper edge of the cowl on the

   horizon" got you an 80 mph climb. I further demonstrated

   that if the horizon is visible over the nose, you cannot

   be too slow. After that, paying attention to power settings

   pretty much covers the bases for not having an unhappy day

   in the pattern. 



   I found this necessary/useful when new renters were 

   transitioning to an uncontrolled field sharing a 5

   mile radius with 5 other uncontrolled fields. It was

   a good idea to keep your eyes on the surrounding

   environment as opposed to sticking the needles on some

   finely tuned value for speeds and power.



 

 

        Bob . . .



         ---------------------------------------

        ( . . .  a long habit of not thinking   )

        ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )

        ( appearance of being right . . .       )

        (                                       )

        (                  -Thomas Paine 1776-  )

         ---------------------------------------



     [quote][b]

longg(at)pjm.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 9:04 am Post subject: D.A.R question about fuse access

Bob,  

   

Too funny! So true – I have had the same experience in the Pitts – you can feel when it’s right. The Pitts will let you know when it’s not. In a Lanciar, I find it behaves best when flown by the numbers. I should throw in a caveat of “the last standing instrument I’d enjoy having” Remember, flying is easy – the plane will always go where you point it, except when you are too slow. Don’t do that.  

   

Have a great day.  

       

From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III

 Sent: Thursday, July 16, 2009 11:16 AM

 To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: D.A.R question about fuse access  

  

  

   

At 05:25 PM 7/15/2009, you wrote:

 

   

Good Evening Glenn,

  

 My primary instructor kept the airspeed covered up most of the time. I learned to control airspeed via the sound and by the feel of the controls.  

  

 Who needs an airspeed indicator?<G>  



   Only those not skilled in doing without them. When I

   checked out new renters in our 150's I used to demonstrate

   that "sticking the upper edge of the cowl on the

   horizon" got you an 80 mph climb. I further demonstrated

   that if the horizon is visible over the nose, you cannot

   be too slow. After that, paying attention to power settings

   pretty much covers the bases for not having an unhappy day

   in the pattern. 

 

   I found this necessary/useful when new renters were 

   transitioning to an uncontrolled field sharing a 5

   mile radius with 5 other uncontrolled fields. It was

   a good idea to keep your eyes on the surrounding

   environment as opposed to sticking the needles on some

   finely tuned value for speeds and power.

 

 

 

   

       Bob . . .

 

         ---------------------------------------

        ( . . .  a long habit of not thinking   )

        ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )

        ( appearance of being right . . .       )

        (                                       )

        (                  -Thomas Paine 1776-  )

         ---------------------------------------   	  Quote: 	
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echristley(at)nc.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 10:53 am Post subject: D.A.R question about fuse access

Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   At 05:25 PM 7/15/2009, you wrote:

> Good Evening Glenn,

>

> My primary instructor kept the airspeed covered up most of the time. 

> I learned to control airspeed via the sound and by the feel of the 

> controls.

>

> Who needs an airspeed indicator?<G>

   Only those not skilled in doing without them. When I

   checked out new renters in our 150's I used to demonstrate

   that "sticking the upper edge of the cowl on the

   horizon" got you an 80 mph climb. I further demonstrated

   that if the horizon is visible over the nose, you cannot

   be too slow. After that, paying attention to power settings

   pretty much covers the bases for not having an unhappy day

   in the pattern.

That instrument only works for people of the same height.  It has to be 

recalibrated for some of us  8*)

-- 

http://www.ernest.isa-geek.org

longg(at)pjm.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 10:41 am Post subject: D.A.R question about fuse access

Ernest, you are definitely a geek. Why not try an electric engine?



--

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