Matronics Email Lists :: View topic - polycarbonate/gasoline myth buster

Matronics Email Lists
Web Forum Interface to the Matronics Email Lists

Get Email Distribution Too! FAQ Search Memberlist Usergroups Register

Profile Log in to check your private messages Log in

polycarbonate/gasoline myth buster

Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Kolb-List

View previous topic :: View next topic

Author Message

Thom Riddle

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)

Posted: Mon Aug 17, 2009 4:19 pm Post subject: polycarbonate/gasoline myth buster

I may be the only one on this list that DIDN'T know the truth of this and have been laboring under a false myth for a long time.  For years I've heard that gasoline will ruin Lexan (polycarbonate) in short order so we should be careful when fueling around our polycarbonate canopies, doors and windows. 



A couple months ago, I was fueling the RANS before my partner broke it, and spilled a good bit of 87 AKI unleaded gasoline on the polycarbonate windshield. I uttered a couple of expletives and as quickly as possible I cleaned up the mess. Much to my surprise, the fuel had zero affect on the polycarbonate.



I'm looking for a better way to fuel my slingshot now and decided to research the chemical compatibility of various types of tubing and ran across this website...



http://www.coleparmer.com/TechInfo/ChemComp.asp



which enables you to search on various chemicals and materials for their compatibility. It turns out that the myth that I've been hearing and repeating (without evidence to support it) for years is completely false. In fact polycarbonate is rated A-excellent for gasoline.



Perhaps some of you with more and different experience than me already knew this but it was news to me and good news at that.



Learning stuff every day.

_________________
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)

Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
- Anonymous

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Mon Aug 17, 2009 4:40 pm Post subject: polycarbonate/gasoline myth buster

> Perhaps some of you with more and different experience than me already 

knew this but it was news to me and good news at that.

 	  Quote: 	
		  

 Learning stuff every day.



 --------

 Thom Riddle


	




Thom R/Gang:



I am not very well educated in gasoline vs polycarbonate, but have ruined 

some Lexan with spilled and blown gasoline while refueling.



I have never done an actual test, but have accidentally tested.  Some gas 

does and some gas doesn't.



Last time I ruined Lexan was refueling from 5 gal cans in North Pole, AK. 

Switching from one can  to another with my 6' vinyl hose, that was stuck in 

the top of the wing in the fuel filler, I accidentally dropped the other end 

which swung around and slung gas on the left rear quarter window and left 

door.  Promptly attacked the Lexan causing large spider web cracks where it 

made contact.  Quite possibly could have been an additive, like anti icing, 

or something of that nature, that did the damage.  I know that MEK will ruin 

it, as will Super Glue, Loctite blue.  That's is all that I can think of at 

the moment.  Once it is done, it is all over.  Time to replace.



BTW:  It was 91 octane auto fuel that did the job.



There have been other occassions that I can not remember the details.



john h

mkIII

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

ceengland(at)bellsouth.ne
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 17, 2009 5:37 pm Post subject: polycarbonate/gasoline myth buster

Thom Riddle wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 I may be the only one on this list that DIDN'T know the truth of this and have been laboring under a false myth for a long time.  For years I've heard that gasoline will ruin Lexan (polycarbonate) in short order so we should be careful when fueling around our polycarbonate canopies, doors and windows. 



 A couple months ago, I was fueling the RANS before my partner broke it, and spilled a good bit of 87 AKI unleaded gasoline on the polycarbonate windshield. I uttered a couple of expletives and as quickly as possible I cleaned up the mess. Much to my surprise, the fuel had zero affect on the polycarbonate.



 I'm looking for a better way to fuel my slingshot now and decided to research the chemical compatibility of various types of tubing and ran across this website...



 http://www.coleparmer.com/TechInfo/ChemComp.asp



 which enables you to search on various chemicals and materials for their compatibility. It turns out that the myth that I've been hearing and repeating (without evidence to support it) for years is completely false. In fact polycarbonate is rated A-excellent for gasoline.



 Perhaps some of you with more and different experience than me already knew this but it was news to me and good news at that.



 Learning stuff every day.



 --------

 Thom Riddle

 Buffalo, NY

 Kolb Slingshot SS-021

 Jabiru 2200A #1574

 Tennessee Prop 64x34


	


You might want to get a second opinion....

neilsenrm(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 17, 2009 6:26 pm Post subject: polycarbonate/gasoline myth buster

Thom 

  

My fuel filler is in the middle of a top side polycarbonate window of my MKIIIC. I'm on my third window and second side door from spilling auto and 100LL on it. If you don't spill much and you mop it up quickly it may be OK but not allways. Trust me I have been there many times it happens farly quickly. I fill the tanks a bit too fast and they spit back over my windows. Within say 10-20 seconds after the spill there will be spider cracks over a good portion of the window. 

  

Again I might be wrong so get cup or so of fuel and dump it on YOUR polycarbonate and let it set. Tell us know how it turns out. 

  

Rick Neilsen 

Redrive VW powered MKIIIC 



---

Thom Riddle

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)

Posted: Tue Aug 18, 2009 2:39 am Post subject: Re: polycarbonate/gasoline myth buster

John, the website I posted a link to does show some of the other chemicals you mentioned as being bad for polycarbonate but not gasoline, either unleaded or leaded.  I also checked ethanol and it was rated B-good.



Thought I can't see that Cole-Parmer has anything to gain by mis-leading folks, as we all know, just because we see it on a website does not mean it is true, so, I'd say it is time for me to do an experiment. Nothing like empirical evidence to educate and inform.



I still have the windshield that I replaced on our Allegro when it was damaged mechanically (not chemically) and some drop from the sheet I bought to replace it with. According to the Allegro manufacturer the material is polycarbonate with the brand name of Makrolon which is manufactured by Bayer Material Sciences. The sheet I replaced it with was also the same brand of polycarbonate which I purchased from McMaster-Carr.



I plan to test both using 93 AKI auto-gas and also with 100LL. If anyone wants to duplicate this test with a known piece of Lexan (GE product) it would be educational to us all.



My plan is to cut narrow strips of each and soak one end in each of the fuels overnight or longer and photograph them afterwards for all to see.

_________________
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)

Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
- Anonymous

jvanlaak(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 18, 2009 3:10 am Post subject: polycarbonate/gasoline myth buster

Been listening to this with interest.  Years ago I had an RV-3 with a lexan windshield and fuselage gas tank filled just in front of it.  The lexan was maybe 15 years old with lots of microscratches from being cleaned and from the stress of being bent fairly aggressively.  One day I splashed a little autofuel on it and it became almost completely opaque.  I was told of this incompatibility which was certainly demonstrated but also think the age and microcracks contributed to it.  Also, in another project I had used a form of lexan that had a coating on it to prevent scratches.  I suspect that polycarbonate comes in many brands and forms, some with coatings and some without, that may have different susceptibilities to chemicals as well as the age and stress factors.

 

   

 

   

 

 --

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Tue Aug 18, 2009 5:23 am Post subject: polycarbonate/gasoline myth buster

> My plan is to cut narrow strips of each and soak one end in each of the 

fuels overnight or longer and photograph them afterwards for all to see.

 	  Quote: 	
		  

 --------

 Thom Riddle


	




Rather than soaking each test strip overnight in the fuel, test them in a 

similar situation as would be encountered in the real world, a spill, 

splash, wind bown mist, etc.,



Wipe some off immediately, a few minutes, 10 minutes, and on.



In the real world the windshield will not be in a situation that it soaks 

all night in fuel, unless it has an overhead tank that is dripping on it.



My experience with Lexan/polycarbonate damage by fuel, has been random.  The 

case I mentioned from the fuel spill in Alaska is the only one that stands 

out in my memory now.  There were others that are too far gone in the 

recesses of my poor memory.  The spill in Alaska was unknown until I 

discovered the damage later, on down the road.  So that fuel stayed on the 

Lexan until it evavorated.



john h

mkIII

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

williamtsullivan(at)att.n
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 18, 2009 5:38 am Post subject: polycarbonate/gasoline myth buster

Don't ever use silicone spray on polycarbonate.  I tried to waterproof some snowplow light turn signals with it, and we heard a crackling noise.  Shortly after, they fell right off the headlight housing.  I don't know if it was the silicone or the carrier.

  

                                                  Bill Sullivan

                                                  Windsor Locks, Ct.

 [quote][b]

Thom Riddle

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)

Posted: Tue Aug 18, 2009 5:39 am Post subject: Re: polycarbonate/gasoline myth buster

John,



Per your suggestion, I'll do the short term test first. If no obvious damage, then I'll do an overnight soak.



I've been googling this morning and found one site describing an Asian car manufacture's plans of trying polycarbonate as a fuel tank to save weight.  This is getting more interesting the more I dig. 



I hope someone with Lexan or another brand of polycarbonate other than Makrolon which is what I have, will try this test too. Just be certain that it is not acrylic or other clear plastic.

_________________
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)

Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
- Anonymous

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Tue Aug 18, 2009 5:48 am Post subject: polycarbonate/gasoline myth buster

> I hope someone with Lexan or another brand of polycarbonate other than 

Makrolon which is what I have, will try this test too. Just be certain that 

it is not acrylic or other clear plastic.

 	  Quote: 	
		  

 --------

 Thom Riddle


	




Acrylic is easy to test.  Bend it and it will break.  It is extremely 

brittle.



I unknowingly made a FS windshield out of acrylic someone gave me, thinking 

it was Lexan.  I broke in the air.  Big piece hit the leading edge of the 

wing.  Thus my experience with the Old Kolb Co's leading edge dent remover.



john h

mkIII

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

Thom Riddle

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)

Posted: Tue Aug 18, 2009 6:13 am Post subject: Re: polycarbonate/gasoline myth buster

I just found this abstract of a study done on the effects of gasoline(s) on various plastics. Note in particular the last statement in the abstract. Very interesting!



 Article

Stress cracking of plastics by gasoline and gasoline components

M. G. Wyzgoski, C. H. M. Jacques

Polymers Department, General Motors Research Laboratories, Warren, Michigan 48090

ABSTRACT

The susceptibility of polycarbonate, polymethyl methacrylate, and cellulose acetate butyrate to gasoline-induced stress cracking was evaluated by measuring the critical strains of specimens exposed to a variety of commercial gasolines and gasoline components. Cellulose acetate butyrate exhibited the greatest resistance to gasoline followed by polymethyl methacrylate and polycarbonate. Stress cracking was a complex function of gasoline composition. Measured critical strains generally decreased and the severity of cracking of molded parts generally increased as the total aromatic content of the gasolines increased. However, a significant difference in critical strains was observed between the individual aliphatic components of gasoline. No correlation was observed between critical strain and gasoline type, i.e., premium, regular, or unleaded. The effect of time of exposure was examined, and it was observed that for some binary mixtures splashing caused much more severe cracking than continuous exposure.

_________________
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)

Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
- Anonymous

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Tue Aug 18, 2009 6:28 am Post subject: polycarbonate/gasoline myth buster

Stress cracking was a complex function of gasoline composition. Measured 

critical strains generally decreased and the severity of cracking of molded 

parts generally increased as the total aromatic content of the gasolines 

increased.



However, a significant difference in critical strains was observed between 

the individual aliphatic components of gasoline.



No correlation was observed between critical strain and gasoline type, i.e., 

premium, regular, or unleaded.



The effect of time of exposure was examined, and it was observed that for 

some binary mixtures splashing caused much more severe crackin!

 	  Quote: 	
		   g than continuous exposure.



 --------

 Thom Riddle


	




Sorta goes along with what I have experienced.



Some do and some don't, based on additives, and amounts.



Splashing caused more severe cracking.



I know it is heart breaking to install new Lexan, make a little mistake, and 

watch the money and work disappear in a flash.



john h

mkIII

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

Fran Losey

Joined: 21 Feb 2009
Posts: 61
Location: Boca Raton, FL

Posted: Tue Aug 18, 2009 9:37 am Post subject: polycarbonate/gasoline myth buster

FYI I ran across this if it can be of value:



http://plastics.inwiki.org/Polycarbonate

Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry



--

_________________
Fran Losey
N62FL (reserved)

loseyf@comcast.net

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Tue Aug 18, 2009 10:33 am Post subject: Re: polycarbonate/gasoline myth buster

 	  Thom Riddle wrote: 	
		   



It turns out that the myth that I've been hearing and repeating (without evidence to support it) for years is completely false. In fact polycarbonate is rated A-excellent for gasoline.



Perhaps some of you with more and different experience than me already knew this but it was news to me and good news at that.



Learning stuff every day. 	




Don't learn to fast Thom, gasoline will cloud, crack lexan VERY quickly.  I have dripped non-ethanol gasoline on my lexan many times only to have to spend a bunch of time polishing, not cleaning, but actually polishing out the horrible milky while cloud it leaves behind.   A couple weeks ago, I splashed non-ethanol gasoline on my lexan side window, and within 20 seconds, there were hundreds of small cracks in the lexan window, totally ruined it.   



Just be thankful that for whatever reason you got lucky when you spilled your gas, but that wont happen every time.  Theory is one thing, but results trump theory every time !



Mike

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

Dana

Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 1047
Location: Connecticut, USA

Posted: Tue Aug 18, 2009 7:10 pm Post subject: polycarbonate/gasoline myth buster

At 08:19 PM 8/17/2009, Thom Riddle wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  For years I've heard that gasoline will ruin Lexan (polycarbonate) in 

short order...


	


I've heard both (that it's OK and that it's not OK).  Even the chemical 

compatibility charts differ on whether it's OK.  A few months ago I decided 

to make my own fuel strainer, and wanting a clear bowl, I made it out of 

polycarbonate (supplier unknown; it was a block I scrounged at work):

<http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v486/flyparafan/Kolb/?action=view&current=gascolator.jpg>

I left it full of gas/oil mix (auto gas with 10% ethanol) for a week, no 

change... then mounted it on my plane, where it's performed fine ever since.



It has two inlets (one for each tank), a quick drain, and a coarse 

stainless screen in the outlet feeding the main inline filter (the glass 

tube kind).



-Dana



--

  Alpha test version: too buggy to release.    Beta test version: still too 

buggy to release.    Release 1.0: alternate pronounciation of beta test version.

Display posts from previous:

	Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Kolb-List	All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Page 1 of 1

Jump to:

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum