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Flying over water

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recapen(at)earthlink.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2009 5:41 am Post subject: Flying over water

Living and flying around the DelMarVa peninsula provides great scenery - lots of farms, rivers, and places to go.



I'm concerned that there is a lot of water here - with the Chesapeake and Delaware bays nearby...and let's not forget the Atlantic Ocean.



I'm thinking that I should be carrying some sort of water survival gear for my trips across the bay's at least.



Does anyone know what the specific rules are?  I don't have my FAR/AIM with me - and I am still flying off my phase I hours.



The Cape May County airport (WWD) is within my 50nm circle and I could climb to altitude to ensure a safe glide distance to either side of the bay...but I would really like to know the right way.....



Eventually, I'll be heading north to visit family in New England and there'll be some water to cross on the way there - regardless of the chosen route.



So...what are the rules?



And....what is everyone really doing?



Thanks,

Ralph

RV6A N822AR (at) N06 24.9 hrs

dennis.glaeser(at)hp.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2009 7:47 am Post subject: Flying over water

For Part 91 operations (non-commercial), there are no rules.  You're free to do whatever 'floats your boat' (couldn't help myself  

Commercial operations are required to have life vests for each person, a raft (big enough for everyone) and a pyrotechnic signal device (IIRC - haven't reviewed the regs lately)



I fly over water on trips from SE MI to Ohio over Lake Erie, and over Lake Michigan to OSH.

Whenever possible, I choose routes and altitudes that keep me, for the most part, within gliding distance of shore, and I'm always in contact with ATC or FSS in some manner (IFR, flight following, ...)

I usually borrow life vests from a buddy who has a sea plane.



You can get decent light weight life vests and signaling devices at a boating store.  It's basically like insurance, better to have it and do whatever you can to never need it.  But the bottom line is that you are free to do whatever meets your comfort level.



Dennis Glaeser

RV-7A N751DG (at) 57D - 150 hrs



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From:	Ralph E. Capen 

Living and flying around the DelMarVa peninsula provides great scenery - lots of

farms, rivers, and places to go.



I'm concerned that there is a lot of water here - with the Chesapeake and Delaware

bays nearby...and let's not forget the Atlantic Ocean.



I'm thinking that I should be carrying some sort of water survival gear for my

trips across the bay's at least.



Does anyone know what the specific rules are?  I don't have my FAR/AIM with me

- and I am still flying off my phase I hours.



The Cape May County airport (WWD) is within my 50nm circle and I could climb to

altitude to ensure a safe glide distance to either side of the bay...but I would

really like to know the right way.....



Eventually, I'll be heading north to visit family in New England and there'll be

some water to cross on the way there - regardless of the chosen route.



So...what are the rules?



And....what is everyone really doing?



Thanks,

Ralph

RV6A N822AR (at) N06 24.9 hrs

krhooper(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2009 8:16 am Post subject: Flying over water

You might read FAR 91.509

  

 Randy Hooper

 On Thu, Aug 27, 2009 at 10:31 AM, GLAESER, DENNIS <dennis.glaeser(at)hp.com (dennis.glaeser(at)hp.com)> wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  --> RV-List message posted by: "GLAESER, DENNIS" <dennis.glaeser(at)hp.com (dennis.glaeser(at)hp.com)>

 

For Part 91 operations (non-commercial), there are no rules.  You're free to do whatever 'floats your boat' (couldn't help myself 

Commercial operations are required to have life vests for each person, a raft (big enough for everyone) and a pyrotechnic signal device (IIRC - haven't reviewed the regs lately)

 

I fly over water on trips from SE MI to Ohio over Lake Erie, and over Lake Michigan to OSH.

Whenever possible, I choose routes and altitudes that keep me, for the most part, within gliding distance of shore, and I'm always in contact with ATC or FSS in some manner (IFR, flight following, ..)

 I usually borrow life vests from a buddy who has a sea plane.



You can get decent light weight life vests and signaling devices at a boating store.  It's basically like insurance, better to have it and do whatever you can to never need it.  But the bottom line is that you are free to do whatever meets your comfort level.

 

Dennis Glaeser

RV-7A N751DG (at) 57D - 150 hrs



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From:   Ralph E. Capen

Living and flying around the DelMarVa peninsula provides great scenery - lots of

 farms, rivers, and places to go.



I'm concerned that there is a lot of water here - with the Chesapeake and Delaware

bays nearby...and let's not forget the Atlantic Ocean.



I'm thinking that I should be carrying some sort of water survival gear for my

 trips across the bay's at least.



Does anyone know what the specific rules are?  I don't have my FAR/AIM with me

- and I am still flying off my phase I hours.



The Cape May County airport (WWD) is within my 50nm circle and I could climb to

 altitude to ensure a safe glide distance to either side of the bay...but I would

really like to know the right way.....



Eventually, I'll be heading north to visit family in New England and there'll be

 some water to cross on the way there - regardless of the chosen route.



So...what are the rules?



And....what is everyone really doing?http://ww===

  http://forums.mle, List Admin.

 =====



	




  



-- 

Randy Hooper

  [quote][b]

mr.sun

Joined: 30 Jan 2007
Posts: 85

Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2009 9:42 am Post subject: Flying over water

Anyone have any idea of how to ditch a tailwheel RV with a tip up canopy?  Ideas?  Survival gear could be a moot point if the ditching goes poorly.  A discussion came up and it was proposed to dip a wingtip in the water at the last instant to avoid flipping on your back.  The term "cartwheel" came to mind.

 

do not archive



On Thu, Aug 27, 2009 at 9:10 AM, Randy Hooper <krhooper(at)gmail.com (krhooper(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

[quote] You might read FAR 91.509

  

 Randy Hooper

 

On Thu, Aug 27, 2009 at 10:31 AM, GLAESER, DENNIS <dennis.glaeser(at)hp.com (dennis.glaeser(at)hp.com)> wrote:

  



 	  Quote: 	
		  

--> RV-List message posted by: "GLAESER, DENNIS" <dennis.glaeser(at)hp.com (dennis.glaeser(at)hp.com)>

  

For Part 91 operations (non-commercial), there are no rules.  You're free to do whatever 'floats your boat' (couldn't help myself 

Commercial operations are required to have life vests for each person, a raft (big enough for everyone) and a pyrotechnic signal device (IIRC - haven't reviewed the regs lately)

  

I fly over water on trips from SE MI to Ohio over Lake Erie, and over Lake Michigan to OSH.

Whenever possible, I choose routes and altitudes that keep me, for the most part, within gliding distance of shore, and I'm always in contact with ATC or FSS in some manner (IFR, flight following, ..)

  I usually borrow life vests from a buddy who has a sea plane.



You can get decent light weight life vests and signaling devices at a boating store.  It's basically like insurance, better to have it and do whatever you can to never need it.  But the bottom line is that you are free to do whatever meets your comfort level.

  

Dennis Glaeser

RV-7A N751DG (at) 57D - 150 hrs



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From:   Ralph E. Capen

Living and flying around the DelMarVa peninsula provides great scenery - lots of

  farms, rivers, and places to go.



I'm concerned that there is a lot of water here - with the Chesapeake and Delaware

bays nearby...and let's not forget the Atlantic Ocean.



I'm thinking that I should be carrying some sort of water survival gear for my

  trips across the bay's at least.



Does anyone know what the specific rules are?  I don't have my FAR/AIM with me

- and I am still flying off my phase I hours.



The Cape May County airport (WWD) is within my 50nm circle and I could climb to

  altitude to ensure a safe glide distance to either side of the bay...but I would

really like to know the right way.....



Eventually, I'll be heading north to visit family in New England and there'll be

  some water to cross on the way there - regardless of the chosen route.



So...what are the rules?



And....what is everyone really doing? owse, Chat, FAQ,

 ="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List" target="_blank">http://ww===

  http://forums.mle, List Admin.

 =====



	




  



-- 

Randy Hooper



   	  Quote: 	
		  



t="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List

tp://forums.matronics.com

_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution



	




[b]

_________________
Greg RV-7

gyoung

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 211
Location: Republic of Texas

Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2009 10:21 am Post subject: Flying over water

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">   Why don't you just enlighten us?

Regards,GregSent from my Blackberry

From:  Randy Hooper 

Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2009 11:10:28 -0500

To: <rv-list(at)matronics.com>

Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Flying over water

You might read FAR 91.509

=A0

Randy Hooper

On Thu, Aug 27, 2009 at 10:31 AM, GLAESER, DENNI= S <dennis.gla= eser(at)hp.com (dennis.glaeser(at)hp.com)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  --> RV-List message posted by= : "GLAESER, DENNIS" <= dennis.glaeser(at)hp.com (dennis.glaeser(at)hp.com)>



For Part 91 operations (non-commercial), there are no rules. =A0You&#39= ;re free to do whatever 'floats your boat' (couldn't help mysel= f 

Commercial operations are required to have life vests for each per= son, a raft (big enough for everyone) and a pyrotechnic signal device (IIRC=  - haven't reviewed the regs lately)



I fly over water on trips from SE MI to Ohio over Lake Erie, and over L= ake Michigan to OSH.

Whenever possible, I choose routes and altitudes th= at keep me, for the most part, within gliding distance of shore, and I'= m always in contact with ATC or FSS in some manner (IFR, flight following, = ...)

 I usually borrow life vests from a buddy who has a sea plane.



You ca= n get decent light weight life vests and signaling devices at a boating sto= re. =A0It's basically like insurance, better to have it and do whatever=  you can to never need it. =A0But the bottom line is that you are free to d= o whatever meets your comfort level.



Dennis Glaeser

RV-7A N751DG (at) 57D - 150 hrs



-----------------= ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= -----

From: =A0 Ralph E. Capen

Living and flying around the DelMarVa = peninsula provides great scenery - lots of

 farms, rivers, and places to go.



I'm concerned that there is a l= ot of water here - with the Chesapeake and Delaware

bays nearby...and le= t's not forget the Atlantic Ocean.



I'm thinking that I shoul= d be carrying some sort of water survival gear for my

 trips across the bay's at least.



Does anyone know what the speci= fic rules are? =A0I don't have my FAR/AIM with me

- and I am still f= lying off my phase I hours.



The Cape May County airport (WWD) is wit= hin my 50nm circle and I could climb to

 altitude to ensure a safe glide distance to either side of the bay...but I = would

really like to know the right way.....



Eventually, I'll=  be heading north to visit family in New England and there'll be

 some water to cross on the way there - regardless of the chosen route.

<= br>So...what are the rules?



And....what is everyone really doing?http://ww= =3D=3D=3D

  http://forums.m= le, List Admin.

 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D



	




-- 

Randy Hooper

  	  Quote: 	
		    _-=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D _-=3D          - The RV-List Email Forum - _-=3D Use the Matronics List Features Navigator to browse _-=3D the many List utilities such as List Un/Subscription, _-=3D Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, _-=3D Photoshare, and much much more: _-=3D _-=3D   --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List _-=3D _-=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D _-=3D               - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - _-=3D Same great content also available via the Web Forums! _-=3D _-=3D   --> http://forums.matronics.com _-=3D _-=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D _-=3D             - List Contribution Web Site - _-=3D  Thank you for your generous support! _-=3D                              -Matt Dralle, List Admin. _-=3D   --> http://www.matronics.com/contribution _-=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 	
 ¦·›~‰íúÈ³{ïœ¢Z+

recapen(at)earthlink.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2009 10:47 am Post subject: Flying over water

Here's what I got from another list response:



"I think the way it works for part 91 aircraft such as the RV's is that there are no specific rules.  There are regulations regarding survival equipment (91.509 -[ http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr&sid=fa6bbc1247720f831fa68e0c062499c6&rgn=div8&view=text&node=14:2.0.1.3.10.6.7.5&idno=14 ]) and communication equipment (91.511 - [ http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr&sid=fa6bbc1247720f831fa68e0c062499c6&rgn=div8&view=text&node=14:2.0.1.3.10.6.7.6&idno=14 ]), but these regulations fall under Subpart F and apply only to large turbine-powered multi-engine aircraft and aircraft that are in a fractional ownership program."



Thanks to Dan Baier.....

--

kahuna

Joined: 02 Feb 2007
Posts: 93

Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2009 10:48 am Post subject: Flying over water

do not archive  Sec. 91.509

 

 Survival equipment for overwater operations.

 

 (a) No person may take off an airplane for a flight over water more than 50 nautical miles from the nearest shore unless that airplane is equipped with a life preserver or an approved flotation means for each occupant of the airplane.

 [(b) Except as provided in paragraph (c) of this section, no person may take off an airplane for flight over water more than 30 minutes flying time or 100 nautical miles from the nearest shore, whichever is less, unless it has on board the following survival equipment:]

 (1) A life preserver, equipped with an approved survivor locator light, for each occupant of the airplane.

 (2) Enough liferafts (each equipped with an approved survival locator light) of a rated capacity and buoyancy to accommodate the occupants of the airplane.

 (3) At least one pyrotechnic signaling device for each liferaft.

 (4) One self-buoyant, water-resistant, portable emergency radio signaling device that is capable of transmission on the appropriate emergency frequency or frequencies and not dependent upon the airplane power supply.

 (5) A lifeline stored in accordance with Sec. 25.1411(g) of this chapter.

 [(c) A fractional ownership program manager under subpart K of this part may apply for a deviation from paragraphs (b)(2) through (5) of this section for a particular over water operation or the Administrator may amend the management specifications to require the carriage of all or any specific items of the equipment listed in paragraphs (b)(2) through (5) of this section.

 (d) The required life rafts, life preservers, and signaling devices must be installed in conspicuously marked locations and easily accessible in the event of a ditching without appreciable time for preparatory procedures.

 (e) A survival kit, appropriately equipped for the route to be flown, must be attached to each required life raft.

 (f) As used in this section, the term shore means that area of the land adjacent to the water that is above the high water mark and excludes land areas that are intermittently under water.]  

 

 

 [img]cid:1__=08BBFC8CDFF53A478f9e8a93df938(at)us.ibm.com[/img]"Greg Young" ---08/27/2009 02:40:57 PM---Why don't you just enlighten us? Regards,

 

   [img]cid:2__=08BBFC8CDFF53A478f9e8a93df938(at)us.ibm.com[/img]

 From:[img]cid:2__=08BBFC8CDFF53A478f9e8a93df938(at)us.ibm.com[/img]

 "Greg Young" <gyoung(at)cs-sol.com>  [img]cid:2__=08BBFC8CDFF53A478f9e8a93df938(at)us.ibm.com[/img]

 To:[img]cid:2__=08BBFC8CDFF53A478f9e8a93df938(at)us.ibm.com[/img]

 "RV List" <rv-list(at)matronics.com>  [img]cid:2__=08BBFC8CDFF53A478f9e8a93df938(at)us.ibm.com[/img]

 Date:[img]cid:2__=08BBFC8CDFF53A478f9e8a93df938(at)us.ibm.com[/img]

 08/27/2009 02:40 PM  [img]cid:2__=08BBFC8CDFF53A478f9e8a93df938(at)us.ibm.com[/img]

 Subject:[img]cid:2__=08BBFC8CDFF53A478f9e8a93df938(at)us.ibm.com[/img]

 Re: RV-List: Re: Flying over water  [img]cid:2__=08BBFC8CDFF53A478f9e8a93df938(at)us.ibm.com[/img]

 Sent by:[img]cid:2__=08BBFC8CDFF53A478f9e8a93df938(at)us.ibm.com[/img]

 owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com  

 

 

 Why don't you just enlighten us? 

Regards,GregSent from my Blackberry 

From: Randy Hooper 

 Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2009 11:10:28 -0500

 To: <rv-list(at)matronics.com>

 Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Flying over water 

You might read FAR 91.509

 =A0

 Randy Hooper

 

 On Thu, Aug 27, 2009 at 10:31 AM, GLAESER, DENNI= S <[url=3D%22mailto:dennis.glaeser(at)hp.com%22]dennis.gla= eser(at)hp.com[/url]> wrote:  --> RV-List message posted by= : "GLAESER, DENNIS" <[url=3D%22mailto:dennis.glaeser(at)hp.com%22]= dennis.glaeser(at)hp.com[/url]>

 

 For Part 91 operations (non-commercial), there are no rules. =A0You'= ;re free to do whatever 'floats your boat' (couldn't help mysel= f 

 Commercial operations are required to have life vests for each per= son, a raft (big enough for everyone) and a pyrotechnic signal device (IIRC= - haven't reviewed the regs lately)

 

 I fly over water on trips from SE MI to Ohio over Lake Erie, and over L= ake Michigan to OSH.

 Whenever possible, I choose routes and altitudes th= at keep me, for the most part, within gliding distance of shore, and I'= m always in contact with ATC or FSS in some manner (IFR, flight following, = ...)

 I usually borrow life vests from a buddy who has a sea plane.

 

 You ca= n get decent light weight life vests and signaling devices at a boating sto= re. =A0It's basically like insurance, better to have it and do whatever= you can to never need it. =A0But the bottom line is that you are free to d= o whatever meets your comfort level.

 

 Dennis Glaeser

 RV-7A N751DG (at) 57D - 150 hrs

 

 -----------------= ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= -----

 From: =A0 Ralph E. Capen

 Living and flying around the DelMarVa = peninsula provides great scenery - lots of

 farms, rivers, and places to go.

 

 I'm concerned that there is a l= ot of water here - with the Chesapeake and Delaware

 bays nearby...and le= t's not forget the Atlantic Ocean.

 

 I'm thinking that I shoul= d be carrying some sort of water survival gear for my

 trips across the bay's at least.

 

 Does anyone know what the speci= fic rules are? =A0I don't have my FAR/AIM with me

 - and I am still f= lying off my phase I hours.

 

 The Cape May County airport (WWD) is wit= hin my 50nm circle and I could climb to

 altitude to ensure a safe glide distance to either side of the bay...but I = would

 really like to know the right way.....

 

 Eventually, I'll= be heading north to visit family in New England and there'll be

 some water to cross on the way there - regardless of the chosen route.

 <= br>So...what are the rules?

 

 And....what is everyone really doing? owse, Chat, FAQ,

 =3D"http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List" target=3D"_blank">http://ww= =3D=3D=3D

 http://forums.m= le, List Admin.

 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

 

 

 
 
 

 

 

 -- 

 Randy Hooper

 [url=3D%22http://forums.matronics.com/%22]  _-=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D _-=3D          - The RV-List Email Forum - _-=3D Use the Matronics List Features Navigator to browse _-=3D the many List utilities such as List Un/Subscription, _-=3D Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, _-=3D Photoshare, and much much more: _-=3D _-=3D   --> [/url][url=3D%22http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List%22]http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List[/url] _-=3D _-=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D _-=3D               - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - _-=3D Same great content also available via the Web Forums! _-=3D _-=3D   --> [url=3D%22http://forums.matronics.com%22/]http://forums.matronics.com[/url] _-=3D _-=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D _-=3D             - List Contribution Web Site - _-=3D  Thank you for your generous support! _-=3D                              -Matt Dralle, List Admin. _-=3D   --> [url=3D%22http://www.matronics.com/contribution%22]http://www.matronics.com/contribution[/url] _-=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 

 Â¦Â·â€º~â€°ÃÂ²,Ãž

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mrobert569(at)hotmail.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2009 11:18 am Post subject: Flying over water

While this reg is a good guideline for all to use it is only regulatory to large and turbine powered airplanes C and fractional ownership program aircraft.  Meaning it does not apply to RV's. 

  

 Mike Robertson

 Das Fed

 

  Subject: Re: Re: Flying over water

To: rv-list(at)matronics.com

From: mike.stewart(at)us.ibm.com

Date: Thu C 27 Aug 2009 14:42:23 -0400



 do not archive     Sec. 91.509



Survival equipment for overwater operations.



(a) No person may take off an airplane for a flight over water more than 50 nautical miles from the nearest shore unless that airplane is equipped with a life preserver or an approved flotation means for each occupant of the airplane.

[(b) Except as provided in paragraph (c) of this section C no person may take off an airplane for flight over water more than 30 minutes flying time or 100 nautical miles from the nearest shore C whichever is less C unless it has on board the following survival equipment:]

(1) A life preserver C equipped with an approved survivor locator light C for each occupant of the airplane.

(2) Enough liferafts (each equipped with an approved survival locator light) of a rated capacity and buoyancy to accommodate the occupants of the airplane.

(3) At least one pyrotechnic signaling device for each liferaft.

(4) One self-buoyant C water-resistant C portable emergency radio signaling device that is capable of transmission on the appropriate emergency frequency or frequencies and not dependent upon the airplane power supply.

(5) A lifeline stored in accordance with Sec. 25.1411(g) of this chapter.

[(c) A fractional ownership program manager under subpart K of this part may apply for a deviation from paragraphs (b)(2) through (5) of this section for a particular over water operation or the Administrator may amend the management specifications to require the carriage of all or any specific items of the equipment listed in paragraphs (b)(2) through (5) of this section.

(d) The required life rafts C life preservers C and signaling devices must be installed in conspicuously marked locations and easily accessible in the event of a ditching without appreciable time for preparatory procedures.

(e) A survival kit C appropriately equipped for the route to be flown C must be attached to each required life raft.

(f) As used in this section C the term shore means that area of the land adjacent to the water that is above the high water mark and excludes land areas that are intermittently under water.]

[img]cid:1__=08BBFC8CDFF53A478f9e8a93df938(at)us.ibm.com[/img]"Greg Young" ---08/27/2009 02:40:57 PM---Why don't you just enlighten us? Regards C



    [img]cid:2__=08BBFC8CDFF53A478f9e8a93df938(at)us.ibm.com[/img]

From: [img]cid:2__=08BBFC8CDFF53A478f9e8a93df938(at)us.ibm.com[/img]

"Greg Young" <gyoung(at)cs-sol.com>  [img]cid:2__=08BBFC8CDFF53A478f9e8a93df938(at)us.ibm.com[/img]

To: [img]cid:2__=08BBFC8CDFF53A478f9e8a93df938(at)us.ibm.com[/img]

"RV List" <rv-list(at)matronics.com>  [img]cid:2__=08BBFC8CDFF53A478f9e8a93df938(at)us.ibm.com[/img]

Date: [img]cid:2__=08BBFC8CDFF53A478f9e8a93df938(at)us.ibm.com[/img]

08/27/2009 02:40 PM  [img]cid:2__=08BBFC8CDFF53A478f9e8a93df938(at)us.ibm.com[/img]

Subject: [img]cid:2__=08BBFC8CDFF53A478f9e8a93df938(at)us.ibm.com[/img]

Re: RV-List: Re: Flying over water  [img]cid:2__=08BBFC8CDFF53A478f9e8a93df938(at)us.ibm.com[/img]

Sent by: [img]cid:2__=08BBFC8CDFF53A478f9e8a93df938(at)us.ibm.com[/img]

owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com  

Why don't you just enlighten us?  

  From: Randy Hooper 

Date: Thu C 27 Aug 2009 11:10:28 -0500

To: <rv-list(at)matronics.com>

Subject: Re: Re: Flying over water  

You might read FAR 91.509

=A0

Randy Hooper



On Thu C Aug 27 C 2009 at 10:31 AM C GLAESER C DENNI= S <dennis.gla= eser(at)hp.com> wrote:   --> RV-List message posted by= : "GLAESER C DENNIS" <= dennis.glaeser(at)hp.com>



For Part 91 operations (non-commercial) C there are no rules. =A0You'= ;re free to do whatever 'floats your boat' (couldn't help mysel= f 

Commercial operations are required to have life vests for each per= son C a raft (big enough for everyone) and a pyrotechnic signal device (IIRC= - haven't reviewed the regs lately)



I fly over water on trips from SE MI to Ohio over Lake Erie C and over L= ake Michigan to OSH.

Whenever possible C I choose routes and altitudes th= at keep me C for the most part C within gliding distance of shore C and I'= m always in contact with ATC or FSS in some manner (IFR C flight following C = ...)

I usually borrow life vests from a buddy who has a sea plane.



You ca= n get decent light weight life vests and signaling devices at a boating sto= re. =A0It's basically like insurance C better to have it and do whatever= you can to never need it. =A0But the bottom line is that you are free to d= o whatever meets your comfort level.



Dennis Glaeser

RV-7A N751DG (at) 57D - 150 hrs



-----------------= ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= -----

From: =A0 Ralph E. Capen

Living and flying around the DelMarVa = peninsula provides great scenery - lots of

farms C rivers C and places to go.



I'm concerned that there is a l= ot of water here - with the Chesapeake and Delaware

bays nearby...and le= t's not forget the Atlantic Ocean.



I'm thinking that I shoul= d be carrying some sort of water survival gear for my

trips across the bay's at least.



Does anyone know what the speci= fic rules are? =A0I don't have my FAR/AIM with me

- and I am still f= lying off my phase I hours.



The Cape May County airport (WWD) is wit= hin my 50nm circle and I could climb to

altitude to ensure a safe glide distance to either side of the bay...but I = would

really like to know the right way.....



Eventually C I'll= be heading north to visit family in New England and there'll be

some water to cross on the way there - regardless of the chosen route.

<= br>So...what are the rules?



And....what is everyone really doing? owse C Chat C FAQ C

=3D"http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List" target=3D"_blank">http://ww= =3D=3D=3D

http://forums.m= le C List Admin.

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D







-- 

Randy Hooper[/u][/b]http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D; --> [/b]http://forums.matronics.com&nbs=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D                &nb[b][u]http://www.matronics.com/contri3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 

¦·›~‰í² CÞ



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recapen(at)earthlink.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2009 11:54 am Post subject: Flying over water

Thanks Mike.....

Meaning that I'm kinda back to the original no-real-rules statement.

I'm thinking a set of inflatable suspender-type with a light and whistle attached (like I use while sailing) is a good start - I can wear that and still strap in properly.



--

pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2009 11:57 am Post subject: Flying over water

The cartwheel worked for a grumman off the coast of Australia.  Although 

not a TW, the nose wheel makes a flip almost guaranteed.  Video on 

Youtube, I think.

Linn



mr.gsun(at)gmail.com wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Anyone have any idea of how to ditch a tailwheel RV with a tip up 

 canopy?  Ideas?  Survival gear could be a moot point if the ditching 

 goes poorly.  A discussion came up and it was proposed to dip a wingtip 

 in the water at the last instant to avoid flipping on your back.  The 

 term "cartwheel" came to mind.

 

 do not archive

Kellym

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1706
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2009 12:10 pm Post subject: Flying over water

You might read the preamble to subpart F that 509 is in:

"91.501 (a) This subpart prescribes operating rules, in addition to 

those prescribed in other subparts of this part, governing the operation 

of large airplanes of U.S. registry, turbojet-powered multiengine civil 

airplanes of U.S. registry, and fractional ownership program aircraft of 

U.S. registry that are operating under subpart K of this part in 

operations not involving common carriage."



AFAIK, no RV has multiengine turbojet power, and none come close to the 

gross wt limits of a large aircraft.



Randy Hooper wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   You might read FAR 91.509

  

 Randy Hooper

 

 On Thu, Aug 27, 2009 at 10:31 AM, GLAESER, DENNIS <dennis.glaeser(at)hp.com 

 <mailto:dennis.glaeser(at)hp.com>> wrote:

 

     

     <dennis.glaeser(at)hp.com <mailto:dennis.glaeser(at)hp.com>>

 

     For Part 91 operations (non-commercial), there are no rules.  You're

     free to do whatever 'floats your boat' (couldn't help myself 

     Commercial operations are required to have life vests for each

     person, a raft (big enough for everyone) and a pyrotechnic signal

     device (IIRC - haven't reviewed the regs lately)

 

     I fly over water on trips from SE MI to Ohio over Lake Erie, and

     over Lake Michigan to OSH.

     Whenever possible, I choose routes and altitudes that keep me, for

     the most part, within gliding distance of shore, and I'm always in

     contact with ATC or FSS in some manner (IFR, flight following, ...)

     I usually borrow life vests from a buddy who has a sea plane.

 

     You can get decent light weight life vests and signaling devices at

     a boating store.  It's basically like insurance, better to have it

     and do whatever you can to never need it.  But the bottom line is

     that you are free to do whatever meets your comfort level.

 

     Dennis Glaeser

     RV-7A N751DG (at) 57D - 150 hrs

 

     -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

     From:   Ralph E. Capen

     Living and flying around the DelMarVa peninsula provides great

     scenery - lots of

     farms, rivers, and places to go.

 

     I'm concerned that there is a lot of water here - with the

     Chesapeake and Delaware

     bays nearby...and let's not forget the Atlantic Ocean.

 

     I'm thinking that I should be carrying some sort of water survival

     gear for my

     trips across the bay's at least.

 

     Does anyone know what the specific rules are?  I don't have my

     FAR/AIM with me

     - and I am still flying off my phase I hours.

 

     The Cape May County airport (WWD) is within my 50nm circle and I

     could climb to

     altitude to ensure a safe glide distance to either side of the

     bay...but I would

     really like to know the right way.....

 

     Eventually, I'll be heading north to visit family in New England and

     there'll be

     some water to cross on the way there - regardless of the chosen route.

 

     So...what are the rules?

 

     And....what is everyone really doing?

     owse, Chat, FAQ,

     ="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List"

     target="_blank">http://ww===

     http://forums.mle, List Admin.

     =====

 

 

 

     <http://forums.matronics.com/>

 

 

 

 <http://forums.matronics.com/>

 

 -- 

 Randy Hooper

 <http://forums.matronics.com/>

 

 *

 

 

 *

_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor # 5286
KCHD

Tim Olson

Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2882

Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2009 1:07 pm Post subject: Flying over water

Yep, inflatable life vests would work great, and most come with

a whistle and streamer at least, and I think mine has a mirror

too.



For what it's worth, a life raft would be excellent, but if

you're one of those who's not inclined to spend the money

on a $1000 life raft and bring it along, there is another

option.  A queen sized air bed could be blown up by mouth

if you were really way out there, while you're floating

using your life vest.  Then that would suffice as better

than nothing.  I say that kind of tongue-in-cheek because yeah,

it's cheesy and there are plenty of good things that make

auto-inflate rafts much nicer....but if I were in the

middle of the ocean with just a life vest, I'd be wishing

I had at least threw in the old air bed. 



Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD

do not archive

Ralph E. Capen wrote:

[quote] 

 

 Thanks Mike.....

 Meaning that I'm kinda back to the original no-real-rules statement.

 I'm thinking a set of inflatable suspender-type with a light and whistle attached (like I use while sailing) is a good start - I can wear that and still strap in properly.

 

 --

gyoung

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 211
Location: Republic of Texas

Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2009 1:41 pm Post subject: Flying over water

I have been considering one of those suspender types for when I cut the

corner over Apalachicola Bay going to SnF. They are a Class III device.

Hoping they would be good if I ever wanted to fly to the Bahamas I asked

AOPA what was required and they said any Coast Guard approved device was OK.

I'm not sure what reg covers international over water but everyone acts like

there is one. Darn near anything other than a water ski belt is a Class III

or better so take your pick based on physical and mental comfort.



Regards,

Greg Young

 



[quote] --

khorton01(at)rogers.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2009 2:09 pm Post subject: Flying over water

You can't just take ever FAR at face value.  You have to find the

applicability statement that applies to the regulation in question.

The applicability for FAR 91 Subpart F (91.501 to 91.535) is found in

91.501: "This subpart prescribes operating rules, in addition to those

prescribed in other subparts of this part, governing the operation of

large airplanes of U.S. registry, turbojet-powered multiengine civil

airplanes of U.S. registry ...".

91.509 is not applicable to RVs.



So - no rules.



If the water is warm enough so you could survive immersion for a few

hours, I would simply wear inflatable life jackets.  If the water was

cold enough that you might not survive for a few hours, I would either

wear an immersion suit, or I would remain within gliding distance of

shore.



Transport Canada publication TP13822 "Survival in Cold Waters :

Staying Alive" is a good resource (10 MB pdf):



<http://www.tc.gc.ca/publications/EN/TP13822/PDF/HR/TP13822E.pdf>



The data in Figure 2 in Chapter 1 of TP 13822 suggests that if the

water is 65 deg F or warmer, that someone wearing a life jacket will

survive for many, many hours.  The survival time starts to fall off

significantly if the water temperature is below 60 deg F.



This document presents data from many studies.  The data from

laboratory studies, using cold water tanks, suggests longer survival

times that is found in studies using real bodies of water. If there

are no waves (as in a laboratory study), and the survivor keeps still,

rather than trying to swim, he might survive 3 hours if the water is

50 deg F.  But, if there are waves, the survivor must keep the limbs

moving to keep the waves at his back.  Moving the limbs causes more

heat to be lost, and eventually the muscles become non-responsive.

Then he may drown as he cannot prevent the body from turning to face

the waves.



Bottom line - if the water is colder than 60 deg F, a life jacket

alone probably isn't enough to guarantee survival, unless there is

enough water traffic that you would be rescued quickly.

--

Kevin Horton

Ottawa, Canada

On Thu, Aug 27, 2009 at 12:10, Randy Hooper <krhooper(at)gmail.com> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  

 You might read FAR 91.509



 Randy Hooper



 On Thu, Aug 27, 2009 at 10:31 AM, GLAESER, DENNIS <dennis.glaeser(at)hp.com> wrote:

>

> 

>

> For Part 91 operations (non-commercial), there are no rules.  You're free to do whatever 'floats your boat' (couldn't help myself 

> Commercial operations are required to have life vests for each person, a raft (big enough for everyone) and a pyrotechnic signal device (IIRC - haven't reviewed the regs lately)

>

> I fly over water on trips from SE MI to Ohio over Lake Erie, and over Lake Michigan to OSH.

> Whenever possible, I choose routes and altitudes that keep me, for the most part, within gliding distance of shore, and I'm always in contact with ATC or FSS in some manner (IFR, flight following, ...)

> I usually borrow life vests from a buddy who has a sea plane.

>

> You can get decent light weight life vests and signaling devices at a boating store.  It's basically like insurance, better to have it and do whatever you can to never need it.  But the bottom line is that you are free to do whatever meets your comfort level.

>

> Dennis Glaeser

> RV-7A N751DG (at) 57D - 150 hrs

>

> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

> From:   Ralph E. Capen

> Living and flying around the DelMarVa peninsula provides great scenery - lots of

> farms, rivers, and places to go.

>

> I'm concerned that there is a lot of water here - with the Chesapeake and Delaware

> bays nearby...and let's not forget the Atlantic Ocean.

>

> I'm thinking that I should be carrying some sort of water survival gear for my

> trips across the bay's at least.

>

> Does anyone know what the specific rules are?  I don't have my FAR/AIM with me

> - and I am still flying off my phase I hours.

>

> The Cape May County airport (WWD) is within my 50nm circle and I could climb to

> altitude to ensure a safe glide distance to either side of the bay...but I would

> really like to know the right way.....

>

> Eventually, I'll be heading north to visit family in New England and there'll be

> some water to cross on the way there - regardless of the chosen route.

>

> So...what are the rules?

>

> And....what is everyone really doing?

mdredmond(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 9:43 am Post subject: Flying over water

I'm not sure if I'm replying properly guys.  Let me know if I'm doing this wrong.  I only subscribe to the digest, which makes replying awkward.

  

 Ralph, I'd at least have an inflatable as you mention (I have SOSpenders), but be sure to take the auto-inflate bobbin out!  You wouldn't want to be in your upside-down plane with an inflated vest on...

   

  

  

 >Thanks Mike.....

 	  Quote: 	
		  Meaning that I'm kinda back to the original no-real-rules statement.

I'm thinking a set of inflatable suspender-type with a light and whistle attached

(like I use while sailing) is a good start - I can wear that and still strap

 >in properly
	


  [quote][b]

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