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Alternator choices

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colm.oreilly(at)gmail.com
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Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 4:24 pm Post subject: Alternator choices

Is it straightforward / recommended to modify an internally regulated  

alternator to be externally regulated or should I opt to buy an  

externally regulated model and not attempt to modify ? What kind of  

pitfalls should I expect or have been experienced IRL (In Real Life) ?



I ask this because almost all of the alternators I have seen for sale  

are internally regulated, even from aircraft / aero engine shops.



Thanks in advance,



Colm O'Reilly

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longg(at)pjm.com
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Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 6:24 am Post subject: Alternator choices

Colm,



Ha ha - Ok, you really want start a forum row? No worries, there are

miles of discussion about internal/external alt's on the forum. Do some

searching first and I think you'll find a lot of what you need. 



There are a lot of depends on that subject, but I think most would

recommend you buy the right piece of equipment for the job rather than

bastardize a cheaper (ala Pep Boys) internal unit. If you want to save a

few bucks just use the internal job and add an alt contactor to your

firewall. That's exactly what I did and I have no regrets. 



Glenn



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colm.oreilly(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 6:59 am Post subject: Alternator choices

Thanks Glenn, I realized this was an area of some contention, so I've  

donned my nomex underwear.



I am sold on the merits of external regulation, and given Bob's  

excellent recent article (or i read it in the 'connection ) on re- 

built alternators and quality not really being brand specific, I'd  

like to know if it is just a matter of 'removing' the internal  

regulator and connecting an external unit or if there is some other  

mysterious difference between an alternator built for internal  

regulation Vs one built for external regulation.



Colm



On Sep 3, 2009, at 10:22, <longg(at)pjm.com> wrote:



[quote] 



 Colm,



 Ha ha - Ok, you really want start a forum row? No worries, there are

 miles of discussion about internal/external alt's on the forum. Do  

 some

 searching first and I think you'll find a lot of what you need.



 There are a lot of depends on that subject, but I think most would

 recommend you buy the right piece of equipment for the job rather than

 bastardize a cheaper (ala Pep Boys) internal unit. If you want to  

 save a

 few bucks just use the internal job and add an alt contactor to your

 firewall. That's exactly what I did and I have no regrets.



 Glenn



 --

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longg(at)pjm.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 8:10 am Post subject: Alternator choices

Right,



	Ok, yes for the operation there certainly manufacturer

differences and you'll need to be familiar with how the unit is put

together. Some will argue but alternators like starters are one of the

big rip-offs in industry. Most are rebuilt for mere pennies against

their actual cost which makes selling rebuilt units a rather lucrative

business.

	Rebuilt units are quickly corrected because of the commonality

of failures they incur. Brushes, contacts, bearings commonly fail and

need only be replaced to create a like new unit to go. I've rebuilt the

starter in my truck twice for about $10.00 each time. After 300k I've

still got the same starter. Think about it, how often do the windings

fail on a alternator? Uh, almost never. Once you get past the core and

windings it's just little stuff. 

	I've not done what you request but what I would do is find a

couple of junk alternators and take them apart, take out the regulator,

hook them up to a test harness and see what happens. 



Even easier, watch this video and they'll walk you through the process.

Looks like the regulator is commonly on the end or outside, so it's a

breeze.



http://www.ehow.com/video_4936005_remove-voltage-regulator-from-alternat

or.html

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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 8:17 am Post subject: Alternator choices

At 09:56 AM 9/3/2009, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  

<colm.oreilly(at)gmail.com>



Thanks Glenn, I realized this was an area of some contention, so I've

donned my nomex underwear.



I am sold on the merits of external regulation, and given Bob's

excellent recent article (or i read it in the 'connection ) on re- 

built alternators and quality not really being brand specific, I'd

like to know if it is just a matter of 'removing' the internal

regulator and connecting an external unit or if there is some other

mysterious difference between an alternator built for internal

regulation Vs one built for external regulation.


	


    Nope, just take it out and bring out the field

    leads . . . or ground one of the field leads

    internally . . .



    If there has ever been any "contention" in the past

    it was totally fabricated by individuals with design

    goals inconsistent with legacy goals from our 100 yrs

    experience with TC aviation and/or AeroElectric

    Connection design goals for failure tolerant design.



    There has never been an attempt to persuade anyone

    that any particular alternator brand or configuration

    is unsuitable to the task on an OBAM aircraft.



    I'll suggest that readers of the List review the

    revised chapter on Alternators from the book which

    is currently available for free at:



http://aeroelectric.com/R12A/03_Alternator_12A1.pdf



    In these pages you will find an updated version

    of the simple-ideas that have been promoted here

    on the List and in the book since day-one.



    (1) independent, any time, on-off, any conditions

        control of the alternator(s).



    (2) independent, automatic, lightning fast management

        of an OV event . . . NOBODY's regulators are

        10 to the minus gee whiz failure rates.



    In years past, the path to Nirvana for these design

    goals was widest if you had an externally regulated

    alternator. In recent times, clever folks like

    Plane-Power have MODIFIED contemporary automotive

    designs to achieve the above stated design goals . . .

    and you can do it too. It's not difficult. And even

    if you screw it up the first, second or third times,

    you'll eventually get it right. Further, if your system

    is truly failure tolerant, the first, second or third

    events will be significant only because they are

    milestones in your learning process.



    Finally, with respect to saluting the flags of

    any particular brand name or model, I hope that

    the description of my trip to MPA/MPM facilities

    last fall will encourage builders to pick an

    alternator that best fits their project mechanically

    and for performance (output current) and purchase

    that item either new (from about anybody) or re-man

    (from a facility on the class of MPA/MPM).



    Anything else to be said on this topic must have

    roots in alternative design goals (which anyone

    is free to embrace) or superstition and faith borne

    out of ignorance. There are lots of folks here on

    the list ready to counsel the unsure or insecure.

    How may we be of service?



    Bob . . .

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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 10:23 am Post subject: Alternator choices

At 10:59 AM 9/3/2009, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



Right,



         Ok, yes for the operation there certainly manufacturer

differences and you'll need to be familiar with how the unit is put

together. Some will argue but alternators like starters are one of the

big rip-offs in industry. Most are rebuilt for mere pennies against

their actual cost which makes selling rebuilt units a rather lucrative

business.


	


    Sure . . . since re-man operations purchase cores at

    scrap metal prices, they're getting complex castings,

    field rings and rotors with a very low investment. The

    BIG cost of a rebuild is labor . . . which is why operations

    like MPA/MPM are successful in the market . . . I think

    the average in-the-door/out-the-door, hands-on labor

    averaged 45 minutes per article.



 	  Quote: 	
		           Rebuilt units are quickly corrected because of the commonality

of failures they incur. Brushes, contacts, bearings commonly fail and

need only be replaced to create a like new unit to go.


	


    Unless you tear the incoming part down to nearly individual

    parts, clean and inspect with go/no-go gages, turn the

    slip rings, chase the threads, and re-assemble with

    all new wearing parts, new or re-plated hardware, etc.

    This is the difference between a re-man and repair

    operation.



    <snip>



 	  Quote: 	
		  Even easier, watch this video and they'll walk you through the process.

Looks like the regulator is commonly on the end or outside, so it's a

breeze.



http://www.ehow.com/video_4936005_remove-voltage-regulator-from-alternat

or.html


	


   This is not typical of the alternators I've worked with

   the most. Removal of the voltage regulator usually

   involves splitting the case and studying the manner

   in which internal electronics and brush holders are

   interconnected. Further, most alternators have one

   of the two brushes connected to the b-lead terminal.

   This needs to be rewired to take the brush to ground.



   The other brush connection needs to come out for

   attachment to the regulator. Be wary of trying to

   "salvage" the existing fast-on tabs for bringing

   your new field wires out. The alloy from which

   those tabs are made may be very hard to solder to.

   I'd recommend that your first mod simply bring

   the brush leads out on wires to be properly

   connected externally.



   It's not 'hard' . . . the pitfall are more

   mechanical than electrical.



   Bob . . .

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