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grantr

Joined: 12 Sep 2007
Posts: 217

Posted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 11:27 am Post subject: law suit after selling plane?

All this liability and sueing talk has me worried. I will be listing my plane for sale soon as I donâ€™t need 2 aircraft. It is airworthy and I will demo for any person that wants to see it. That should be prove enough that it is safe IMO or I wouldnâ€™t fly it! But  if I sell it and the buyer crashes it and get hurt or worse killed what is my best defense against getting sued? I am not the builder.   If I am sued how can I protect my assets? File Bankruptcy move all my assets out of my name to my wifeâ€™s name?



I donâ€™t have a ton of saving but I sure would hate to lose them on legal fees and paying out on a law suit. I would represent myself due to the cost of a lawyer.

rickofudall

Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1392
Location: Udall, KS, USA

Posted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 12:10 pm Post subject: law suit after selling plane?

Grant, If you are truly that worried about it spend a few hundred bucks and go see a good lawyer for advice. Getting it from people who are obsessing and guessing will get you nowhere. I don't say this to be rude, just to save you a lot of worry and distress. Liability law is too complex to be handled on an airplane forum by amateurs. The advice you get here will be worth exactly what you pay for it. 



Rick Girard

do not archive



On Thu, Oct 8, 2009 at 2:27 PM, grantr <grant_richardson25(at)yahoo.com (grant_richardson25(at)yahoo.com)> wrote:

 [quote]--> Kolb-List message posted by: "grantr" <grant_richardson25(at)yahoo.com (grant_richardson25(at)yahoo.com)>

  

 All this liability and sueing talk has me worried. I will be listing my plane for sale soon as I don’t need 2 aircraft. It is airworthy and I will demo for any person that wants to see it. That should be prove enough that it is safe IMO or I wouldn’t fly it! But  if I sell it and the buyer crashes it and get hurt or worse killed what is my best defense against getting sued? I am not the builder.   If I am sued how can I protect my assets? File Bankruptcy move all my assets out of my name to my wife’s name?

  

 I don’t have a ton of saving but I sure would hate to lose them on legal fees and paying out on a law suit. I would represent myself due to the cost of a lawyer.

 

 

 

 

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The smallest miracle right in front of you is enough to make you happy....

herbgh(at)nctc.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 4:13 pm Post subject: law suit after selling plane?

The EAA site probably has the best example of a bill of sale...Herb

At 02:27 PM 10/8/2009, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



All this liability and sueing talk has me 

worried. I will be listing my plane for sale 

soon as I donâ€™t need 2 aircraft. It is 

airworthy and I will demo for any person that 

wants to see it. That should be prove enough 

that it is safe IMO or I wouldnâ€™t fly it! 

But  if I sell it and the buyer crashes it and 

get hurt or worse killed what is my best defense 

against getting sued? I am not the builder.   If 

I am sued how can I protect my assets? File 

Bankruptcy move all my assets out of my name to my wifeâ€™s name?



I donâ€™t have a ton of saving but I sure would 

hate to lose them on legal fees and paying out 

on a law suit. I would represent myself due to the cost of a lawyer.





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 67135#267135





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- Release Date: 10/08/09 18:33:00

Thom Riddle

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)

Posted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 4:07 am Post subject: Re: law suit after selling plane?

The best defense against lawsuits is very simple.... poverty. Lawyers first and foremost look for deep pockets. If they don't find worthwhile attachable assets then they stop bothering you. 



do not archive

_________________
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)

Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
- Anonymous

russkinne(at)mac.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 4:25 am Post subject: law suit after selling plane?

Seems to me poverty is common if not rampant in the flying fraternity.

Maybe we're safe!

do not archive

On Oct 9, 2009, at 8:07 AM, Thom Riddle wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 The best defense against lawsuits is very simple.... poverty.  

 Lawyers first and foremost look for deep pockets. If they don't  

 find worthwhile attachable assets then they stop bothering you.



 do not archive



 --------

 Thom Riddle

 Buffalo, NY

 Kolb Slingshot SS-021

 Jabiru 2200A #1574

 Tennessee Prop 64x34



 A complex system that works is invariably found to have evolved  

 from a simple system that works.

   - John Gaule





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Possums

Joined: 03 Nov 2007
Posts: 247

Posted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 12:41 pm Post subject: law suit after selling plane?

At 08:07 AM 10/9/2009, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



The best defense against lawsuits is very simple.... poverty.


	




I found the Liability Form the EAA uses for the

Young Eagles, maybe a variation of it would work?

I would think their lawyers have reviewed it to death by now.

LiabilityFormYoungEagles.pdf

Description:

Download

Filename:

LiabilityFormYoungEagles.pdf

Filesize:

54.7 KB

Downloaded:

626 Time(s)

_________________
Possum

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 3:22 pm Post subject: Re: law suit after selling plane?

 	  Possums wrote: 	
		  



I found the Liability Form the EAA uses for the

Young Eagles, maybe a variation of it would work?

I would think their lawyers have reviewed it to death by now.

	




Here is what you have to understand.  No variation, no document, no contract, in no way would ever work.  The person that buys your plane may or may not be able to sue you depending on the details, BUT....  The person that purchases your plane can NOT EVER sign the rights of his family away, they can sue you no matter what he signs.  



Mike

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

Possums

Joined: 03 Nov 2007
Posts: 247

Posted: Sat Oct 10, 2009 12:12 pm Post subject: law suit after selling plane?

Guess I should just burn it then?

At 07:22 PM 10/9/2009, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

Possums wrote:

 >>

 > I found the Liability Form the EAA uses for the

 > Young Eagles, maybe a variation of it would work?

 > I would think their lawyers have reviewed it to death by now.

 >

Here is what you have to understand.  No variation, no document, no 

contract, in no way would ever work.  The person that buys your 

plane may or may not be able to sue you depending on the details, 

BUT....  The person that purchases your plane can NOT EVER sign the 

rights of his family away, they can sue you no matter what he signs.

Mike

--------

&quot;NO FEAR&quot; -  If you have no fear you did not go as fast as 

you could have !!!

_________________
Possum

slyck(at)frontiernet.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Oct 10, 2009 1:09 pm Post subject: law suit after selling plane?

nah, sell it to me cheap.  I won't sue.  (I gar-un-tee)

BB



On 10, Oct 2009, at 4:10 PM, possums wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Guess I should just burn it then?



 At 07:22 PM 10/9/2009, you wrote:

> 

> Possums wrote:

> >>

> > I found the Liability Form the EAA uses for the

> > Young Eagles, maybe a variation of it would work?

> > I would think their lawyers have reviewed it to death by now.

> >

> Here is what you have to understand.  No variation, no document, no  

> contract, in no way would ever work.  The person that buys your  

> plane may or may not be able to sue you depending on the details,  

> BUT....  The person that purchases your plane can NOT EVER sign the  

> rights of his family away, they can sue you no matter what he signs.

>

> Mike

>

> --------

> &quot;NO FEAR&quot; -  If you have no fear you did not go as fast  

> as you could have !!!

elleryweld(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Oct 10, 2009 3:52 pm Post subject: law suit after selling plane?

if You give it to me I promise not to launch a lawsuit on you 

    

   Ellery in Maine 

   do not archive

 

 

 --

aoldman(at)xtra.co.nz
Guest

Posted: Sat Oct 10, 2009 11:40 pm Post subject: law suit after selling plane?

Even better send it to New Zealand get good money  for it and we do not sue anyone.

  

 Downunder

 [quote]   ---

Don G

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 156
Location: Central Illinois

Posted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 5:10 pm Post subject: Re: law suit after selling plane?

Grant,

Here is my advice..although as  has been already said...its worth what you are paying for it...



Demo the plane for the buyer...show him it is flys...

then take it apart...not completely of course... just take the wings off and take out the fuel tank if its not too hard...simple things and  have him help so he can see how to put it back together..

Then have him sign a doc that says he is buying an aircraft that is NOT in flying condition...parts sale only.

Pack it up and send him on his way.

Even a rookie lawyer could defend you against his heirs if he kills himself in it then.

_________________
Don G.
Central Illinois
Kitfox IV Speedster
Luscombe 8A
RV9A

Dana

Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 1047
Location: Connecticut, USA

Posted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 5:24 pm Post subject: law suit after selling plane?

On this subject, I came across this last night while searching for 

something else:

<http://www.aviationlawcorp.com/content/liabhomeblt.html>



-Dana

--

  Does fuzzy logic tickle?

Rick Lewis

Joined: 03 Jul 2007
Posts: 122
Location: Kingston, Tn.

Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 4:09 am Post subject: Re: law suit after selling plane?

I have already been through this when I sold my Cozy.  I was very concerned about a law suit as you are.  In talking to a lawyer about this, he told me there was NO document available that could be singed that would protect you from a law suit.  I sold the Cozy anyway and had the guy sign the document that the EAA came up with.  Four months later he resold the plane and now all bets are off.  I also actually thought about dismantling the plane and selling parts but any piece that I built I was liable for.  But that's the key word, "I BUILT".  If you did NOT build the plane you are not liable, at all,  for the planes construction defects.  That liability will fall back on the original builder.  If you sell a Piper aircraft, you are not responsible for the construction defects that may be there.



     Here is the other down fall.  Even if you did not build the plane you could still find yourself in court were you may win the case but you have spent a lot of money defending yourself.  I don't call that winning either.  The more money there lawyer thinks you have the more likely you will end up in court, simple as that.



Rick Lewis

undoctor

Joined: 21 Oct 2008
Posts: 212
Location: Bethelhem, PA

Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 6:13 am Post subject: law suit after selling plane?

Kolbers,



The discussion we're seeing on liability is an indictment on the lack of 

personal responsibility that is becoming more and more prevalent in our 

society.  We're turning into a bunch of whining, puking babies, to quote 

a master.



Re: my catastrophic failure at over 1000' AGL in an underconstructed 

Chicken Hawk, I did try to locate the mfgr. in Bellingham, WA, but 

learned he was out of business.  I intended to sue the manufacturer, 

since the manufacturer has the responsibility to build a product that is 

adequate for its intended purpose, and just as the consumer doesn't have 

the obligation to check the tensile strength of the tie rods of the car 

he buys, I should not be expected to research the cables used for the 

flight controls, which had failed.



But!!!  that's where it stops with a reasonable person in this kind of 

situation.  I never considered suing the man I bought the UL from, the 

fellow who put it together, the owner of the strip I flew out of, or 

even the man a mile from the airstrip whose brush growing along his 

drive served to allow me to survive the fall.  None of them had any 

responsibility for the construction of or my decision to fly the 

aircraft.  And since I've raised my children with the same personal 

responsibility philosophy that was bred into me, it's highly unlikely 

they would have acted any differently if I hadn't survived.



Bottom line: anyone can sue anyone for almost anything, so you can't 

shovel snow perfectly enough to totally escape the threat of a lawsuit.  

I believe it's best to just relax, go about life in a reasonable manner, 

and fight the bozos when you must.  There are too many of them on the 

loose to avoid them entirely!



Dave Kulp

Bethlehem, PA

FireFly 11DMK



You can check      

www.matronics.com/photoshare/undoctor(at)rcn.com.05.07.2007      if you'd 

like to check pics, etc. of the failure and crash.



Time:     06:11:03 PM PST US

Subject:     Re: law suit after selling plane?

From:     "Don G" <donghe(at)one-eleven.net>

      

      

      Grant,

      Here is my advice..although as  has been already said...its worth 

what you are

      paying for it...

      

      Demo the plane for the buyer...show him it is flys...

      then take it apart...not completely of course... just take the 

wings off and take

      out the fuel tank if its not too hard...simple things and  have 

him help so

      he can see how to put it back together..

      Then have him sign a doc that says he is buying an aircraft that 

is NOT in flying

      condition...parts sale only.

      Pack it up and send him on his way.

      Even a rookie lawyer could defend you against his heirs if he 

kills himself in

      it then.

      

      --------

      Don G.

      Central Illinois

      Kitfox IV Speedster

      Luscombe 8A

slyck(at)frontiernet.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 6:49 am Post subject: law suit after selling plane?

not much of an airfoil on that corntraption Dave.  In the mid 70s when  

those kinds of toys became popular I also

was fascinated by the simplicity of bare bones flying machines.  I  

already had a PPL and a "real" airplane but

still was curious.  What saved me from buying one was the high  

prices.  $3000 for a pile of pipes and cloth

was ridiculous when You could buy a used certificated airplane for the  

same amount.

The gap of reality between planes like the Baby Ace and the sleazy  

stuff like the chicken hawk fortunately got

closed with the likes of Kolbs, Flightstars, etc.

BB



On 22, Oct 2009, at 10:13 AM, Dave Kulp wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Kolbers,



 The discussion we're seeing on liability is an indictment on the  

 lack of personal responsibility that is becoming more and more  

 prevalent in our society.  We're turning into a bunch of whining,  

 puking babies, to quote a master.



 Re: my catastrophic failure at over 1000' AGL in an underconstructed  

 Chicken Hawk, I did try to locate the mfgr. in Bellingham, WA, but  

 learned he was out of business.  I intended to sue the manufacturer,  

 since the manufacturer has the responsibility to build a product  

 that is adequate for its intended purpose, and just as the consumer  

 doesn't have the obligation to check the tensile strength of the tie  

 rods of the car he buys, I should not be expected to research the  

 cables used for the flight controls, which had failed.



 But!!!  that's where it stops with a reasonable person in this kind  

 of situation.  I never considered suing the man I bought the UL  

 from, the fellow who put it together, the owner of the strip I flew  

 out of, or even the man a mile from the airstrip whose brush growing  

 along his drive served to allow me to survive the fall.  None of  

 them had any responsibility for the construction of or my decision  

 to fly the aircraft.  And since I've raised my children with the  

 same personal responsibility philosophy that was bred into me, it's  

 highly unlikely they would have acted any differently if I hadn't  

 survived.



 Bottom line: anyone can sue anyone for almost anything, so you can't  

 shovel snow perfectly enough to totally escape the threat of a  

 lawsuit.  I believe it's best to just relax, go about life in a  

 reasonable manner, and fight the bozos when you must.  There are too  

 many of them on the loose to avoid them entirely!



 Dave Kulp

 Bethlehem, PA

 FireFly 11DMK



 You can check      www.matronics.com/photoshare/undoctor(at)rcn.com.05.07.2007 

       if you'd like to check pics, etc. of the failure and crash.



 Time:     06:11:03 PM PST US

 Subject:     Re: law suit after selling plane?

 From:     "Don G" <donghe(at)one-eleven.net>

               Grant,

     Here is my advice..although as  has been already said...its  

 worth what you are

     paying for it...

          Demo the plane for the buyer...show him it is flys...

     then take it apart...not completely of course... just take the  

 wings off and take

     out the fuel tank if its not too hard...simple things and  have  

 him help so

     he can see how to put it back together..

     Then have him sign a doc that says he is buying an aircraft that  

 is NOT in flying

     condition...parts sale only.

     Pack it up and send him on his way.

     Even a rookie lawyer could defend you against his heirs if he  

 kills himself in

     it then.

          --------

     Don G.

     Central Illinois

     Kitfox IV Speedster

     Luscombe 8A

russkinne(at)mac.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 7:03 am Post subject: law suit after selling plane?

Just one small addendum to Dave Kulp's good description of liability  

in our flying -- get all the signed releases you reasonably can.

These little pieces of paper can  save your tail some day. Might  

include one saying "in buying this (whatever) I understand that it is  

not new, and the seller accepts no responsibility for it in case it  

fails"

Or  "I am flying in  this aircraft of my own free will, and don't  

hold the owner, builder, or pilot responsible in any way if a crash  

occurs"

No doubt legal-trained people can refine the wording, but it's a  

great help to have SOMETHING if trouble occurs.

Unfortunately, you can't expect lawyers to act like "responsible  

people", and remember they're hired to win the case, not be popular  

or reasonable.

Also, where substantial amounts of money are on the horizon, even  

"responsible people" sometimes act very differently.

A sad situation, but there it is. A few pieces of paper can save you  

a lot of time, aggravation, cash, you name it.

But above all, fly safe & avoid all this if you can.

Russ K

do not archive



On Oct 22, 2009, at 10:13 AM, Dave Kulp wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Kolbers,



 The discussion we're seeing on liability is an indictment on the  

 lack of personal responsibility that is becoming more and more  

 prevalent in our society.  We're turning into a bunch of whining,  

 puking babies, to quote a master.



 Re: my catastrophic failure at over 1000' AGL in an  

 underconstructed Chicken Hawk, I did try to locate the mfgr. in  

 Bellingham, WA, but learned he was out of business.  I intended to  

 sue the manufacturer, since the manufacturer has the responsibility  

 to build a product that is adequate for its intended purpose, and  

 just as the consumer doesn't have the obligation to check the  

 tensile strength of the tie rods of the car he buys, I should not  

 be expected to research the cables used for the flight controls,  

 which had failed.



 But!!!  that's where it stops with a reasonable person in this kind  

 of situation.  I never considered suing the man I bought the UL  

 from, the fellow who put it together, the owner of the strip I flew  

 out of, or even the man a mile from the airstrip whose brush  

 growing along his drive served to allow me to survive the fall.   

 None of them had any responsibility for the construction of or my  

 decision to fly the aircraft.  And since I've raised my children  

 with the same personal responsibility philosophy that was bred into  

 me, it's highly unlikely they would have acted any differently if I  

 hadn't survived.



 Bottom line: anyone can sue anyone for almost anything, so you  

 can't shovel snow perfectly enough to totally escape the threat of  

 a lawsuit.  I believe it's best to just relax, go about life in a  

 reasonable manner, and fight the bozos when you must.  There are  

 too many of them on the loose to avoid them entirely!



 Dave Kulp

 Bethlehem, PA

 FireFly 11DMK



 You can check      www.matronics.com/photoshare/undoctor(at)rcn.com. 

 05.07.2007      if you'd like to check pics, etc. of the failure  

 and crash.



 Time:     06:11:03 PM PST US

 Subject:     Re: law suit after selling plane?

 From:     "Don G" <donghe(at)one-eleven.net>

                Grant,

      Here is my advice..although as  has been already said...its  

 worth what you are

      paying for it...

           Demo the plane for the buyer...show him it is flys...

      then take it apart...not completely of course... just take the  

 wings off and take

      out the fuel tank if its not too hard...simple things and   

 have him help so

      he can see how to put it back together..

      Then have him sign a doc that says he is buying an aircraft  

 that is NOT in flying

      condition...parts sale only.

      Pack it up and send him on his way.

      Even a rookie lawyer could defend you against his heirs if he  

 kills himself in

      it then.

           --------

      Don G.

      Central Illinois

      Kitfox IV Speedster

      Luscombe 8A

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 8:33 am Post subject: law suit after selling plane?

Four months later he resold the plane and now all bets are off.  >>.....



Hi,

not from what your next paragraph says..>>....That liability will fall back 

on the ORIGINAL BUILDER



<<.  If you sell a Piper aircraft, you are not responsible for the 

construction defects that may be there.>>



Wasn`t there a story, maybe apocryphal about the guy who taxied his Cub into 

a tree and took Piper to court on a charge of bad design because he couldn`t 

see over the nose??



Cheers



Pat

Dana

Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 1047
Location: Connecticut, USA

Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 9:17 am Post subject: law suit after selling plane?

At 12:32 PM 10/22/2009, pj.ladd wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  Wasn`t there a story, maybe apocryphal about the guy who taxied his Cub 

into a tree and took Piper to court on a charge of bad design because he 

couldn`t see over the nose??


	


I never heard that one (though it wouldn't surprise me) but one case that 

raised a big stink some years ago was the case of a Cub that crashed due to 

a failed part installed years earlier... said failed part being neither 

original nor made by Piper.  The widow sued Piper, the airport, the A&P who 

performed the annual, the previous owner, you name it.  I don't recall the 

details but I think it was settled out of court.



-Dana

--

  A day without sunshine is like, night.

Possums

Joined: 03 Nov 2007
Posts: 247

Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 6:58 pm Post subject: law suit after selling plane?

At 09:10 PM 10/21/2009, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



Grant,

Here is my advice..although as  has been already said...its worth 

what you are paying for it...



Demo the plane for the buyer...show him it is flys...

then take it apart...not completely of course... just take the wings 

off and take out the fuel tank if its not too hard...simple things 

and  have him help so he can see how to put it back together..

Then have him sign a doc that says he is buying an aircraft that is 

NOT in flying condition...parts sale only.

Pack it up and send him on his way.

Even a rookie lawyer could defend you against his heirs if he kills 

himself in it then.



--------

Don G.

Here is what you have to understand.  No variation, no document, no 
	


contract, in no way would ever work.  The person that buys your plane 

may or may not be able to sue you depending on the details, 

BUT....  The person that purchases your plane can NOT EVER sign the 

rights of his family away, they can sue you no matter what he signs.



Mike



--------

&quot;NO FEAR&quot; -  If you have no fear you did not go as fast as 

you could have !!!

_________________
Possum

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