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kenryan
Joined: 20 Oct 2009
Posts: 426
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 Posted: Mon Nov 23, 2009 7:03 am Post subject: seeking comments on 914 |
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Hello list,
I'm building a Zenith CH-750 and am pondering engine choices. The one that seems to me to be the "best" choice for my mission is the Rotax 914.
I would like comments on this engine, comparing it to the 912 because that's an option, too.
Also, if I do decide to use the 914 there most likely will not be a firewall forward kit, although there will be a 912 firewall forward kit. I'm also wondering just how much modification would be required to the 912 FF to accommodate the 914.
So, general comments on the 914 AND specific comments on the FF situation would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Ken Ryan
[quote][b]
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davidjoyce(at)doctors.org
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| Posted: Mon Nov 23, 2009 7:28 am Post subject: seeking comments on 914 |
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Ken, At sea level or 2000 ft there doesnt seem to be too much difference
between a 914 and a 912S, but performance and fuel consumption deteriorate
fairly markedly with altitude for the 912S whereas the 914 has 100% power to
17,000 ft and the fuel economy improves with height. To illustrate that my
914 Europa will do 156kts (TAS) at 200ft and 164kts at 6500ft and well over
its Vne at 10,000ft. At 2000ft it does 140 kts at 23 litres/hr but at
10,000ft it will do 150kts at only 21 litres/hr
I cannot lay my hands on the figures but a recent Europa strand
showed progressively worsening figures with altitude up to the sensible,
practical limit of 10,000ft
So my answer would be that it very much depends on what you hope
to do with your aeroplane. If you want to do much mountain flying or serious
long distance flights, then go for the 914. If you mostly think you will fly
around under the usual 3000ft cloud base then save your money.
The firewall forward set up is very similar, apart from needing an
airbox at lower port side to feed the turbo inlet, fed from a NACA inlet. It
won't be precisely adapted to your plane but Europa Aircraft will I am sure
be able to sell you one of their firewall forward kits which might be
reasonably easily modified. Regards, David Joyce
---
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rlborger(at)mac.com
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| Posted: Mon Nov 23, 2009 6:07 pm Post subject: seeking comments on 914 |
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Ken,
The 914 is a fine engine if you need the turbo and power. Will you be operating at high density altitudes? In the mountains? Doing long cross country flying where you need to fly high? Do you really need those extra 15 horses to get in/out of tight strips?
If you answer yes to any of those question, you may need the 914. If not, the 912S is a lot less expensive.
As for the differences in installation. The biggest differences are in the induction system and the exhaust system. All because of the turbo. The 912 usually has the air intake on the top of the cowl and into a fiberglass or plastic plenum where it is divided and sent to either side to the carbs. The 914 has the intake on the lower starboard (right viewed from pilot seat) where the turbo inlet resides. The turbo sends it upward into the big aluminum manifold where it is split into the carbs.
The 914 also has a lot of electrical connections for sensors for the turbo controller that the 912 doesn't have. And, of course, the 914 has a turbo waste gate controller to set and adjust manifold pressure.
You can go to the Europa web site ( http://www.europa-aircraft.co.uk/ ) to the "Builder Assistance" area, "Builders Manuals" and download the Europa installation manuals for both the 912 and 914 to get an idea of the differences. Perhaps, Europa would sell you a FF kit for the 914 should you decide you need one.
Hope this helps,
Bob Borger
Europa Kit #A221 N914XL, XS Mono, Intercooled 914, Airmaster C/S
http://www.europaowners.org/N914XL
Aircraft Flying!
3705 Lynchburg Dr.
Corinth, TX 76208
Home: 940-497-2123
Cel: 817-992-1117
On Nov 23, 2009, at 9:00, Ken Ryan wrote:
| Quote: | Hello list,
I'm building a Zenith CH-750 and am pondering engine choices. The one that seems to me to be the "best" choice for my mission is the Rotax 914.
I would like comments on this engine, comparing it to the 912 because that's an option, too.
Also, if I do decide to use the 914 there most likely will not be a firewall forward kit, although there will be a 912 firewall forward kit. I'm also wondering just how much modification would be required to the 912 FF to accommodate the 914.
So, general comments on the 914 AND specific comments on the FF situation would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Ken Ryan
| Quote: |
href="http://www.aeroelectric.com/">www.aeroelectric.com
href="http://www.buildersbooks.com/">www.buildersbooks.com
href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com/">www.homebuilthelp.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com
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kenryan
Joined: 20 Oct 2009
Posts: 426
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| Posted: Mon Nov 23, 2009 9:34 pm Post subject: seeking comments on 914 |
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Thanks Robert,
I'm in Alaska, so mountain flying is on the agenda (some mighty big mountains). Short strips are also in the equation.
Any thoughts on reliability of 914 vs 912 -- that's an important consideration to me, too.
Ken Ryan
On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 5:06 PM, Robert Borger <rlborger(at)mac.com (rlborger(at)mac.com)> wrote:
[quote] Ken,
The 914 is a fine engine if you need the turbo and power. Will you be operating at high density altitudes? In the mountains? Doing long cross country flying where you need to fly high? Do you really need those extra 15 horses to get in/out of tight strips?
If you answer yes to any of those question, you may need the 914. If not, the 912S is a lot less expensive.
As for the differences in installation. The biggest differences are in the induction system and the exhaust system. All because of the turbo. The 912 usually has the air intake on the top of the cowl and into a fiberglass or plastic plenum where it is divided and sent to either side to the carbs. The 914 has the intake on the lower starboard (right viewed from pilot seat) where the turbo inlet resides. The turbo sends it upward into the big aluminum manifold where it is split into the carbs.
The 914 also has a lot of electrical connections for sensors for the turbo controller that the 912 doesn't have. And, of course, the 914 has a turbo waste gate controller to set and adjust manifold pressure.
You can go to the Europa web site ( http://www.europa-aircraft.co.uk/ ) to the "Builder Assistance" area, "Builders Manuals" and download the Europa installation manuals for both the 912 and 914 to get an idea of the differences. Perhaps, Europa would sell you a FF kit for the 914 should you decide you need one.
Hope this helps,
Bob Borger
Europa Kit #A221 N914XL, XS Mono, Intercooled 914, Airmaster C/S
http://www.europaowners.org/N914XL
Aircraft Flying!
3705 Lynchburg Dr.
Corinth, TX 76208
Home: 940-497-2123
Cel: 817-992-1117
On Nov 23, 2009, at 9:00, Ken Ryan wrote:
| Quote: | Hello list,
I'm building a Zenith CH-750 and am pondering engine choices. The one that seems to me to be the "best" choice for my mission is the Rotax 914.
I would like comments on this engine, comparing it to the 912 because that's an option, too.
Also, if I do decide to use the 914 there most likely will not be a firewall forward kit, although there will be a 912 firewall forward kit. I'm also wondering just how much modification would be required to the 912 FF to accommodate the 914.
So, general comments on the 914 AND specific comments on the FF situation would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Ken Ryan
|
[b]
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http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List |
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rlborger(at)mac.com
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Nov 24, 2009 8:19 am Post subject: seeking comments on 914 |
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| Quote: | Ken,
Mountains & short strips. I guess you are leaning toward the 914 aren't you?
Both engines have reputations for reliability as long as they are properly operated and maintained. When they fail, it's usually a result of operator or maintenance error. I'd highly recommend attending one of the Rotax 9xx operations and maintenance courses before you start one for the first time. They are not your typical Lycoming or Continental. I have an album on my build web site ( http://www.europaowners.org/gallery2.php?g2_itemId=64472 ) devoted to the 9xx course I attended at Lockwood Aviation in Sebring, FL. Check it out. I just looked at it and all the text blocks related to the images are missing because the site managers are in the midst of an upgrade. But if you click on one of the pics the detailed text is there with the enlarged pic.
The 914 (115 HP) is turbocharged, but the 912S (100 HP) has high-compression pistons/rods, so both are stressed more than the 912 (80 HP). Just stressed in slightly different ways.
Maybe you should attend a Rotax 9xx course before you decide on the engine for you. Be fully informed and have an opportunity to talk to the instructor and others who can help steer you in the right direction for you application.
Just some random thoughts...
Check six,
Bob Borger
On Monday, November 23, 2009, at 11:33PM, "Ken Ryan" <keninalaska(at)gmail.com> wrote:
Thanks Robert,
|
I'm in Alaska, so mountain flying is on the agenda (some mighty big mountains). Short strips are also in the equation.
Any thoughts on reliability of 914 vs 912 -- that's an important consideration to me, too.
Ken Ryan
On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 5:06 PM, Robert Borger <rlborger(at)mac.com (rlborger(at)mac.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | Ken,
The 914 is a fine engine if you need the turbo and power. Will you be operating at high density altitudes? In the mountains? Doing long cross country flying where you need to fly high? Do you really need those extra 15 horses to get in/out of tight strips?
If you answer yes to any of those question, you may need the 914. If not, the 912S is a lot less expensive.
As for the differences in installation. The biggest differences are in the induction system and the exhaust system. All because of the turbo. The 912 usually has the air intake on the top of the cowl and into a fiberglass or plastic plenum where it is divided and sent to either side to the carbs. The 914 has the intake on the lower starboard (right viewed from pilot seat) where the turbo inlet resides. The turbo sends it upward into the big aluminum manifold where it is split into the carbs.
The 914 also has a lot of electrical connections for sensors for the turbo controller that the 912 doesn't have. And, of course, the 914 has a turbo waste gate controller to set and adjust manifold pressure.
You can go to the Europa web site ( http://www.europa-aircraft.co.uk/ ) to the "Builder Assistance" area, "Builders Manuals" and download the Europa installation manuals for both the 912 and 914 to get an idea of the differences. Perhaps, Europa would sell you a FF kit for the 914 should you decide you need one.
Hope this helps,
Bob Borger
Europa Kit #A221 N914XL, XS Mono, Intercooled 914, Airmaster C/S
http://www.europaowners.org/N914XL
Aircraft Flying!
3705 Lynchburg Dr.
Corinth, TX 76208
Home: 940-497-2123
Cel: 817-992-1117
On Nov 23, 2009, at 9:00, Ken Ryan wrote:
| Quote: | Hello list,
I'm building a Zenith CH-750 and am pondering engine choices. The one that seems to me to be the "best" choice for my mission is the Rotax 914.
I would like comments on this engine, comparing it to the 912 because that's an option, too.
Also, if I do decide to use the 914 there most likely will not be a firewall forward kit, although there will be a 912 firewall forward kit. I'm also wondering just how much modification would be required to the 912 FF to accommodate the 914.
So, general comments on the 914 AND specific comments on the FF situation would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Ken Ryan
|
ectric.com
">www.buildersbooks.com
builthelp.com
.matronics.com/contribution
ist">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List
ics.com
|
| | - The Matronics RotaxEngines-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List |
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l_luv2_fly(at)yahoo.com
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Nov 24, 2009 3:55 pm Post subject: seeking comments on 914 |
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Hi Ken,
I see that you have already got a number of responses to your question. I have a 914 in my Europa that has about 850 hours on it. In terms of maintenance I did the following:
- Changed the oil every 25 and oil + filter every 50 using a synthetic blend (More that what Rotax specify)
- Kept the carburetors balanced at all times.
- Replaced the plugs regularly and always ensured that they were correctly gapped
- Had the gear box shims checked every 300 hours (More that what Rotax specify)
- Keep the propeller dynamically balanced, that is to say, I had it balanced every time I removed it.
- Used a pre heater in the winter
My engine has always been very reliable, but unfortunately developed a leak on the crank case. I had the engine stripped and there was evidence of fretting, which although happens is unusual. Just call me lucky I guess. The upside was that when was a part the Rotax mechanic could not see any signs of wear in any part of the engine. I asked him should I at least throw a set of rings in it while it was apart but he assured me that it was a waste of money. The only thing he wanted me to do was to change it to a fully synthetic oil.
Based on my experience a 914 should see the 1200 hour TBO and beyond if you take care of it.
Would I buy one again.... I have to say at $30k + they sure are a chunk of change, but in the right application they are a "kick ass" little engine. I easily see 150 knots TAS in the 8000 ~ 12000 feet range for 28" of MP using 5.3 ~ 5.5 US gallons per hour. As many others have said, it depends on your mission profile.
Regards, Paul
[quote][b]
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kenryan
Joined: 20 Oct 2009
Posts: 426
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| Posted: Wed Nov 25, 2009 9:06 am Post subject: seeking comments on 914 |
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Thanks Bob,
I like the idea of getting the Rotax training before I decide. That's a really good idea. Also, it gives me an excuse for a winter vacation to someplace warm.
Ken
On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 7:15 AM, Bob Borger <rlborger(at)mac.com (rlborger(at)mac.com)> wrote:
[quote] | Quote: |
Ken,
Mountains & short strips. I guess you are leaning toward the 914 aren't you?
Both engines have reputations for reliability as long as they are properly operated and maintained. When they fail, it's usually a result of operator or maintenance error. I'd highly recommend attending one of the Rotax 9xx operations and maintenance courses before you start one for the first time. They are not your typical Lycoming or Continental. I have an album on my build web site ( http://www.europaowners.org/gallery2.php?g2_itemId=64472 ) devoted to the 9xx course I attended at Lockwood Aviation in Sebring, FL. Check it out. I just looked at it and all the text blocks related to the images are missing because the site managers are in the midst of an upgrade. But if you click on one of the pics the detailed text is there with the enlarged pic.
The 914 (115 HP) is turbocharged, but the 912S (100 HP) has high-compression pistons/rods, so both are stressed more than the 912 (80 HP). Just stressed in slightly different ways.
Maybe you should attend a Rotax 9xx course before you decide on the engine for you. Be fully informed and have an opportunity to talk to the instructor and others who can help steer you in the right direction for you application.
Just some random thoughts...
Check six,
Bob Borger
On Monday, November 23, 2009, at 11:33PM, "Ken Ryan" <keninalaska(at)gmail.com (keninalaska(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Thanks Robert,
|
I'm in Alaska, so mountain flying is on the agenda (some mighty big mountains). Short strips are also in the equation.
Any thoughts on reliability of 914 vs 912 -- that's an important consideration to me, too.
Ken Ryan
On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 5:06 PM, Robert Borger <rlborger(at)mac.com (rlborger(at)mac.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | Ken,
The 914 is a fine engine if you need the turbo and power. Will you be operating at high density altitudes? In the mountains? Doing long cross country flying where you need to fly high? Do you really need those extra 15 horses to get in/out of tight strips?
If you answer yes to any of those question, you may need the 914. If not, the 912S is a lot less expensive.
As for the differences in installation. The biggest differences are in the induction system and the exhaust system. All because of the turbo. The 912 usually has the air intake on the top of the cowl and into a fiberglass or plastic plenum where it is divided and sent to either side to the carbs. The 914 has the intake on the lower starboard (right viewed from pilot seat) where the turbo inlet resides. The turbo sends it upward into the big aluminum manifold where it is split into the carbs.
The 914 also has a lot of electrical connections for sensors for the turbo controller that the 912 doesn't have. And, of course, the 914 has a turbo waste gate controller to set and adjust manifold pressure.
You can go to the Europa web site ( http://www.europa-aircraft.co.uk/ ) to the "Builder Assistance" area, "Builders Manuals" and download the Europa installation manuals for both the 912 and 914 to get an idea of the differences. Perhaps, Europa would sell you a FF kit for the 914 should you decide you need one.
Hope this helps,
Bob Borger
Europa Kit #A221 N914XL, XS Mono, Intercooled 914, Airmaster C/S
http://www.europaowners.org/N914XL
Aircraft Flying!
3705 Lynchburg Dr.
Corinth, TX 76208
Home: 940-497-2123
Cel: 817-992-1117
On Nov 23, 2009, at 9:00, Ken Ryan wrote:
| Quote: | Hello list,
I'm building a Zenith CH-750 and am pondering engine choices. The one that seems to me to be the "best" choice for my mission is the Rotax 914.
I would like comments on this engine, comparing it to the 912 because that's an option, too.
Also, if I do decide to use the 914 there most likely will not be a firewall forward kit, although there will be a 912 firewall forward kit. I'm also wondering just how much modification would be required to the 912 FF to accommodate the 914.
So, general comments on the 914 AND specific comments on the FF situation would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Ken Ryan
|
ectric.com
">www.buildersbooks.com
builthelp.com
.matronics.com/contribution
ist">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List
ics.com
|
[b]
| | - The Matronics RotaxEngines-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List |
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kenryan
Joined: 20 Oct 2009
Posts: 426
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| Posted: Wed Nov 25, 2009 9:08 am Post subject: seeking comments on 914 |
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Thanks Paul,
That's all really interesting. I found your previous post where you mentioned that while you had the engine off, you were going to try to address some cooling issues. What sort of cooling issues were you having?
Regarding the prop balancing, what prop were you using? Were you finding that it was getting out of balance?
Ken
On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 2:36 PM, Paul McAllister <l_luv2_fly(at)yahoo.com (l_luv2_fly(at)yahoo.com)> wrote:
[quote]Hi Ken,
I see that you have already got a number of responses to your question. I have a 914 in my Europa that has about 850 hours on it. In terms of maintenance I did the following:
- Changed the oil every 25 and oil + filter every 50 using a synthetic blend (More that what Rotax specify)
- Kept the carburetors balanced at all times.
- Replaced the plugs regularly and always ensured that they were correctly gapped
- Had the gear box shims checked every 300 hours (More that what Rotax specify)
- Keep the propeller dynamically balanced, that is to say, I had it balanced every time I removed it.
- Used a pre heater in the winter
My engine has always been very reliable, but unfortunately developed a leak on the crank case. I had the engine stripped and there was evidence of fretting, which although happens is unusual. Just call me lucky I guess. The upside was that when was a part the Rotax mechanic could not see any signs of wear in any part of the engine. I asked him should I at least throw a set of rings in it while it was apart but he assured me that it was a waste of money. The only thing he wanted me to do was to change it to a fully synthetic oil.
Based on my experience a 914 should see the 1200 hour TBO and beyond if you take care of it.
Would I buy one again.... I have to say at $30k + they sure are a chunk of change, but in the right application they are a "kick ass" little engine. I easily see 150 knots TAS in the 8000 ~ 12000 feet range for 28" of MP using 5.3 ~ 5.5 US gallons per hour. As many others have said, it depends on your mission profile.
Regards, Paul
| Quote: |
_blank">www.aeroelectric.com
.com" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com
="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List
tp://forums.matronics.com
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l_luv2_fly(at)yahoo.com
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Nov 26, 2009 10:05 am Post subject: seeking comments on 914 |
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From: Ken Ryan <keninalaska(at)gmail.com>
To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Wed, November 25, 2009 11:07:51 AM
Subject: Re: seeking comments on 914
Thanks Paul,
That's all really interesting. I found your previous post where you mentioned that while you had the engine off, you were going to try to address some cooling issues. What sort of cooling issues were you having?
I think its safe to say that all 914 powered Europa's have a variety of cooling issues, mine overheats on the ground after about 15 minutes, it is too cool in cruise and over heats in the climb. Working through these issues has turned into "quest". There wasn't much research done on water cooled aero engines after WW2, but between what I have learned from old research papers and the LongEze / VairEze canard communities on cooling in general I have decided there is not one thing right about the cooling design on the Europa. Working through this has turned into a science experiment. I am happy to share what I have done, but until I get flying again and test it over a wide range of ambient temperatures and flight conditions it probably isn't of much value. Heck, I might end up back at square one, who knows, but then that is the beauty of experimental aircraft.
Regarding the prop balancing, what prop were you using? Were you finding that it was getting out of balance?
I have an Airmaster. There are no issues with its getting out of balance on its own, I was just taking a "Belt and braces" approach and assuming that taking it on and off had the potential to affect its balance. It is easy for me because I have access to a dynamic balance machine that I can use at any time. With that said, propeller balance is one of the many factors that will impact engine life.
Ken
[quote][b]
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