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Monowheel Flap Operation

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flyingphil2

Joined: 04 Dec 2009
Posts: 117

Posted: Wed Dec 30, 2009 5:33 am Post subject: Monowheel Flap Operation

Hi,



I'm just following up on something I read on a recent thread and had thought of before.



The thread mentioned that "a few of the mono builders are opting for the trike flap drive".  I'm not flying a mono yet but have flown in them and had noticed that they take off with full flap.  It had occurred to me that the flap drive motor may be a better idea.  



I'm not sure how you would deal with the outriggers but what do mono pilots think about this?  There is the drag of full flap on take off and the pitch change when you put it away.  Having said that, the person I flew with partially raised the gear and allowed it to float at half flap for a short while whilst climbing out to reduce the pitch change.  Is that the best technique to use or is fitting a motor and making the flaps independent of undercarriage better or is there in fact no problem at all?



Regards,



Phil

peterz(at)zutrasoft.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 30, 2009 6:19 am Post subject: Monowheel Flap Operation

I wonder how disconnecting the flaps from the gear affects the insurance rates (ie- a more complex aircraft)?



For sure it would make it a whole lot easier to land gear-up.



Cheers,

Pete

A239



 On Wed, Dec 30, 2009 at 8:34 AM, flyingphil2 <ptiller(at)lolacars.com (ptiller(at)lolacars.com)> wrote:

[quote] --> Europa-List message posted by: "flyingphil2" <ptiller(at)lolacars.com (ptiller(at)lolacars.com)>

 

 Hi,

 

 I'm just following up on something I read on a recent thread and had thought of before.

 

 The thread mentioned that "a few of the mono builders are opting for the trike flap drive". �I'm not flying a mono yet but have flown in them and had noticed that they take off with full flap. �It had occurred to me that the flap drive motor may be a better idea.

  

 I'm not sure how you would deal with the outriggers but what do mono pilots think about this? �There is the drag of full flap on take off and the pitch change when you put it away. �Having said that, the person I flew with partially raised the gear and allowed it to float at half flap for a short while whilst climbing out to reduce the pitch change. �Is that the best technique to use or is fitting a motor and making the flaps independent of undercarriage better or is there in fact no problem at all?

  

 Regards,

 

 Phil

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=279195#279195

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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 le, List Admin.

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loboloda(at)execulink.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 30, 2009 6:50 am Post subject: Monowheel Flap Operation

Hi Pete,

The insurer will not ask the question,� I doubt that it will affect the premium one way or the other.



I find that the Tri-gear needs about 20 degrees of flap on take off, so there may not be much advantage to adding an electric flap drive to a mono.

Dave A061�



:

[quote]I wonder how disconnecting the flaps from the gear affects the insurance rates (ie- a more complex aircraft)?



Pete

A239



 	  Quote: 	
		  

 

 The thread mentioned that "a few of the mono builders are opting for the trike flap drive". �I'm not flying a mono yet but have flown in them and had noticed that they take off with full flap. �It had occurred to me that the flap drive motor may be a better idea.

 



 

 Phil

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=279195#279195

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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 ooks.com" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com

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 le, List Admin.

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 target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List

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 http://forums.matronics.com

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[b]

rlborger(at)mac.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 30, 2009 6:52 am Post subject: Monowheel Flap Operation

Phil,



FWIW, from my massive 20 hours and 50 or so takeoffs and landings in my monowheel.  I see it as a solution in search of a non-existent problem. 



On takeoff, I find the best procedure is to gain some comfortable airspeed and altitude, slip the gear lever out of the down-notch and slide it forward at a pace that allow you to compensate for the pitch change and provides minimal change in rate of climb.  If you just pop the gear handle out of the down-notch and slap it smartly forward into the up-notch, you have a rapid pitch change, climb stops and you may settle some before you accelerate out and begin to climb again.  



For landing, just the opposite.  Arrive in the pattern, slow below the 80 kt flap extension speed, take the gear handle out of the up-notch and bring it smartly aft and into the down-notch, make sure the down-lock is in place.  It gets the pitch change out of the way without much fuss, you are in landing configuration and the gear is down and locked.  If you start messing with a slow, cautious extension at various places along the pattern, you will be distracted somewhere along the way and the gear won't end up down and locked.  I also see the potential for one of the outriggers not making it into the down latch if the handle isn't operated smartly.  



Just my 2 cents worth.  I'm sure there will be other procedures and opinions.



Wishing all a Most Prosperous New Year!



Check six,

Bob Borger

Europa XS Monowheel, Intercooled Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S prop.

Hoping for weather warm enough that I can complete the fuel system mods this weekend.

On Wednesday, December 30, 2009, at 07:34AM, "flyingphil2" <ptiller(at)lolacars.com> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



Hi,



I'm just following up on something I read on a recent thread and had thought of before.



The thread mentioned that "a few of the mono builders are opting for the trike flap drive".  I'm not flying a mono yet but have flown in them and had noticed that they take off with full flap.  It had occurred to me that the flap drive motor may be a better idea.  



I'm not sure how you would deal with the outriggers but what do mono pilots think about this?  There is the drag of full flap on take off and the pitch change when you put it away.  Having said that, the person I flew with partially raised the gear and allowed it to float at half flap for a short while whilst climbing out to reduce the pitch change.  Is that the best technique to use or is fitting a motor and making the flaps independent of undercarriage better or is there in fact no problem at all?



Regards,



Phil





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 79195#279195

grahamsingleton(at)btinte
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 30, 2009 6:54 am Post subject: Monowheel Flap Operation

Phil

imho, yes it is. There is no load on the flap drive, all flight loads 

are taken along the flap hangers except perhaps a bit of skin friction. 

The flap should stay anywhere you put it in flight without having to 

hold the lever. Only load on the lever is the weight of the gear, hence 

the importance of the bungee and its tension

Graham



flyingphil2 wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		    Having said that, the person I flew with partially raised the gear and allowed it to float at half flap for a short while whilst climbing out to reduce the pitch change.  Is that the best technique to use or is fitting a motor and making the flaps independent of undercarriage better or is there in fact no problem at all?



 Regards,



 Phil

grahamsingleton(at)btinte
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 30, 2009 6:58 am Post subject: Monowheel Flap Operation

Bob

you put it better than I did. Worth more than 2 cents 

Graham



Bob Borger wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   For landing, just the opposite.  Arrive in the pattern, slow below the 80 kt flap extension speed, take the gear handle out of the up-notch and bring it smartly aft and into the down-notch, make sure the down-lock is in place.  It gets the pitch change out of the way without much fuss, you are in landing configuration and the gear is down and locked.  If you start messing with a slow, cautious extension at various places along the pattern, you will be distracted somewhere along the way and the gear won't end up down and locked.  I also see the potential for one of the outriggers not making it into the down latch if the handle isn't operated smartly.  



 Just my 2 cents worth.  I'm sure there will be other procedures and opinions.



 Wishing all a Most Prosperous New Year!



 Check six,

 Bob Borger

fklein(at)orcasonline.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 30, 2009 7:09 am Post subject: Monowheel Flap Operation

..an interesting topic...as a mono-builder, I've put in the hardpoint  

for the flap motor as per the trigear supplement to facilitate  

possible future conversion...remains to be determined how, in such an  

event, I would retract the outriggers...Eric Trombley, if I recall  

correctly, has an electric outrigger retract system which buries the  

entire assembly within the Classic foam wing; I know of several  

electric retract installations which leave the pivoting assembly  

intact. OTOH, I know of one Brit who leaves his outriggers down all  

the time as he is convinced and confident that stowing them does not  

reduce drag by a measurable amount.



..for anyone who has pretty much followed the build manual and is  

concerned about finishing his bird too soon, I'd say that this topic  

would take one off at a suitable tangent and suck up 6 months to a  

year...bearing in mind that the proper operation of the outrigger  

system is mission critical every time you land. I'm content to leave  

this sleeping dog lie (or is it lay?).



Notwithstanding my personal aviation mantra ("always manage the degree  

of novelty"), I've become somewhat of a deviant in my Europa build so  

I'm no one to talk...satisfying, but it definitely impacts time before  

first flight.



a penny's worth,



Fred

A194

rampil

Joined: 04 May 2007
Posts: 870

Posted: Wed Dec 30, 2009 7:29 am Post subject: Re: Monowheel Flap Operation

Hi Pete,



I am curious about your comment that the trike needs 20 (essentially full)

flaps selected for takeoff.  That does not match my experience, which

addmittedly is not huge and 99% on hard surface, but includes 256 hrs,

and over 600 landings or T&G.



I use flaps with measureable salutory effect when the DA exceeds 2500',

and then I only use 10 degrees. Without flaps and a DA < 1000', I am usually passing 50' altitude by 1000' of runway (no pax of course), and

climb rate at Vy usually exceeds 1000 fpm comfortably.



Can you please tell us more about your experience in why need flaps for

takeoff?



Happy New Year,



Ira

_________________
Ira N224XS

topglock(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 30, 2009 8:50 am Post subject: Monowheel Flap Operation

I use about 10 degrees, flap on hard surfaces and 15 degrees or so on 

turf, as a general rule.  circumstances may dictate some deviation from 

these practices, of course.  BTW, I've found that the Tri-gear doesn't 

"require" flaps, at all, for t/o and landing.  They are simply a 

convenience...



Jeff - Baby Blue



rampil wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 Hi Pete,

 

 I am curious about your comment that the trike needs 20 (essentially full)

 flaps selected for takeoff.  That does not match my experience, which

 addmittedly is not huge and 99% on hard surface, but includes 256 hrs,

 and over 600 landings or T&G.

 

 I use flaps with measureable salutory effect when the DA exceeds 2500',

 and then I only use 10 degrees. Without flaps and a DA < 1000', I am usually passing 50' altitude by 1000' of runway (no pax of course), and

 climb rate at Vy usually exceeds 1000 fpm comfortably.

 

 Can you please tell us more about your experience in why need flaps for

 takeoff?

 

 Happy New Year,

 

 Ira

 

 --------

 Ira N224XS

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 79215#279215

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 ------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

 Checked by AVG - www.avg.com

loboloda(at)execulink.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 30, 2009 2:08 pm Post subject: Monowheel Flap Operation

Hi Ira,



Blame me for that, not Pete.

I usually fly with a passenger ( hope he has not put on weight over  

the holidays ), and am at max weight,

also with the 2 of us the C of G is near the front end of the  

envelope. This may explain why to me the take off

goes better with more flap. I've tried no flap take offs, but the  

ground run seems longer.

Years ago Jim Thursby suggested full down aileron and matching the  

flap to this, I took this to be about 20 degrees, but perhaps that is  

not the case.



Dave A061

On 30-Dec-09, at 10:29 AM, rampil wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Hi Pete,



 I am curious about your comment that the trike needs 20  

 (essentially full)

 flaps selected for takeoff.  That does not match my experience, which

 addmittedly is not huge and 99% on hard surface, but includes 256 hrs,

 and over 600 landings or T&G.



 I use flaps with measureable salutory effect when the DA exceeds  

 2500',

 and then I only use 10 degrees. Without flaps and a DA < 1000', I  

 am usually passing 50' altitude by 1000' of runway (no pax of  

 course), and

 climb rate at Vy usually exceeds 1000 fpm comfortably.



 Can you please tell us more about your experience in why need flaps  

 for

 takeoff?



 Happy New Year,



 Ira



 --------

 Ira N224XS





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 79215#279215

flyingphil2

Joined: 04 Dec 2009
Posts: 117

Posted: Fri Jan 01, 2010 10:01 am Post subject: Re: Monowheel Flap Operation

Thanks for the replies.  Sounds like the problem is non-existent - I'll continue the build as per manual....



Regards,



Phil

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