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STUCK PROP FLANGE BOLT- HELP ME PLEASE

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MHerder

Joined: 11 Feb 2008
Posts: 143
Location: Fort Worth TX

Posted: Sun Feb 28, 2010 9:31 pm Post subject: STUCK PROP FLANGE BOLT- HELP ME PLEASE

Guys I'm having a really crappy night.

This evening I decided to prepare for the final installation of my 2.5" prop hub extension on my 3300.  In strict accordance with the service bulletins I heated the flange and bolts while protecting the rubber seals with a wet rag and I safely removed all six bolts.  SUCCESS... I thought.

I thouroghly  removed all of the loctite with a dental pick, then acetone on the female side.  I then used a steel brush and cleaned the female threads.  I then cleaned the bolts with a wire brush on a wheel. Acetone 3 or four more times, cleaning very  thuroghtly, making sure not to get oils from my hands on the bolts.  Cleaning, blowing with compressed air, acetone repeat... Maybe even too many times, but I was determined to not screw this up!!!.



As a final check I  decided to make sure that all was well and hand screwed the bolt in to make sure that it went in smoothly.  I used the same bolt on three holes and it went in pretty dang smooth.  The third one was nearly all the way in (about 1/8" less than all the way in (simulating prop flange thickness)) and then it got stuck!!  I thought surely it can't really be stuck, I'm not cross threaded and it went in smooth.  So I got out my wrench to back it out.  Now it's stuck enough that it turns over the engine and I don't have the prop flange on so it's tricky to keep the engine from turning over.  



I only have two theories as to how this could have happened.



1)  A little bit of steel from my brush has lodged itself in between the threads???



2)  The cleaning action of my steel brush rounded off the threads a bit  and is causing an extremely tight fit?



3)  The loctite 620 that I thought was completely cleaned off was actually still there in a residual form and the acetone that I thought was dry was still a little wet and reactivated the 620??  This one is a long shot.  As I really cleaned these puppies.



I need help and worst case scenarios here.  I am going to have nightmares about having to replace a crankshaft on account of this.  



What would a good machinist do to get this thing out?

_________________
Zodiac 601 HD
Jabiru 3300
Wood Sensinich 64x47
Finally Flying

selwyn

Joined: 12 Mar 2008
Posts: 102
Location: Australia

Posted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 2:57 am Post subject: Re: STUCK PROP FLANGE BOLT- HELP ME PLEASE

Don't know what a good machinist would do, but I'd get a mate with a big screwdriver in the ring gear to stop the crank turning and allow you to get some purchase on the stud.  You could also apply some heat as before.

_________________
Cheers, Selwyn
Kit 66 VH-ELZ

naftalih(at)hotmail.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 3:59 am Post subject: STUCK PROP FLANGE BOLT- HELP ME PLEASE

You can grab the crank with a pipe wrench and a rag in between.

[quote] Subject: STUCK PROP FLANGE BOLT- HELP ME PLEASE

 From: michaelherder(at)beckgroup.com

 Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2010 21:31:51 -0800

 To: jabiruengine-list(at)matronics.com

 --> JabiruEngine-List message posted by: "MHerder" <michaelherder(at)beckgroup.com>

 Guys I'm having a really crappy night.

 This evening I decided to prepare for the final installation of my 2.5" prop hub extension on my 3300. In strict accordance with the service bulletins I heated the flange and bolts while protecting the rubber seals with a wet rag and I safely removed all six bolts. SUCCESS... I thought.

 I thouroghly removed all of the loctite with a dental pick, then acetone on the female side. I then used a steel brush and cleaned the female threads. I then cleaned the bolts with a wire brush on a wheel. Acetone 3 or four more times, cleaning very thuroghtly, making sure not to get oils from my hands on the bolts. Cleaning, blowing with compressed air, acetone repeat... Maybe even too many times, but I was determined to not screw this up!!!.

 As a final check I decided to make sure that all was well and hand screwed the bolt in to make sure that it went in smoothly. I used the same bolt on three holes and it went in pretty dang smooth. The third one was nearly all the way in (about 1/8" less than all the way in (simulating prop flange thickness)) and then it got stuck!! I thought surely it can't really be stuck, I'm not cross threaded and it went in smooth. So I got out my wrench to back it out. Now it's stuck enough that it turns over the engine and I don't have the prop flange on so it's tricky to keep the engine from turning over. 

 I only have two theories as to how this could have happened.

 1) A little bit of steel from my brush has lodged itself in between the threads???

 2) The cleaning action of my steel brush rounded off the threads a bit and is causing an extremely tight fit?

 3) The loctite 620 that I thought was completely cleaned off was actually still there in a residual form and the acetone that I thought was dry was still a little wet and reactivated the 620?? This one is a long shot. As I really cleaned these puppies.

 I need help and worst case scenarios here. I am going to have nightmares about having to replace a crankshaft on account of this. 

 What would a good machinist do to get this thing out?

 --------

 One Rivet at a Time!

 Read this topic online here:

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=288699#288699

 > 

 		 	   		  Hotmail: PowerGBL/go/201469230/direct/01/' target='_new'>Get it now.   	  Quote: 	
		  [b]

elleryweld(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 5:53 am Post subject: STUCK PROP FLANGE BOLT- HELP ME PLEASE

I cant help but to tell you to " FIRE " your mechanic  ..........Doesn't that Crank shaft have Threaded inserts Pushed into that Crankflange  if so  you could cut the bolt get everything out of your way and push that Treaded insert out of the Crank and install a new one 

 

     Ellery Batchelder Jr.

 

 

 

   --

MHerder

Joined: 11 Feb 2008
Posts: 143
Location: Fort Worth TX

Posted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 7:18 am Post subject: Re: STUCK PROP FLANGE BOLT- HELP ME PLEASE

Heres a couple photos

P1010510.JPG

Description:

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2.18 MB

Viewed:

9689 Time(s)

_________________
Zodiac 601 HD
Jabiru 3300
Wood Sensinich 64x47
Finally Flying

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 7:37 am Post subject: STUCK PROP FLANGE BOLT- HELP ME PLEASE

OUCH! I don't like the idea of pipe wrenches anywhere near the  

crankshaft....maybe that's just me, though. The best idea would be a  

flywheel turner, but I'm guessing you won't have one, so how about  

some c-clamps applied to the flywheel, over thin plywood...1/4" or  

so...so as to not mar the flywheel. Locate the clamps so they bear  

against something other than the coil mounts or the "spider" that  

supports the alternator...perhaps a strategically located 2x4 that  

the clamp could bear against while you attempt to remove the stuck bolt.

If the pipe wrench is gonna do any good, it must bite into something,  

and I don't think the rag is that something....unless it doesn't take  

very much to loosen that stuck bolt.

Could you stand the engine on its' rear and let some Liquid Wrench  

soak into the problem hole? Or maybe more acetone if that doesn't  

help. Try turning the bolt back in a little, and then back and forth  

while the penetrating fluid does its thing.

Another method might be to drill the naughty bolt  

lengthwise....you'll know when you've drilled through the  

bolt.....and apply oil, or...maybe a bit extreme....tap the end of  

the bolt with a 1/4-28 tap and screw in a Zerk fitting, apply a  

grease gun and lube from the inside out. I think most hardware store  

Zerk fittings are 1/4-28, but get the fittings before tapping. Then  

do the back and forth thing with the allen wrench, and you might get  

lucky.

The next time, I'd cut a groove into one of the old bolts (you're  

gonna use 6 new bolts, right? RIGHT!) so it resembles a tap, with a  

sharp "leading edge" and use that to clean out the crap inside the  

bolt holes. Then oil up one or more of the new bolts, and try them  

for depth of penetration, like you were doing. Then wash them and the  

holes again, and proceed according to the instructions via Jabiru.

Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, #2062, 860.4 hrs (since 3-27-2006)

Countdown to 1000 hrs~140 to go(145 days to go)

Sensenich 62"x46" Wood (summer)

Sensenich 55.5" x 46" Wood (winter)

Electroair direct-fire ignition system

Rotec TBI-40 injection

Status: flying (and learning)

On Mar 1, 2010, at 6:45 AM, Naftali Horowitz wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   You can grab the crank with a pipe wrench and a rag in between.

 > Subject: STUCK PROP FLANGE BOLT- HELP ME PLEASE

 > From: michaelherder(at)beckgroup.com

 > Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2010 21:31:51 -0800

 > To: jabiruengine-list(at)matronics.com

 >

 > 

 <michaelherder(at)beckgroup.com>

 >

 > Guys I'm having a really crappy night.

 >

 >

 > This evening I decided to prepare for the final installation of  

 my 2.5" prop hub extension on my 3300. In strict accordance with  

 the service bulletins I heated the flange and bolts while  

 protecting the rubber seals with a wet rag and I safely removed all  

 six bolts. SUCCESS... I thought.

 >

 >

 > I thouroghly removed all of the loctite with a dental pick, then  

 acetone on the female side. I then used a steel brush and cleaned  

 the female threads. I then cleaned the bolts with a wire brush on a  

 wheel. Acetone 3 or four more times, cleaning very thuroghtly,  

 making sure not to get oils from my hands on the bolts. Cleaning,  

 blowing with compressed air, acetone repeat... Maybe even too many  

 times, but I was determined to not screw this up!!!.

 >

 > As a final check I decided to make sure that all was well and  

 hand screwed the bolt in to make sure that it went in smoothly. I  

 used the same bolt on three holes and it went in pretty dang  

 smooth. The third one was nearly all the way in (about 1/8" less  

 than all the way in (simulating prop flange thickness)) and then it  

 got stuck!! I thought surely it can't really be stuck, I'm not  

 cross threaded and it went in smooth. So I got out my wrench to  

 back it out. Now it's stuck enough that it turns over the engine  

 and I don't have the prop flange on so it's tricky to keep the  

 engine from turning over.

 >

 > I only have two theories as to how this could have happened.

 >

 > 1) A little bit of steel from my brush has lodged itself in  

 between the threads???

 >

 > 2) The cleaning action of my steel brush rounded off the threads  

 a bit and is causing an extremely tight fit?

 >

 > 3) The loctite 620 that I thought was completely cleaned off was  

 actually still there in a residual form and the acetone that I  

 thought was dry was still a little wet and reactivated the 620??  

 This one is a long shot. As I really cleaned these puppies.

 >

 > I need help and worst case scenarios here. I am going to have  

 nightmares about having to replace a crankshaft on account of this.

 >

 > What would a good machinist do to get this thing out?

 >

 > --------

 > One Rivet at a Time!

 >

 >

 >

 >

 > Read this topic online here:

 >

 > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=288699#288699

 >

 >

 >

 > >

 >

 >

 Hotmail: PowerGBL/go/201469230/direct/01/' target='_new'>Get it  

 ============================================================ _- 

 ============================================================ _- 

 contribution_- 

 ============================================================

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

MHerder

Joined: 11 Feb 2008
Posts: 143
Location: Fort Worth TX

Posted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 8:10 am Post subject: Re: STUCK PROP FLANGE BOLT- HELP ME PLEASE

My wheels are turning in my head and I think Iâ€™ve devised a plan. 



I will take the old and otherwise useless old prop flange off, I will then drill one of the holes in said flange (old and useless one) big enough that it fits over the the cap (head) of the allen bolt.



I will then thoroughly reclean and oil the other holes (to make sure that I donâ€™t repeat this debacle) and put at least three bolts into the flange old flange that, and at least now I will have something to keep the engine from turning over now.  The real question is, am I going to snap the head of this bolt and if I do, what is plan B?



Has anyone ever broken the cap bolt off, and if so how did you recover from that folly?

Any objections?

_________________
Zodiac 601 HD
Jabiru 3300
Wood Sensinich 64x47
Finally Flying

tonyplane(at)bellsouth.ne
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 8:11 am Post subject: STUCK PROP FLANGE BOLT- HELP ME PLEASE

MIchael,

  

 Just in case you have not tried it, See the NOTE at the bottom of page 1 of JSB 022-1 dated 10/23/01:   

  

 "NOTE:  To prevent crankshaft from turning, use a suitable tool & lock the crankshaft.  This is done by positioing a tool on the ring gear teeth or with a bar under the first set of flhywheel magnets & the reas set of magnets."

  

 I used a large screwdriver wedged in a ring gear tooth, and the same to check torque at annuals.

  

  

 Tony Graziano

  

 N493TGl; 558 smooth running hrs on  Jab3300A  #33A644

 

   From: MHerder <michaelherder(at)beckgroup.com>

To: jabiruengine-list(at)matronics.com

Sent: Sun, February 28, 2010 11:31:51 PM

Subject: STUCK PROP FLANGE BOLT- HELP ME PLEASE



--> JabiruEngine-List message posted by: "MHerder" <michaelherder(at)beckgroup.com (michaelherder(at)beckgroup.com)>



Guys I'm having a really crappy night.

This evening I decided to prepare for the final installation of my 2.5" prop hub extension on my 3300.  In strict accordance with the service bulletins I heated the flange and bolts while protecting the rubber seals with a wet rag and I safely removed all six bolts.  SUCCESS... I thought.

I  thouroghly  removed all of the loctite with a dental pick, then acetone on the female side.  I then used a steel brush and cleaned the female threads.  I then cleaned the bolts with a wire brush on a wheel. Acetone 3 or four more times, cleaning very  thuroghtly, making sure not to get oils from my hands on the bolts.  Cleaning, blowing with compressed air, acetone repeat... Maybe even too many times, but I was determined to not screw this up!!!.



As a final check I  decided to make sure that all was well and hand screwed the bolt in to make sure that it went in smoothly.  I used the same bolt on three holes and it went in pretty dang smooth.  The third one was nearly all the way in (about 1/8" less than all the way in (simulating prop flange thickness)) and then it got stuck!!  I thought surely it can't really be stuck, I'm not cross threaded and it went in smooth.  So I got out my wrench to back  it out.  Now it's stuck enough that it turns over the engine and I don't have the prop flange on so it's tricky to keep the engine from turning over.  



I only have two theories as to how this could have happened.



1)  A little bit of steel from my brush has lodged itself in between the threads???



2)  The cleaning action of my steel brush rounded off the threads a bit  and is causing an extremely tight fit?



3)  The loctite 620 that I thought was completely cleaned off was actually still there in a residual form and the acetone that I thought was dry was still a little wet and reactivated the 620??  This one is a long shot.  As I really cleaned these puppies.



I need help and worst case scenarios here.  I am going to have nightmares about having to replace a crankshaft on account of this.  



What would a good machinist do to get this thing out?



--------

One  Rivet at a Time!





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=288699#288699



  [quote][b]

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 9:43 am Post subject: STUCK PROP FLANGE BOLT- HELP ME PLEASE

The tool they are referring to consists of a 1/2" square, long bar,  

with an offset bar hinged to it, and it is applied to the flywheel to  

hold it in place, either using a helper, or just letting the long bar  

end rest against the motor mount or something stable. This "flywheel  

turning tool" is pretty cheap, and I've had one in my toolbox for  

years....I'll bet the one I've got cost more than the ones available  

today (think Harbor Freight) : )



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, #2062, 860.4 hrs (since 3-27-2006)

Countdown to 1000 hrs~140 to go(145 days to go)

Sensenich 62"x46" Wood (summer)

Sensenich 55.5" x 46" Wood (winter)

Electroair direct-fire ignition system

Rotec TBI-40 injection

Status: flying (and learning)

On Mar 1, 2010, at 11:03 AM, tonyplane wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   MIchael,



 Just in case you have not tried it, See the NOTE at the bottom of  

 page 1 of JSB 022-1 dated 10/23/01:



 "NOTE:  To prevent crankshaft from turning, use a suitable tool &  

 lock the crankshaft.  This is done by positioing a tool on the ring  

 gear teeth or with a bar under the first set of flhywheel magnets &  

 the reas set of magnets."



 I used a large screwdriver wedged in a ring gear tooth, and the  

 same to check torque at annuals.

 Tony Graziano



 N493TGl; 558 smooth running hrs on  Jab3300A  #33A644

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

Roger Lee

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1464
Location: Tucson, Az.

Posted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 3:31 pm Post subject: Re: STUCK PROP FLANGE BOLT- HELP ME PLEASE

What have you been using to heat the area with? If it is just a heat gun then use a propane torch. You aren't getting it hot enough. Heat the area around the bolt a little hotter and quicker it will come out. You are not trying to make this red hot just hotter than the heat gun will get it. Don't apply any heat to the bolt.

_________________
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Rotax Instructor & Rotax IRC
Light Sport Repairman
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056

chuck960

Joined: 11 Mar 2009
Posts: 44
Location: PA

Posted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 7:15 pm Post subject: Re: STUCK PROP FLANGE BOLT- HELP ME PLEASE

Soaking penetrating fluid into the threads overnight might help.

You might have broken a thread and it's locked the bolt.

Sometimes a little crap on the threads can make it seem like it will never budge and then a little lube and it's turning freely.

If you get the bolt to move you might have to turn it ccw and cw and try to get it to go further each time.

If you snap it off you have to drill it out an re-tap it. This can be done without damaging the hole but it takes some practice. Find someone that knows how to do this.

An easy out probably wont help if a hex wrench can't budge it.

Just some thoughts.

Lots of good advise above as well.

Chuck

Ch650/Jab3300

MHerder

Joined: 11 Feb 2008
Posts: 143
Location: Fort Worth TX

Posted: Thu Mar 04, 2010 8:49 pm Post subject: Re: STUCK PROP FLANGE BOLT- HELP ME PLEASE:UPDATE

Hey guys,



To all those that have helped including Pete at US Jabiru (working at 10PM on a weekday evening talking to the Aussies) Thanks a bunch.  Great customer support as usual.  At this point in time I have removed the bolt... That's the good news, the bad news is that some thread came with it.  I'd say that I still have half of the threads (deeper in) are entirely untouched, and that the "front" threads are damaged but still grab onto a bolt within a half a turn (so there is still a good bit of engagement).  



The direction given thus far from Jabiru has been to retap, clean up the threads and attempt to torque to full 30 ft #'s.  If I don't get the full torque value, we'll reinvestigate and look for some other solutions.



I've also purchased some longer UNBRAKO series 1960 Socket Cap screws as specified with material certficate data and will probably use a one inch bolt in lieu of the 3/4" standard for 1 of the six bolts.  I'll be sure to double check that it isn't bottoming out and giving me a false torque value, but my initial measurements show that it should not bottom out as the hole is nearly about .95" deep and the prop hub is about 5/16" plus a bellville washer.  I'll catch a few more threads than I would have if I used the 3/4".  I'll also be making every attempt possible to safety wire even though it may be damn near impossible deep in that hub..



If I was reading this post, I'd have been thinking that this is impossible and that this bone head MHERDER had to have cross threaded this thing.  While I'll admit that I have cross threaded many things in my life doing bone headed things, this was not one of those instances.  My only two theories as to how this could have happened are now revised.



1)  I got a little to agressive cleaning the bolts with the wire wheel and rounded off th threads.  However, please note that I used the same bolt to teast two other holes with no issues prior to the unlucky one...

2)  A piece of steel wire from my brush came loose in the hole that I was cleaning and caused it to jump a thread.

_________________
Zodiac 601 HD
Jabiru 3300
Wood Sensinich 64x47
Finally Flying

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