Matronics Email Lists :: View topic - Rotax 914 with 160HP!

Matronics Email Lists
Web Forum Interface to the Matronics Email Lists

Get Email Distribution Too! FAQ Search Memberlist Usergroups Register

Profile Log in to check your private messages Log in

Rotax 914 with 160HP!

Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> RotaxEngines-List

View previous topic :: View next topic

Author Message

rparigoris

Joined: 24 Nov 2009
Posts: 805

Posted: Wed Apr 14, 2010 6:19 pm Post subject: Rotax 914 with 160HP!

Here is a Rotax 914 that claims to produce 160HP for 5 minutes. It is unquestionably electrically dependent, unless you add Bobs mechanical fuel pump  :

http://www.wired.com/autopia/2009/07/hybrid-aviation/

Ron Parigoris

Just to open another can of worms I wonder if this whirling mass is direct connected to the non direct connected prop hub?

And another can of worms, do they get rid of the starter motor and save some weight?

And another can of worms, after 5 minutes of motor run, think they use the motor in reverse to charge things at a much faster rate than 12 amps from the internal generator?

And another can of worms, lets say you could use as a charger and can extract 15HP * approx 750 watts thats over 11K watts! Boy seat heat, cabin heat and several 250 watt landing lights, nah make thata half dozen 500 watt landing lights should not be a problem. Even though slightly inefficient Peltier AC/Heat instead of just heat?

And another can of worms, I wonder if the power booster electric motor is happy running on 10% Ethanol?

- The Matronics RotaxEngines-List Email Forum -

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List

rickofudall

Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1392
Location: Udall, KS, USA

Posted: Wed Apr 14, 2010 7:38 pm Post subject: Rotax 914 with 160HP!

Ron, I don't read anything in the article that says the prop isn't directly connected to the gearbox. How would the motor work as a starter if the prop weren't connected to the engine? Starter motors are geared down on the order of 20 to 1, using the electric motor as a starter would be geared UP 2.43 to 1. That belt is going to take a beating transferring power at that gear ratio. 

 There is no free lunch and the motor used as a generator is going to need some electronics to reverse it's polarity to feed out as a generator, not to mention it won't be 100% efficient doing it so more power loses for the engine. 

 Also not to mention that the 115 hp of the 914 isn't continuous power, that's only for 5 minutes. Continuous power is only 98.5 (at) 5500 RPM.

And about that regenerative power while descending. Typically geared engines only increase a hundred or two hundred RPM when unloaded during a descent so any power derived from the electric motor is going to come from burning gasoline, not from being an airborne windmill.

 Sounds to me like a lot of wishful thinking.

Hey, I've got a great idea, put electric motors on the main gear wheels to get more power for the take off roll. Yeah, I want my plane to be able to do burn outs, too. And maybe instead of ground loops we could do drifting.......

 Please take this in the humorous intent in which it is written. If you really want that extra power for take off NOx injection would give the same power for a hell of a lot less weight to drag around when it's not being used.

 



Rick Girard

On Wed, Apr 14, 2010 at 9:19 PM, rparigoris <rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.ny.us (rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.ny.us)> wrote:

 [quote]--> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: "rparigoris" <rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.ny.us (rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.ny.us)>

  

 Here is a Rotax 914 that claims to produce 160HP for 5 minutes. It is unquestionably electrically dependent, unless you add Bobs mechanical fuel pump  :

 http://www.wired.com/autopia/2009/07/hybrid-aviation/

 Ron Parigoris

 Just to open another can of worms I wonder if this whirling mass is direct connected to the non direct connected prop hub?

 And another can of worms, do they get rid of the starter motor and save some weight?

 And another can of worms, after 5 minutes of motor run, think they use the motor in reverse to charge things at a much faster rate than 12 amps from the internal generator?

 And another can of worms, lets say you could use as a charger and can extract 15HP * approx 750 watts thats over 11K watts! Boy seat heat, cabin heat and several 250 watt landing lights, nah make thata half dozen 500 watt landing lights should not be a problem. Even though slightly inefficient Peltier AC/Heat instead of just heat?

  And another can of worms, I wonder if the power booster electric motor is happy running on 10% Ethanol?

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=294278#294278

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 ===========

 -List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List

 ===========

 http://forums.matronics.com

 ===========

 le, List Admin.

 ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

 ===========

 

 

 

 [b]

- The Matronics RotaxEngines-List Email Forum -

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List

_________________
The smallest miracle right in front of you is enough to make you happy....

rparigoris

Joined: 24 Nov 2009
Posts: 805

Posted: Wed Apr 14, 2010 8:18 pm Post subject: Re: Rotax 914 with 160HP!

Hi Rick

I posted some of the notes TIC > but not completely.

I own two BMW Isettas. They incorporate Dynamos, put power in and they are a 1 to 1 electric motor for starting, reverse leads and then becomes a charger.

There is no speak of what electrical source they are using, but for certain it comes at a weight penalty. If you have 40 HP available and use it for starting, I don't care if you have a 5 to 1 ratio, it is going to crank a fairly low compression 4 cylinder 1.2 liter engine. I forget the watt output of starter motor, but think it less than 1 HP. I mention that the prop hub is not connected directly to gears but it is in fact connected. The dogs and pretensioned thrust springs "give", but not too much. Just like you can turn motor by hand from the prop, unless the electric motor has a spraigue type clutch I don't see any reason it would not function as a starter. The problem I do see is you need electronics so it doesn't spin things too fast at first with low oil pressure. Nothing a PWM ESC couldn't easily handle. they are now very "smart", not requiring sensors and vary timing to mapped configuration using RPM and load as factors.

It is a concept I think perhaps could have some validity. For instance lets take a 80HP 912. Not the most peppy motor for short field take offs if pitched for cruise. Lets keep things simple and keep fixed pitch prop, find a 15 to 20 HP 3 phase brushless motor and use the electric motor for take offs. Need be only 2 to 3 minutes that would allow 5750 RPM, kinda like a pseudo CS prop. Since the duty cycle is limited perhaps could use a very small motor that spins up high RPMs. Now with technology fastly moving lets say we use something like  Aerogel super capacitors for power. If you were able to get rid of starter motor weight may not be too bad. 

True you don't get something for nothing, but once in cruise could use that motor to charge capacitors and aid meek internal generator capability.

Guess it should be called a 913DBMN  (D for Dream But Maby Not)

When prototypes prove feasible, a integral starter, charger, WEP (War Emergency Power) unit could be fit to the end of crankshaft instead of current generator/flywheel.

Ron Parigoris

- The Matronics RotaxEngines-List Email Forum -

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List

litesellme(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 15, 2010 11:04 am Post subject: Rotax 914 with 160HP!

I make 170 HP. Take a 912s drop the pistons out and put a set of my forged 9:1 compression pistons in with a turbocharger and direct port fuel injection. Boost 7.5 PSI and you got it. 

 Jason

 Don't believe me take a look at the these videos

 http://www.youtube.com/user/RotaxKing#p/u/0/BXNZRiFd9oI

 http://www.youtube.com/user/RotaxKing#p/u/1/R3fBIIO7WAY[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A59JJ-5cHJc&feature=related][/url]

 



--- On Wed, 4/14/10, rparigoris <rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.ny.us> wrote:



  	  Quote: 	
		  

From: rparigoris <rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.ny.us>

Subject: Re: Rotax 914 with 160HP!

To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Wednesday, April 14, 2010, 9:18 PM



 --> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: "rparigoris" <rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.ny.us (rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.ny.us)>



Hi Rick

I posted some of the notes TIC > but not completely.

I own two BMW Isettas. They incorporate Dynamos, put power in and they are a 1 to 1 electric motor for starting, reverse leads and then becomes a charger.

There is no speak of what electrical source they are using, but for certain it comes at a weight penalty. If you have 40 HP available and use it for starting, I don't care if you have a 5 to 1 ratio, it is going to crank a fairly low compression 4 cylinder 1.2 liter engine. I forget the watt output of starter motor, but think it less than 1 HP. I mention that the prop hub is not connected directly to gears but it is in fact connected. The dogs and pretensioned thrust springs "give",  but not too much. Just like you can turn motor by hand from the prop, unless the electric motor has a spraigue type clutch I don't see any reason it would not function as a starter. The problem I do see is you need electronics so it doesn't spin things too fast at first with low oil pressure. Nothing a PWM ESC couldn't easily handle. they are now very "smart", not requiring sensors and vary timing to mapped configuration using RPM and load as factors.

It is a concept I think perhaps could have some validity. For instance lets take a 80HP 912. Not the most peppy motor for short field take offs if pitched for cruise. Lets keep things simple and keep fixed pitch prop, find a 15 to 20 HP 3 phase brushless motor and use the electric motor for take offs. Need be only 2 to 3 minutes that would allow 5750 RPM, kinda like a pseudo CS prop. Since the duty cycle is limited perhaps could use a very small motor that spins up high RPMs. Now with technology fastly  moving lets say we use something like  Aerogel super capacitors for power. If you were able to get rid of starter motor weight may not be too bad. 

True you don't get something for nothing, but once in cruise could use that motor to charge capacitors and aid meek internal generator capability.

Guess it should be called a 913DBMN  (D for Dream But Maby Not)

When prototypes prove feasible, a integral starter, charger, WEP (War Emergency Power) unit could be fit to the end of crankshaft instead of current generator/flywheel.

Ron Parigoris





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.phpsp; --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-Listhttp://www.matronics.com/cont================





	


         [quote][b]

- The Matronics RotaxEngines-List Email Forum -

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List

AV8ORJWC

Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 1149
Location: Aurora, Oregon "Home of VANS"

Posted: Thu Apr 15, 2010 12:03 pm Post subject: Rotax 914 with 160HP!

Jason, What fuel are you running?  It won't be Oregon Mogas E-85.  Do you have any knock sensors?  Can you Turbo Normalize and why not use the 914 with the Rotax Turbo as a base block?  

   

John Cox  

     

From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of jason Parker

 Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2010 12:03 PM

 To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Re: Rotax 914 with 160HP!  

  

              

I make 170 HP. Take a 912s drop the pistons out and put a   set of my forged 9:1 compression pistons in with a turbocharger and direct   port fuel injection. Boost 7.5 PSI and you got it.    

      

Jason   

      

Don't believe me take a look at the these videos   

      

http://www.youtube.com/user/RotaxKing#p/u/0/BXNZRiFd9oI   

      

http://www.youtube.com/user/RotaxKing#p/u/1/R3fBIIO7WAY   

      



   

   --- On Wed, 4/14/10, rparigoris <rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.ny.us>   wrote:   

    	  Quote: 	
		     



   From: rparigoris <rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.ny.us>

   Subject: Re: Rotax 914 with 160HP!

   To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com

   Date: Wednesday, April 14, 2010, 9:18 PM      

--> RotaxEngines-List message posted by:   "rparigoris" <rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.ny.us>

   

   Hi Rick

   I posted some of the notes TIC > but not completely.

   I own two BMW Isettas. They incorporate Dynamos, put power in and they are a   1 to 1 electric motor for starting, reverse leads and then becomes a charger.

   There is no speak of what electrical source they are using, but for certain   it comes at a weight penalty. If you have 40 HP available and use it for   starting, I don't care if you have a 5 to 1 ratio, it is going to crank a   fairly low compression 4 cylinder 1.2 liter engine. I forget the watt output   of starter motor, but think it less than 1 HP. I mention that the prop hub is   not connected directly to gears but it is in fact connected. The dogs and   pretensioned thrust springs "give", but not too much. Just like you   can turn motor by hand from the prop, unless the electric motor has a   spraigue type clutch I don't see any reason it would not function as a   starter. The problem I do see is you need electronics so it doesn't spin   things too fast at first with low oil pressure. Nothing a PWM ESC couldn't   easily handle. they are now very "smart", not requiring sensors and   vary timing to mapped configuration using RPM and load as factors.

   It is a concept I think perhaps could have some validity. For instance lets   take a 80HP 912. Not the most peppy motor for short field take offs if   pitched for cruise. Lets keep things simple and keep fixed pitch prop, find a   15 to 20 HP 3 phase brushless motor and use the electric motor for take offs.   Need be only 2 to 3 minutes that would allow 5750 RPM, kinda like a pseudo CS   prop. Since the duty cycle is limited perhaps could use a very small motor   that spins up high RPMs. Now with technology fastly moving lets say we use   something like  Aerogel super capacitors for power. If you were able to   get rid of starter motor weight may not be too bad. 

   True you don't get something for nothing, but once in cruise could use that   motor to charge capacitors and aid meek internal generator capability.

   Guess it should be called a 913DBMN  (D for Dream But Maby Not)

   When prototypes prove feasible, a integral starter, charger, WEP (War   Emergency Power) unit could be fit to the end of crankshaft instead of   current generator/flywheel.

   Ron Parigoris

   

   

   

   

   Read this topic online here:

   

   http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.phpsp; --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List<sp;  -->   http://www.matronics.com/cont================

   

   

      <![if !supportLineBreakNewLine]>   <![endif]>   

   	
   

         

   [quote]            - The RotaxEngines-List Email Forum -[/b][/b][/b][/b][/b]   --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List[b]               - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -[/b][/b]   --> http://forums.matronics.com[b]             - List Contribution Web Site -[/b]  Thank you for your generous support![/b]                              -Matt Dralle, List Admin.[/b]   --> http://www.matronics.com/contribution[/b] [b]

- The Matronics RotaxEngines-List Email Forum -

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List

Display posts from previous:

	Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> RotaxEngines-List	All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Page 1 of 1

Jump to:

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum