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Only Pilot on board during flight testing.

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Gary.A.Sobek

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 217
Location: SoCAL USA

Posted: Thu Apr 29, 2010 3:16 pm Post subject: Only Pilot on board during flight testing.

FAA Order 8130.2F has the operating limitations that are issued to Amateur Built Aircraft.



http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgOrders.nsf/0/77a132602a4e1f9a862576b3005d253d/$FILE/Order%208130.2F%20with%20change%205%20inc.pdf



One of the operating limitations (10) will say:



     Normal   0         false   false   false                             MicrosoftInternetExplorer4   <![endif]-->     <![endif]-->     /* Style Definitions */  table.MsoNormalTable 	{mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; 	mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; 	mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; 	mso-style-noshow:yes; 	mso-style-parent:""; 	mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; 	mso-para-margin:0in; 	mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; 	mso-pagination:widow-orphan; 	font-size:10.0pt; 	font-family:"Times New Roman"; 	mso-ansi-language:#0400; 	mso-fareast-language:#0400; 	mso-bidi-language:#0400;}  <![endif]-->"During the flight-testing phase, no person may be carried in this aircraft during flight unless that person is essential to the purpose of the flight."



That means NO passenger.  NO Flight Instructor.  No one on board other than the pilot.  Solo operation only.



Gary A. Sobek 

"My Sanity" RV-6 N157GS O-320 Hartzell, 

2,346+ Flying Hours So. CA, USA 



 	  Quote: 	
		   Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 14:24:43 -0400

 From: pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.net

 To: rv-list(at)matronics.com

 

 --> RV-List message posted by: Linn Walters <pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.net>

 

 I was under the impression that the single person requirement was only 

 for the first flight.  I hope someone will set me straight.

 Linn


	


 		 	   		  The New Busy think 9 to 5 is a cute idea. Combine multiple calendars with Hotmail.  Get busy.  [quote][b]

ralphmariafinch(at)gmail.
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 29, 2010 5:05 pm Post subject: Only Pilot on board during flight testing.

Couldn’t the owner/manufacturer of the aircraft determine that a skilled pilot in type, and a passenger to monitor readings (flight engineer), are both essential to the purpose of the flight[s], which is to perform various instrument and flight operational tests?  

   

Ralph Finch  

Davis, California  

RV-9A QB-SA  

       

From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of RV6 Flyer

 Sent: Thursday, April 29, 2010 4:14 PM

 To: RV List

 Subject: RE: Only Pilot on board during flight testing.  

  

  

   

FAA Order 8130.2F has the operating limitations that are issued to Amateur Built Aircraft.

 

 http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgOrders.nsf/0/77a132602a4e1f9a862576b3005d253d/$FILE/Order%208130.2F%20with%20change%205%20inc.pdf

 

 One of the operating limitations (10) will say:

 

 "During the flight-testing phase, no person may be carried in this aircraft during flight unless that person is essential to the purpose of the flight."

 

 That means NO passenger.  NO Flight Instructor.  No one on board other than the pilot.  Solo operation only.

 

 Gary A. Sobek 

 "My Sanity" RV-6 N157GS O-320 Hartzell, 

 2,346+ Flying Hours So. CA, USA 

 

   

   



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The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.

kboatright1(at)comcast.ne
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 29, 2010 5:23 pm Post subject: Only Pilot on board during flight testing.

If you carry a second crewman  during Phase 1 flight test, an accident investigator (heaven  forbid) or an FAA employee who ramp checked you would have a lot of  questions, and whatever your answers were, they probably wouldn't be good  enough.

  

 One pilot was enough to do the test flying on most  everything with an F at the beginning of the designation, including nasty beasts  like the F-104. In comparision our RV's are pretty simple, so I think it's  hard to legitimately claim that a second crewman is required. 

  

  

 [quote]   ---

Gary.A.Sobek

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 217
Location: SoCAL USA

Posted: Thu Apr 29, 2010 6:11 pm Post subject: Only Pilot on board during flight testing.

No. Solo flight only!



IF you were to make that argument of a second required crew member, then the FAA may FORCE you to always operate the aircraft with a REQUIRED CREW of TWO (2) and NO SOLO.  I am sure that you DO NOT want to go there.  I know I do not want to go there.



Gary A. Sobek 

"My Sanity" RV-6 N157GS O-320 Hartzell, 

2,346+ Flying Hours So. CA, USA 



From: ralphmariafinch(at)gmail.com

To: rv-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: RE: RV-List: RE: Only Pilot on board during flight testing.

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2010 18:03:17 -0700



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Couldn’t the owner/manufacturer of the aircraft determine that a skilled pilot in type, and a passenger to monitor readings (flight engineer), are both essential to the purpose of the flight[s], which is to perform various instrument and flight operational tests?  

   

Ralph Finch  

Davis, California  

RV-9A QB-SA  

       

From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of RV6 Flyer

 Sent: Thursday, April 29, 2010 4:14 PM

 To: RV List

 Subject: RE: Only Pilot on board during flight testing.  

  

  

   

FAA Order 8130.2F has the operating limitations that are issued to Amateur Built Aircraft.

 

 http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgOrders.nsf/0/77a132602a4e1f9a862576b3005d253d/$FILE/Order%208130.2F%20with%20change%205%20inc.pdf

 

 One of the operating limitations (10) will say:

 

 "During the flight-testing phase, no person may be carried in this aircraft during flight unless that person is essential to the purpose of the flight."

 

 That means NO passenger.  NO Flight Instructor.  No one on board other than the pilot.  Solo operation only.

 

 Gary A. Sobek 

 "My Sanity" RV-6 N157GS O-320 Hartzell, 

 2,346+ Flying Hours So. CA, USA 

 

   

   



__________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 5072 (20100429) __________



The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.



 	  Quote: 	
		  [url=http://www.matronics.com/N=== 	
 		 	   		  The New Busy think 9 to 5 is a cute idea. Combine multiple calendars with Hotmail.  Get busy.[/url]  [quote][b]

bartrim(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 29, 2010 6:32 pm Post subject: Only Pilot on board during flight testing.

If your aircraft is pretty standard with a standard aircraft engine, then I doubt you could convince the authorities of the need for a flight engineer. In my case I used an alternative engine, which my very experienced test pilot was very unfamiliar with, while I was intimately familiar with it, but vastly less experienced as a pilot (student). Transport Canada completely endorsed my plan to use a two person crew of a pilot and flight engineer, which went well. But they were clear that it wasn't usually accepted. IIRC, in most things the FAA and TC seem to be pretty close.

 

 YMMV

 

 Todd Bartrim

 13B RV9

 

 --

Bob Collins

Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 470
Location: St. Paul, Minnesota

Posted: Fri Apr 30, 2010 5:50 am Post subject: Only Pilot on board during flight testing.

[quote] I detect a slight inclination in this thread to figure out how to get around the obvious rules on this. Maybe I'm being paranoid, but if that's you.... please...please... please... don't ruin this for the rest of us. It only takes one person to crash and the rest of us own very expensive paperweights. Do not archive [b]

_________________
Bob Collins
St. Paul, Minn.
Letters from Flyover Country
http://rvnewsletter.blogspot.com/

ralphmariafinch(at)gmail.
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 30, 2010 1:46 pm Post subject: Only Pilot on board during flight testing.

No, not me anyway. I was genuinely curious about the flight test period.  I haven’t studied what’s supposed to occur during the 20 or 40 hours, but I know it’s more than boring circles in the sky…and I think one person to fly, and one to monitor instruments and collect data points, is perfectly valid, at least for some of the hours.  

   

RF  

       

From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Collins

 Sent: Friday, April 30, 2010 6:49 AM

 To: rv-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: RE: Only Pilot on board during flight testing.  

  

  

   

    	  Quote: 	
		   I detect a slight inclination in this thread to figure out how to get around the obvious rules on this. Maybe I'm being paranoid, but if that's you.... please...please... please... don't ruin this for the rest of us. It only takes one person to crash and the rest of us own very expensive paperweights. Do not archive    	
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		  It only takes one person to crash and the rest of us own very expensive paperweights. 	
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		  It only takes one person to crash and the rest of us own very expensive paperweights. 	
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 __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 5075 (20100430) __________

 

 The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.

 

  

   



__________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 5075 (20100430) __________



The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.

c.ennis(at)insightbb.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 30, 2010 3:33 pm Post subject: Only Pilot on board during flight testing.

It would "seem" to be perfectly valid, and probably is....but not in the eyes of the FAA. In my experiance during the first flight, circling the airport, one set of eyes on the guages is enough. It's amazing how much attention you pay when all those unknowns might rear their heads. Having said that, the first flight in your pride and joy should NOT be your first flight in an RV. Please, please, get 4, 5 or 6 hours training in an RV before you make your first flight in your homebuilt. THAT IS NOT THE TIME TO BECOME FAMILIAR WITH AN RV's HANDLING AND LANDING CHARACTERISTICS. Most of the engine questions can be investigated and attended to during ground runs and taxi-ing (is that a word?)  The other instruments, radios and bells and whistles can be checked during later flights more or less at your leisure, after you have discovered and learned any unexpected handling or landing quirks. 20 or 40 hours seems to be a long amount of time until you get into it...you will stay busy and learn about that machine you've built.

  Sorry to be so long winded, hope I've helped.

 Do not archive.

Subject: RE: RV-List: RE: Only Pilot on board during flight testing.

To: rv-list(at)matronics.com

 	  Quote: 	
		   No, not me anyway. I was genuinely curious about the flight test 

 period.  I

 haven't studied what's supposed to occur during the 20 or 40 

 hours, but I

 know it's more than boring circles in the sky.and I think one 

 person to fly,

 and one to monitor instruments and collect data points, is 

 perfectly valid,

 at least for some of the hours.

 RF

 From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com

 [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Collins

 Sent: Friday, April 30, 2010 6:49 AM

 To: rv-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: RV-List: RE: Only Pilot on board during flight testing.

  I detect a slight inclination in this thread to figure out 

 how to get

 around the obvious rules on this. Maybe I'm being paranoid, but 

 if that's

 you.... please...please... please... don't ruin this for the 

 rest of us.

 It only takes one person to crash and the rest of us own very 

 expensivepaperweights.

 Do not archive 

 __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of 

 virus signature

 database 5075 (20100430) __________

 The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.

larygagnon(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 30, 2010 3:34 pm Post subject: Only Pilot on board during flight testing.

Two options come to mind, one is a voice activated recorder that you can plug into your intercom or someone on the ground with a note pad who can write down the information for you.  Make up a list of things you want to record, EGT, CHT, fuel flows, temps and pressures, etc and just have someone plug in the numbers so you can review them later.

 

 Larry

 RV6   N6LG

 

   

 

  

   

 

   

 

  --

altoq(at)cebridge.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 30, 2010 4:09 pm Post subject: Only Pilot on board during flight testing.

Now! This is a good idea.

  



  From: larygagnon(at)aol.com (larygagnon(at)aol.com) 

 Sent: Friday, April 30, 2010 6:33 PM

 To: rv-list(at)matronics.com (rv-list(at)matronics.com) 

 Subject: Re: RE: Only Pilot on board during flight  testing.

 



 Two options come to  mind, one is a voice activated recorder that you can plug into your intercom or  someone on the ground with a note pad who can write down the information for  you.  Make up a list of things you want to record, EGT, CHT, fuel flows,  temps and pressures, etc and just have someone plug in the numbers so you can  review them later.



Larry

RV6   N6LG



 



 

 



 



 



 

    [quote][b]

RobHickman(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 30, 2010 4:23 pm Post subject: Only Pilot on board during flight testing.

Why don't you just download the data from the EFIS after the flight and  review it?

  

  

 Rob Hickman

 N402RH  RV-10

  

  

  In a message dated 4/30/2010 5:09:35 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,  altoq(at)cebridge.net writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		     Now! This is a good idea.

      



      From: larygagnon(at)aol.com (larygagnon(at)aol.com) 

   Sent: Friday, April 30, 2010 6:33 PM

   To: rv-list(at)matronics.com (rv-list(at)matronics.com) 

   Subject: Re: RE: Only Pilot on board during flight    testing.

   



   Two options come    to mind, one is a voice activated recorder that you can plug into your    intercom or someone on the ground with a note pad who can write down the    information for you.  Make up a list of things you want to record, EGT,    CHT, fuel flows, temps and pressures, etc and just have someone plug in the    numbers so you can review them later.



Larry

RV6      N6LG



   



   

   



   



   



 

 	  Quote: 	
		  



====================================

="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List

====================================

ms.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com

====================================

tp://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

====================================



	
	


  [quote][b]

HCRV6(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 30, 2010 4:30 pm Post subject: Only Pilot on board during flight testing.

The owner/manufacturer might determine that, but the FAA has clearly taken the position that no passengers are allowed during phase one testing, period.  Doesn't make a bit of difference to them whether you call the passenger a "flight engineer" or ballast, it's still not allowed. 



Harry Crosby

RV-6 N16CX, 680 hours



---

Robin(at)PaintTheWeb.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 30, 2010 5:00 pm Post subject: Only Pilot on board during flight testing.

My thoughts exactly…  

   

http://www.cirrusreports.com/flights/N110EE/  

   

Robin  

       

From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of RobHickman(at)aol.com (RobHickman(at)aol.com)

 Sent: Friday, April 30, 2010 5:22 PM

 To: rv-list(at)matronics.com (rv-list(at)matronics.com)

 Subject: Re: RE: Only Pilot on board during flight testing.  

  

  

     

Why don't you just download the data from the EFIS after the flight and review it?  

    

   

    

   

    

Rob Hickman  

    

N402RH  RV-10  

    

   

    

   

  [quote] [b]

dave.saylor.aircrafters(a
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 30, 2010 7:24 pm Post subject: Only Pilot on board during flight testing.

EFIS is my co-pilot...



do not archive

Dave Saylor

AirCrafters LLC

140 Aviation Way

Watsonville, CA 95076

831-722-9141 Shop

831-750-0284 Cell

 



On Fri, Apr 30, 2010 at 5:21 PM,  <RobHickman(at)aol.com (RobHickman(at)aol.com)> wrote:

[quote]       Why don't you just download the data from the EFIS after the flight and  review it?

  

  

 Rob Hickman

 N402RH  RV-10

  

  



[b]

aerobubba(at)earthlink.ne
Guest

Posted: Sun May 02, 2010 7:20 am Post subject: Only Pilot on board during flight testing.

Hi All-



There seems to be an issue of paradigms and frames of reference here.  We

have an awful lot of freedom to do as we want building experimental

aircraft, but that level of freedom doesn't transfer to the operational

realm.  For a significant number of us it is axiomatic that we will do our

own first flights.  No question.  So, how to meet the needs of that flight?

Hmmm, another body would be handy....  The problem with that is the FAA's

perspective is one of ensuring safety and avoiding liability.  Hence the

requirement for minimum crew for flight testing.  The minimum crew for any

RV is one.  If the test pilot in question is not up to the challenge of the

moment,  the official response will just about guaranteed be to find one

who is. That's pretty much the end of the story, unless someone were to

push the issue.  I have known feds who, in that scenario, would likely

start to question the judgement and levels of understanding of the builder.

While not necessarily disastrous, going down that path is not likely to be

pleasant.  



FWIW-



glen matejcek

aerobubba(at)earthlink.net

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