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Tim Olson

Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2882

Posted: Sat May 08, 2010 7:30 pm Post subject: RV-10 Fire

Just caught this on VAF...

http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=57715



Would be nice to hear that he's really ok, if anyone

knows how bad off they were.



-- 

Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD

do not archive

dlm46007(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Sat May 08, 2010 7:56 pm Post subject: RV-10 Fire

We will also need to know where the fire started? Forwall forward or

firewall aft (tunnel)? What engine and what, if any, modifications were made

to the original Vans plan? N46007 already has a fire bottle that will spray

Halon over the engine, between the firewall and the aft baffling. A small

further mod could dump a limited amount of Halon into the tunnel.



--

Phil.Perry(at)netapp.com
Guest

Posted: Sat May 08, 2010 8:01 pm Post subject: RV-10 Fire

I've been watching that too...  Sounds like he's burned but okay.



Not trying to speculate, but this event caused me to think through a

couple of topics.



Anyone know if the fuel boost pump and flap motors are explosion

resistant?  If not, they probably should be since there are several fuel

lines that share the same enclosed airspace as both electrical items.



I was thinking this through earlier this morning and now I think the

RV-10 POH should say any smell of fuel in the cabin should immediately

mean no flaps and no boost pump.



For the record, I don't even know if he was operating either.  Just

thinking through a gotcha scenario for the benefit of the group.



Phil



--

dave.saylor.aircrafters(a
Guest

Posted: Sun May 09, 2010 6:59 am Post subject: RV-10 Fire

The latest on VAF says they should both be OK.



I put a couple drain holes in the tunnel just forward of the spar so at least a small leak wouldn't puddle.

Dave Saylor

AirCrafters LLC

140 Aviation Way

  Watsonville, CA 95076

831-722-9141 Shop

831-750-0284 Cell

 



On Sat, May 8, 2010 at 9:00 PM, Perry, Phil <Phil.Perry(at)netapp.com (Phil.Perry(at)netapp.com)> wrote:

[quote]   --> RV10-List message posted by: "Perry, Phil" <Phil.Perry(at)netapp.com (Phil.Perry(at)netapp.com)>

 

 I've been watching that too...  Sounds like he's burned but okay.

 

 Not trying to speculate, but this event caused me to think through a

 couple of topics.

 

 Anyone know if the fuel boost pump and flap motors are explosion

 resistant?  If not, they probably should be since there are several fuel

 lines that share the same enclosed airspace as both electrical items.

 

 I was thinking this through earlier this morning and now I think the

 RV-10 POH should say any smell of fuel in the cabin should immediately

 mean no flaps and no boost pump.

 

 For the record, I don't even know if he was operating either.  Just

 thinking through a gotcha scenario for the benefit of the group.

 

 Phil

 



 

 

 --

jdriggs49(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Sun May 09, 2010 5:23 pm Post subject: RV-10 Fire

The flap motor has four holes venting the inside. The Aeroflow and Andair pumps are sealed by the looks of them.

From: dave.saylor.aircrafters(at)gmail.com

Date: Sun, 9 May 2010 07:57:50 -0700

Subject: Re: RV-10 Fire

To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

The latest on VAF says they should both be OK.

I put a couple drain holes in the tunnel just forward of the spar so at least a small leak wouldn't puddle.

Dave Saylor

AirCrafters LLC

140 Aviation Way

Watsonville, CA 95076

831-722-9141 Shop

831-750-0284 Cell

On Sat, May 8, 2010 at 9:00 PM, Perry, Phil <Phil.Perry(at)netapp.com> wrote:

I've been watching that too...  Sounds like he's burned but okay.

Not trying to speculate, but this event caused me to think through a

couple of topics.

Anyone know if the fuel boost pump and flap motors are explosion

resistant?  If not, they probably should be since there are several fuel

lines that share the same enclosed airspace as both electrical items.

I was thinking this through earlier this morning and now I think the

RV-10 POH should say any smell of fuel in the cabin should immediately

mean no flaps and no boost pump.

For the record, I don't even know if he was operating either.  Just

thinking through a gotcha scenario for the benefit of the group.

Phil

--

dlm46007(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Sun May 09, 2010 6:54 pm Post subject: RV-10 Fire

The engine was (?) an automotive V8 so it is  unknown what the components of the tunnel are. One could expect that the flap  motor was the Vans motor.I am going to plumb a shot of Halon to the tunnel. Also  always run a good test when cleaning the fuel filter; use fuel lube on the  fittings. 

 [quote]   ---

Phil.Perry(at)netapp.com
Guest

Posted: Sun May 09, 2010 7:22 pm Post subject: RV-10 Fire

I’ll have to ask Todd, but the changes I’m aware of are:  

   

<![if !supportLists]>1)      <![endif]>Fuel filter was not installed in the tunnel.  Instead he opt’d for one fuel filter in each wing root.  

<![if !supportLists]>2)      <![endif]>The fuel valve was a 6 port fuel valve.  Which I believe is a requirement for the LS1 and 2 engines??  

   

It makes sense that the fuel pump would be sealed, since it’s knows it’ll be flammable environment.    

   

I just checked my flap motor and it’s got 4 ports on it too – scary.  I’d like to see a sealed motor.  

   

The tunnel area is like the bilge of an in-board boat.  When fuel vapors build up in that enclosed area and then a engine start (or some other spark event) is attempted, the spark results in a massive explosion.  It wouldn’t take too much of a leak or cracked hard aluminum line to fill the tunnel with vapors.  In fact, Todd never mentioned a rough engine or anything that would indicate inadequate fuel making its way to the engine.  

   

I’ve been doing some research today  to see if I could find (or identify how to build) a light-weight and cheap vapor sensor that would flag a warning light  on the panel.    

Phil  

   

   

       

From: David McNeill [mailto:dlm46007(at)cox.net] 

 Sent: Sunday, May 09, 2010 9:53 PM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: RV-10 Fire  

  

  

     

The engine was (?) an automotive V8 so it is unknown what the components of the tunnel are. One could expect that the flap motor was the Vans motor.I am going to plumb a shot of Halon to the tunnel. Also always run a good test when cleaning the fuel filter; use fuel lube on the fittings.   

  [quote]    

----- Original Message -----   

    

From: Danny Riggs (jdriggs49(at)msn.com)   

    

To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)   

    

Sent: Sunday, May 09, 2010 6:20 PM  

    

Subject: RE: RV-10 Fire  

    

   

  

The flap motor has four holes venting the inside. The Aeroflow and Andair pumps are sealed by the looks of them.      

  

From: dave.saylor.aircrafters(at)gmail.com (dave.saylor.aircrafters(at)gmail.com)

 Date: Sun, 9 May 2010 07:57:50 -0700

 Subject: Re: RV-10 Fire

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)

 

 The latest on VAF says they should both be OK.

 

 I put a couple drain holes in the tunnel just forward of the spar so at least a small leak wouldn't puddle.

  Dave Saylor

 AirCrafters LLC

 140 Aviation Way

 Watsonville, CA 95076

 831-722-9141 Shop

 831-750-0284 Cell

 

     

On Sat, May 8, 2010 at 9:00 PM, Perry, Phil <Phil.Perry(at)netapp.com (Phil.Perry(at)netapp.com)> wrote:  

--> RV10-List message posted by: "Perry, Phil" <Phil.Perry(at)netapp.com (Phil.Perry(at)netapp.com)>

 

 I've been watching that too...  Sounds like he's burned but okay.

 

 Not trying to speculate, but this event caused me to think through a

 couple of topics.

 

 Anyone know if the fuel boost pump and flap motors are explosion

 resistant?  If not, they probably should be since there are several fuel

 lines that share the same enclosed airspace as both electrical items.

 

 I was thinking this through earlier this morning and now I think the

 RV-10 POH should say any smell of fuel in the cabin should immediately

 mean no flaps and no boost pump.

 

 For the record, I don't even know if he was operating either.  Just

 thinking through a gotcha scenario for the benefit of the group.

 

 Phil      



 

 

 --

jdriggs49(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Sun May 09, 2010 7:30 pm Post subject: RV-10 Fire

Good idea! Any suggestions about where to get line and fittings for this?



From: dlm46007(at)cox.net

To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: RV-10 Fire

Date: Sun, 9 May 2010 19:53:05 -0700



      .ExternalClass .ecxhmmessage P {padding-bottom:0px;padding-left:0px;padding-right:0px;padding-top:0px;} .ExternalClass BODY.ecxhmmessage {font-family:Verdana;font-size:10pt;}     The engine was (?) an automotive V8 so it is  unknown what the components of the tunnel are. One could expect that the flap  motor was the Vans motor.I am going to plumb a shot of Halon to the tunnel. Also  always run a good test when cleaning the fuel filter; use fuel lube on the  fittings. 

 [quote]   ---

dlm46007(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Sun May 09, 2010 7:34 pm Post subject: RV-10 Fire

Sounds like a "smell fuel then no flap switch usage  from that point forward" scenario. I am still going to add  plumbing from  fire bottle (Halon) to the tunnel. Probably will use a bulkhead fitting with a  cap inside the tunnel. I will drill a 40 hole in the cap and safety it in  place.

 [quote]   ---

dlm46007(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Sun May 09, 2010 8:28 pm Post subject: RV-10 Fire

I will use standard AN fittings and aluminium tubing  available from Spruce. The fire bottle is available from Stroud Fire in oklahoma  city ; I believe they have a website. mine is a 15 pound bottle and sprays over  the engine, and between the firewall and aft baffling; I will add a line to the  tunnel. cost of the system was about $250. I installed this in the 10 because it  was an option on the Glastar I built and it seemed like a good idea on the 10. I  don't like the thought of burning. I have pictures of the install and have  posted them in the past . I would include one now but they are on another  computer.

 [quote]   ---

msausen

Joined: 25 Oct 2007
Posts: 559
Location: Appleton, WI USA

Posted: Mon May 10, 2010 5:04 am Post subject: RV-10 Fire

http://www.stroudsafety.com/HalonSystems.html  

   

also  

   

http://www.safecraft.com/aviation.asp  

   

Michael  

       

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of David McNeill

 Sent: Sunday, May 09, 2010 11:26 PM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: RV-10 Fire  

  

  

     

I will use standard AN fittings and aluminium tubing available from Spruce. The fire bottle is available from Stroud Fire in oklahoma city ; I believe they have a website. mine is a 15 pound bottle and sprays over the engine, and between the firewall and aft baffling; I will add a line to the tunnel. cost of the system was about $250. I installed this in the 10 because it was an option on the Glastar I built and it seemed like a good idea on the 10. I don't like the thought of burning. I have pictures of the install and have posted them in the past . I would include one now but they are on another computer.  

  [quote]    

----- Original Message -----   

    

From: Danny Riggs (jdriggs49(at)msn.com)   

    

To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)   

    

Sent: Sunday, May 09, 2010 8:29 PM  

    

Subject: RE: RV10-List: RV-10 Fire  

    

   

  

Good idea! Any suggestions about where to get line and fittings for this?      

  

From: dlm46007(at)cox.net (dlm46007(at)cox.net)

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)

 Subject: Re: RV-10 Fire

 Date: Sun, 9 May 2010 19:53:05 -0700    

The engine was (?) an automotive V8 so it is unknown what the components of the tunnel are. One could expect that the flap motor was the Vans motor.I am going to plumb a shot of Halon to the tunnel. Also always run a good test when cleaning the fuel filter; use fuel lube on the fittings.   

  [quote]    

----- Original Message -----   

    

From: Danny Riggs (jdriggs49(at)msn.com)   

    

To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)   

    

Sent: Sunday, May 09, 2010 6:20 PM  

    

Subject: RE: RV10-List: RV-10 Fire  

    

   

  

The flap motor has four holes venting the inside. The Aeroflow and Andair pumps are sealed by the looks of them.      

  

From: dave.saylor.aircrafters(at)gmail.com (dave.saylor.aircrafters(at)gmail.com)

 Date: Sun, 9 May 2010 07:57:50 -0700

 Subject: Re: RV-10 Fire

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)

 

 The latest on VAF says they should both be OK.

 

 I put a couple drain holes in the tunnel just forward of the spar so at least a small leak wouldn't puddle.

  Dave Saylor

 AirCrafters LLC

 140 Aviation Way

 Watsonville, CA 95076

 831-722-9141 Shop

 831-750-0284 Cell

 

     

On Sat, May 8, 2010 at 9:00 PM, Perry, Phil <Phil.Perry(at)netapp.com (Phil.Perry(at)netapp.com)> wrote:  

--> RV10-List message posted by: "Perry, Phil" <Phil.Perry(at)netapp.com (Phil.Perry(at)netapp.com)>

 

 I've been watching that too...  Sounds like he's burned but okay.

 

 Not trying to speculate, but this event caused me to think through a

 couple of topics.

 

 Anyone know if the fuel boost pump and flap motors are explosion

 resistant?  If not, they probably should be since there are several fuel

 lines that share the same enclosed airspace as both electrical items.

 

 I was thinking this through earlier this morning and now I think the

 RV-10 POH should say any smell of fuel in the cabin should immediately

 mean no flaps and no boost pump.

 

 For the record, I don't even know if he was operating either.  Just

 thinking through a gotcha scenario for the benefit of the group.

 

 Phil      



 

 

 --

jdriggs49(at)MSN.COM
Guest

Posted: Mon May 10, 2010 5:55 am Post subject: RV-10 Fire

Google "gas vapor sensors" and you will get numerous sites. A remote sensor would be necessary for the tunnel. West Marine has one with remote for about $155. 

From: rvbuilder(at)sausen.net

To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 08:03:31 -0500

Subject: RE: RV-10 Fire

http://www.stroudsafety.com/HalonSystems.html

also

http://www.safecraft.com/aviation.asp

Michael

From:

owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com

[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of David McNeill

Sent: Sunday, May 09, 2010 11:26 PM

To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: RV-10 Fire

I

will use standard AN fittings and aluminium tubing available from Spruce. The

fire bottle is available from Stroud Fire in oklahoma city ; I believe they

have a website. mine is a 15 pound bottle and sprays over the engine, and

between the firewall and aft baffling; I will add a line to the tunnel. cost of

the system was about $250. I installed this in the 10 because it was an option

on the Glastar I built and it seemed like a good idea on the 10. I don't like

the thought of burning. I have pictures of the install and have posted

them in the past . I would include one now but they are on another computer

Phil.Perry(at)netapp.com
Guest

Posted: Mon May 10, 2010 6:12 am Post subject: RV-10 Fire

Yeah, I’m looking to modify a marine sensor so it illuminates a warning light.  

   

I don’t really like having the sensor controller taking up space on the panel and I don’t think I need the audible buzzer.  

   

For me, the perfect sensor would simply illuminate a warning light near the flap and boost pump switches…  

   

Still trying to figure out how to do it, but that’s the perfect path for me.  

   

Phil  

   

   

       

From: Danny Riggs [mailto:jdriggs49(at)MSN.COM] 

 Sent: Monday, May 10, 2010 8:53 AM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: RV-10 Fire  

  

  

   

Google "gas vapor sensors" and you will get numerous sites. A remote sensor would be necessary for the tunnel. West Marine has one with remote for about $155.       

  

From: rvbuilder(at)sausen.net

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 08:03:31 -0500

 Subject: RE: RV-10 Fire    

http://www.stroudsafety.com/HalonSystems.html  

   

also  

   

http://www.safecraft.com/aviation.asp  

   

Michael  

       

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of David McNeill

 Sent: Sunday, May 09, 2010 11:26 PM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: RV-10 Fire  

  

  

     

I will use standard AN fittings and aluminium tubing available from Spruce. The fire bottle is available from Stroud Fire in oklahoma city ; I believe they have a website. mine is a 15 pound bottle and sprays over the engine, and between the firewall and aft baffling; I will add a line to the tunnel. cost of the system was about $250. I installed this in the 10 because it was an option on the Glastar I built and it seemed like a good idea on the 10. I don't like the thought of burning. I have pictures of the install and have posted them in the past . I would include one now but they are on another computer.  

  [quote]    

----- Original Message -----   

    

From: Danny Riggs (jdriggs49(at)msn.com)   

    

To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)   

    

Sent: Sunday, May 09, 2010 8:29 PM  

    

Subject: RE: RV-10 Fire  

    

   

  

Good idea! Any suggestions about where to get line and fittings for this?      

  

From: dlm46007(at)cox.net (dlm46007(at)cox.net)

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)

 Subject: Re: RV-10 Fire

 Date: Sun, 9 May 2010 19:53:05 -0700    

The engine was (?) an automotive V8 so it is unknown what the components of the tunnel are. One could expect that the flap motor was the Vans motor.I am going to plumb a shot of Halon to the tunnel. Also always run a good test when cleaning the fuel filter; use fuel lube on the fittings.   

  [quote]    

----- Original Message -----   

    

From: Danny Riggs (jdriggs49(at)msn.com)   

    

To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)   

    

Sent: Sunday, May 09, 2010 6:20 PM  

    

Subject: RE: RV-10 Fire  

    

   

  

The flap motor has four holes venting the inside. The Aeroflow and Andair pumps are sealed by the looks of them.      

  

From: dave.saylor.aircrafters(at)gmail.com (dave.saylor.aircrafters(at)gmail.com)

 Date: Sun, 9 May 2010 07:57:50 -0700

 Subject: Re: RV-10 Fire

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)

 

 The latest on VAF says they should both be OK.

 

 I put a couple drain holes in the tunnel just forward of the spar so at least a small leak wouldn't puddle.

  Dave Saylor

 AirCrafters LLC

 140 Aviation Way

 Watsonville, CA 95076

 831-722-9141 Shop

 831-750-0284 Cell    

On Sat, May 8, 2010 at 9:00 PM, Perry, Phil <Phil.Perry(at)netapp.com (Phil.Perry(at)netapp.com)> wrote:  

--> RV10-List message posted by: "Perry, Phil" <Phil.Perry(at)netapp.com (Phil.Perry(at)netapp.com)>

 

 I've been watching that too...  Sounds like he's burned but okay.

 

 Not trying to speculate, but this event caused me to think through a

 couple of topics.

 

 Anyone know if the fuel boost pump and flap motors are explosion

 resistant?  If not, they probably should be since there are several fuel

 lines that share the same enclosed airspace as both electrical items.

 

 I was thinking this through earlier this morning and now I think the

 RV-10 POH should say any smell of fuel in the cabin should immediately

 mean no flaps and no boost pump.

 

 For the record, I don't even know if he was operating either.  Just

 thinking through a gotcha scenario for the benefit of the group.

 

 Phil      



 

 

 --

stein(at)steinair.com
Guest

Posted: Mon May 10, 2010 6:29 am Post subject: RV-10 Fire

Hi Guys,  

   

Not trying to flame anyone here or be negative, but just to play a bit of devils advocate. There are some good ideas and methodologies being discussed, but I’d caution people against complicating the aircraft trying to create a solution to a problem we don’t even know exists.  Firstly, we don’t know what happened to Todd’s airplane other than pure conjecture at this point. Second, it takes a LOT more than a little vapor or fumes or fuel smell in airplanes to cause a fire in the cockpit.  Anyone who’s been around old airplanes knows about leaky manual primers, leaky tanks, etc.. and history shows that you can have quite a lot of fuel around before it flashes off.  Of course raw fuel being pumped into a plane and onto or near an ignition source is a disaster waiting to happen, but in that case a vapor sensor will only slightly give you a short notification before something happens.  I guess I’d look at this this way.  It’s like a lot of things with these RV’s. If you concentrate your time on building the plane safety, building it per Van’s recommendations and operating it per recommendations, the likelyhood of failures is very low.  There are many thousands of RV’s flying and this is the first time I’m aware of one that burst into flames on the ground (there may be and probably are others), but even if that is the case I’ll bet many can be traced to a root cause other than spontaneous combustion.  We know Doors will come off if not latched/built properly.  We know nosewheels will fall off if not installed properly. This plane was the only airworthy example of an RV-10 with a Vesta V8 installation so there are a LOT of variables to take into consideration other than treating it like a stock RV10.  

   

Anyway, I’m not advocating that you do nothing and in fact innovation is a good thing. I’d just caution the generalized design of yet another system to install in the airplane that at best may give you more peace of mind than actual safety.  If there were a noted problem that is verified, then that’s a different story.  But, in this case we don’t yet even know what the cause of the problem was…for all we know a hose/fuel line may have just come off and been  pouring fuel into the plane. In that case not much would have changed even with a new system to monitor it.  Sealing up the flap motor is of little use (IMHO) because you still have a plane loaded with avionics (fans, relays, switches, etc..) that all create minute sparks or ignition sources.  The plane itself is full of static electricity, so on and so forth.  You’d need to wear ESD clothing, EST bracelets grounded to the airplane, explosion proof fans in all the avionics, sealed switches that don’t have any sparks, etc.. which is just not practical.   

   

In the end It’s like I said, I’m just playing devils advocate a little bit.  I would however recommend we wait and see what the problem was before we design systems around it.  

     

My 2 cents as usual!  

   

Cheers,  

Stein  

   

   

      

   

   

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Danny Riggs

 Sent: Monday, May 10, 2010 8:53 AM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: RV-10 Fire  

  

  

   

Google "gas vapor sensors" and you will get numerous sites. A remote sensor would be necessary for the tunnel. West Marine has one with remote for about $155.       

  

From: rvbuilder(at)sausen.net

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 08:03:31 -0500

 Subject: RE: RV-10 Fire    

http://www.stroudsafety.com/HalonSystems.html  

   

also  

   

http://www.safecraft.com/aviation.asp  

   

Michael  

       

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of David McNeill

 Sent: Sunday, May 09, 2010 11:26 PM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: RV-10 Fire  

  

  

     

I will use standard AN fittings and aluminium tubing available from Spruce. The fire bottle is available from Stroud Fire in oklahoma city ; I believe they have a website. mine is a 15 pound bottle and sprays over the engine, and between the firewall and aft baffling; I will add a line to the tunnel. cost of the system was about $250. I installed this in the 10 because it was an option on the Glastar I built and it seemed like a good idea on the 10. I don't like the thought of burning. I have pictures of the install and have posted them in the past . I would include one now but they are on another computer.  

  [quote]    

----- Original Message -----   

    

From: Danny Riggs (jdriggs49(at)msn.com)   

    

To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)   

    

Sent: Sunday, May 09, 2010 8:29 PM  

    

Subject: RE: RV-10 Fire  

    

   

  

Good idea! Any suggestions about where to get line and fittings for this?      

  

From: dlm46007(at)cox.net (dlm46007(at)cox.net)

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)

 Subject: Re: RV-10 Fire

 Date: Sun, 9 May 2010 19:53:05 -0700    

The engine was (?) an automotive V8 so it is unknown what the components of the tunnel are. One could expect that the flap motor was the Vans motor.I am going to plumb a shot of Halon to the tunnel. Also always run a good test when cleaning the fuel filter; use fuel lube on the fittings.   

  [quote]    

----- Original Message -----   

    

From: Danny Riggs (jdriggs49(at)msn.com)   

    

To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)   

    

Sent: Sunday, May 09, 2010 6:20 PM  

    

Subject: RE: RV-10 Fire  

    

   

  

The flap motor has four holes venting the inside. The Aeroflow and Andair pumps are sealed by the looks of them.      

  

From: dave.saylor.aircrafters(at)gmail.com (dave.saylor.aircrafters(at)gmail.com)

 Date: Sun, 9 May 2010 07:57:50 -0700

 Subject: Re: RV-10 Fire

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)

 

 The latest on VAF says they should both be OK.

 

 I put a couple drain holes in the tunnel just forward of the spar so at least a small leak wouldn't puddle.

  Dave Saylor

 AirCrafters LLC

 140 Aviation Way

 Watsonville, CA 95076

 831-722-9141 Shop

 831-750-0284 Cell    

On Sat, May 8, 2010 at 9:00 PM, Perry, Phil <Phil.Perry(at)netapp.com (Phil.Perry(at)netapp.com)> wrote:  

--> RV10-List message posted by: "Perry, Phil" <Phil.Perry(at)netapp.com (Phil.Perry(at)netapp.com)>

 

 I've been watching that too...  Sounds like he's burned but okay.

 

 Not trying to speculate, but this event caused me to think through a

 couple of topics.

 

 Anyone know if the fuel boost pump and flap motors are explosion

 resistant?  If not, they probably should be since there are several fuel

 lines that share the same enclosed airspace as both electrical items.

 

 I was thinking this through earlier this morning and now I think the

 RV-10 POH should say any smell of fuel in the cabin should immediately

 mean no flaps and no boost pump.

 

 For the record, I don't even know if he was operating either.  Just

 thinking through a gotcha scenario for the benefit of the group.

 

 Phil      



 

 

 --

Phil.Perry(at)netapp.com
Guest

Posted: Mon May 10, 2010 7:12 am Post subject: RV-10 Fire

I don’t disagree, Stein.  That’s why I mentioned in the first post that I had no clue if he was operating any electronics inside the tunnel when the explosion occurred.  I still don’t know today.  

   

But that did spur the realization that our tunnel is a great place for fuel vapors to go undetected and then the activation of an electrical device could set them off.  Not saying that’s what occurred to Todd, but a little common sense would say that could occur with any RV-10 regardless of the engine selection.  

   

If vapors were allowed to build, the most likely ignition sources in a plans-built RV-10 would be the flap or boost pump motors.  Sure there are other sources in the airplane, but at least they’re outside the enclosed space.  

   

My goals is to encourage others to recognize that a fuel odor in the cabin is most likely to be from inside the tunnel.  And if that’s where the source is – think before you turn on any electrical device inside it.  

   

The theory above might be completely different from the source of Todd’s explosion.  His explosion just caused the wheels of thought to turn and ultimately lead to the  identification of a potential risk.  I don’t think anyone is trying to speculate to the specific sources that caused Todd’s explosion.  I’m hoping there is enough of his airplane remaining to determine what actually occurred in his situation.    

   

Phil  

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

       

From: Stein Bruch [mailto:stein(at)steinair.com] 

 Sent: Monday, May 10, 2010 9:28 AM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: RV-10 Fire  

  

  

   

Hi Guys,  

   

Not trying to flame anyone here or be negative, but just to play a bit of devils advocate. There are some good ideas and methodologies being discussed, but I’d caution people against complicating the aircraft trying to create a solution to a problem we don’t even know exists.  Firstly, we don’t know what happened to Todd’s airplane other than pure conjecture at this point. Second, it takes a LOT more than a little vapor or fumes or fuel smell in airplanes to cause a fire in the cockpit.  Anyone who’s been around old airplanes knows about leaky manual primers, leaky tanks, etc.. and history shows that you can have quite a lot of fuel around before it flashes off.  Of course raw fuel being pumped into a plane and onto or near an ignition source is a disaster waiting to happen, but in that case a vapor sensor will only slightly give you a short notification before something happens.  I guess I’d look at this this way.  It’s like a lot of things with these RV’s. If you concentrate your time on building the plane safety, building it per Van’s recommendations and operating it per recommendations, the likelyhood of failures is very low.  There are many thousands of RV’s flying and this is the first time I’m aware of one that burst into flames on the ground (there may be and probably are others), but even if that is the case I’ll bet many can be traced to a root cause other than spontaneous combustion.  We know Doors will come off if not latched/built properly.  We know nosewheels will fall off if not installed properly. This plane was the only airworthy example of an RV-10 with a Vesta V8 installation so there are a LOT of variables to take into consideration other than treating it like a stock RV10.  

   

Anyway, I’m not advocating that you do nothing and in fact innovation is a good thing. I’d just caution the generalized design of yet another system to install in the airplane that at best may give you more peace of mind than actual safety.  If there were a noted problem that is verified, then that’s a different story.  But, in this case we don’t yet even know what the cause of the problem was…for all we know a hose/fuel line may have just come off and been  pouring fuel into the plane. In that case not much would have changed even with a new system to monitor it.  Sealing up the flap motor is of little use (IMHO) because you still have a plane loaded with avionics (fans, relays, switches, etc..) that all create minute sparks or ignition sources.  The plane itself is full of static electricity, so on and so forth.  You’d need to wear ESD clothing, EST bracelets grounded to the airplane, explosion proof fans in all the avionics, sealed switches that don’t have any sparks, etc.. which is just not practical.   

   

In the end It’s like I said, I’m just playing devils advocate a little bit.  I would however recommend we wait and see what the problem was before we design systems around it.  

     

My 2 cents as usual!  

   

Cheers,  

Stein  

   

   

      

   

   

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Danny Riggs

 Sent: Monday, May 10, 2010 8:53 AM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: RV-10 Fire  

  

  

   

Google "gas vapor sensors" and you will get numerous sites. A remote sensor would be necessary for the tunnel. West Marine has one with remote for about $155.       

  

From: rvbuilder(at)sausen.net

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 08:03:31 -0500

 Subject: RE: RV-10 Fire    

http://www.stroudsafety.com/HalonSystems.html  

   

also  

   

http://www.safecraft.com/aviation.asp  

   

Michael  

       

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of David McNeill

 Sent: Sunday, May 09, 2010 11:26 PM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: RV-10 Fire  

  

  

     

I will use standard AN fittings and aluminium tubing available from Spruce. The fire bottle is available from Stroud Fire in oklahoma city ; I believe they have a website. mine is a 15 pound bottle and sprays over the engine, and between the firewall and aft baffling; I will add a line to the tunnel. cost of the system was about $250. I installed this in the 10 because it was an option on the Glastar I built and it seemed like a good idea on the 10. I don't like the thought of burning. I have pictures of the install and have posted them in the past . I would include one now but they are on another computer.  

  [quote]    

----- Original Message -----   

    

From: Danny Riggs (jdriggs49(at)msn.com)   

    

To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)   

    

Sent: Sunday, May 09, 2010 8:29 PM  

    

Subject: RE: RV-10 Fire  

    

   

  

Good idea! Any suggestions about where to get line and fittings for this?      

  

From: dlm46007(at)cox.net (dlm46007(at)cox.net)

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)

 Subject: Re: RV-10 Fire

 Date: Sun, 9 May 2010 19:53:05 -0700    

The engine was (?) an automotive V8 so it is unknown what the components of the tunnel are. One could expect that the flap motor was the Vans motor.I am going to plumb a shot of Halon to the tunnel. Also always run a good test when cleaning the fuel filter; use fuel lube on the fittings.   

  [quote]    

----- Original Message -----   

    

From: Danny Riggs (jdriggs49(at)msn.com)   

    

To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)   

    

Sent: Sunday, May 09, 2010 6:20 PM  

    

Subject: RE: RV-10 Fire  

    

   

  

The flap motor has four holes venting the inside. The Aeroflow and Andair pumps are sealed by the looks of them.      

  

From: dave.saylor.aircrafters(at)gmail.com (dave.saylor.aircrafters(at)gmail.com)

 Date: Sun, 9 May 2010 07:57:50 -0700

 Subject: Re: RV-10 Fire

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)

 

 The latest on VAF says they should both be OK.

 

 I put a couple drain holes in the tunnel just forward of the spar so at least a small leak wouldn't puddle.

  Dave Saylor

 AirCrafters LLC

 140 Aviation Way

 Watsonville, CA 95076

 831-722-9141 Shop

 831-750-0284 Cell    

On Sat, May 8, 2010 at 9:00 PM, Perry, Phil <Phil.Perry(at)netapp.com (Phil.Perry(at)netapp.com)> wrote:  

--> RV10-List message posted by: "Perry, Phil" <Phil.Perry(at)netapp.com (Phil.Perry(at)netapp.com)>

 

 I've been watching that too...  Sounds like he's burned but okay.

 

 Not trying to speculate, but this event caused me to think through a

 couple of topics.

 

 Anyone know if the fuel boost pump and flap motors are explosion

 resistant?  If not, they probably should be since there are several fuel

 lines that share the same enclosed airspace as both electrical items.

 

 I was thinking this through earlier this morning and now I think the

 RV-10 POH should say any smell of fuel in the cabin should immediately

 mean no flaps and no boost pump.

 

 For the record, I don't even know if he was operating either.  Just

 thinking through a gotcha scenario for the benefit of the group.

 

 Phil      



 

 

 --

Tim Olson

Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2882

Posted: Mon May 10, 2010 7:44 am Post subject: RV-10 Fire

I'd have to agree a bit with Stein on this.  A simple light on

the panel may be no big deal, and a fire suppression system

isn't a bad idea if you want the added space use, weight,

or that, either, but there really hasn't been a rash of this

happening in either RV's nor certified planes.  So it can

be approached less urgently than most things.  If you simply

said you're going to seal the flap motor, great, but if you

plug the existing holes, do you know if there is any downside?

If you drill holes in the belly, you may prevent puddling, but

you may let IN other things too, depending on the air pressure,

and there is hot exhaust just in front of those holes, if you

do get fuel leaking out.  So you have to really think

through everything deeply if you want to make mods.



Regarding flammability, as Stein says, there's really a

HEL and LEL to fuel for an explosion.  Too much

and it won't blow, too little and it won't blow. So

just having a fuel leak doesn't mean you're GOING to

have a fire.  But, there are dozens of things in the

plane that can cause sparks that would ignite vapors

that are within the explosive range...fans on your EFIS

or in the panel, or heck, even the act of opening or

closing a switch. So really, you need to build the plane

in a good solid way, that is trustworthy, and not settle

for any amount of fuel leakage.



Regarding leakage, I just went through this when I swapped

in my new teflon fuel lines.  I had one fitting that just

did NOT want to be leak free.  I'd install the line,

clean and dry it, fill the tanks, and wait overnight.

It would have moisture on it.  Not necessarily even

enough to cause a puddle, but you could feel the fuel

on your fingers. I went round and round until finally

just having them make a new hose for me.  That fixed it...

it was an AN-fitting female seat that just didn't have a

perfect seat face or something. But you can't take fuel

issues lightly.  That's part of why the quality Andair

valve and not some tractor valve.  That's why I also

didn't trust too much of that hard aluminum tubing.

I didn't like the way I saw micro cracks on some batches

of tubing when I bent it.  Some of that tubing that

I got from Van's was really not good stuff. I'd buy the

same stuff again, or get some from ACS and it was

better.  But ultimately, I trust a stainless braided

teflon line much better against work hardening and

fatigue cracking.



So, the deal with fuel vapors really might be just

installing a vapor sensor if you just want to know

about the vapors, or a fire suppression system in the

tunnel if you really want to go hardcore on it. But

certainly think through everything in detail first.



Also, consider this....you smell fuel in the cockpit (i

have before on other planes)...what do you do?  Apparently

they landed and taxiied in, and then it blew.  If it were

really fuel in the cockpit, I believe the "proper" thing

to do would be to immediately shut off all electrics.

100% of them.  If you have magnetos, you may be in luck

and even be able to consider still keeping the engine

running until you're on the ground. If not, you have to

decide how much risk you'll take. I'd still leave my

lightspeed on, because there shouldn't be any spark

inside the cockpit.  But, you certainly wouldn't want to

leave the fuel pump on.  Some engines (not lycomings)

won't run without fuel pumps on.  But anyway, the outcome

might have been different if on short final, they pulled

the mixture off, and hit the master off, and just

glided down and rolled off the runway, calling the

tower/trucks/or whatever.  Taxiing in probably wasn't a

good idea.  This is not to be critical of Todd, because

I'm sure he certainly was trying to do the right thing.

It's just to point out that the outcome can change pretty

easily based on both the situation and the reaction to it.

With no master on, and just touchdown to full stop, then

doors open, it could have been a whole different thing.

Or, maybe switching off the master would have been the

spark that blew the whole thing off.  Food for thought.



One tidbit that would be really interesting is this....

Was the tunnel blown apart or blown out in any way?

This would make it easy to tell if the explosion happened

in the tunnel or in the cabin.  A real wild a$s guess

would be the cockpit, because if the tunnel would

have blow apart, I'd think it would have caused

some serious shrapnel injuries.  So if it were just

cockpit fumes, would a tunnel mounted vapor sensor

have helped?



The post accident questions can really teach a lot and

make you think about it, can't it?  I'm just glad Todd

and his daughter are going to be OK.  But maybe if nothing

else comes of it, the one obvious thing can be learned by

others....get on the ground, and remove all electricity,

immediately...then get the door open and out of the plane.



It was also interesting to note his take on Van's door latch

mod.  I guess I tend to agree...if you're in a panic trying

to get out, or in a non-pilots perspective, see it from

his daughters eyes....having one more latch to lift may

not be the ideal situation.  Something more automatic

like Sean's latches might be far nicer in such a situation.



Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD

do not archive

Stein Bruch wrote:

[quote] Hi Guys,

 

  

 

 Not trying to flame anyone here or be negative, but just to play a bit 

 of devils advocate. There are some good ideas and methodologies being 

 discussed, but I’d caution people against complicating the aircraft 

 trying to create a solution to a problem we don’t even know exists.  

 Firstly, we don’t know what happened to Todd’s airplane other than pure 

 conjecture at this point. Second, it takes a LOT more than a little 

 vapor or fumes or fuel smell in airplanes to cause a fire in the 

 cockpit.  Anyone who’s been around old airplanes knows about leaky 

 manual primers, leaky tanks, etc.. and history shows that you can have 

 quite a lot of fuel around before it flashes off.  Of course raw fuel 

 being pumped into a plane and onto or near an ignition source is a 

 disaster waiting to happen, but in that case a vapor sensor will only 

 slightly give you a short notification before something happens.  I 

 guess I’d look at this this way.  It’s like a lot of things with these 

 RV’s. If you concentrate your time on building the plane safety, 

 building it per Van’s recommendations and operating it per 

 recommendations, the likelyhood of failures is very low.  There are many 

 thousands of RV’s flying and this is the first time I’m aware of one 

 that burst into flames on the ground (there may be and probably are 

 others), but even if that is the case I’ll bet many can be traced to a 

 root cause other than spontaneous combustion.  We know Doors will come 

 off if not latched/built properly.  We know nosewheels will fall off if 

 not installed properly. This plane was the only airworthy example of an 

 RV-10 with a Vesta V8 installation so there are a LOT of variables to 

 take into consideration other than treating it like a stock RV10.

 

  

 

 Anyway, I’m not advocating that you do nothing and in fact innovation is 

 a good thing. I’d just caution the generalized design of yet another 

 system to install in the airplane that at best may give you more peace 

 of mind than actual safety.  If there were a noted problem that is 

 verified, then that’s a different story.  But, in this case we don’t yet 

 even know what the cause of the problem was…for all we know a hose/fuel 

 line may have just come off and been  pouring fuel into the plane. In 

 that case not much would have changed even with a new system to monitor 

 it.  Sealing up the flap motor is of little use (IMHO) because you still 

 have a plane loaded with avionics (fans, relays, switches, etc..) that 

 all create minute sparks or ignition sources.  The plane itself is full 

 of static electricity, so on and so forth.  You’d need to wear ESD 

 clothing, EST bracelets grounded to the airplane, explosion proof fans 

 in all the avionics, sealed switches that don’t have any sparks, etc.. 

 which is just not practical.

 

  

 

 In the end It’s like I said, I’m just playing devils advocate a little 

 bit.  I would however recommend we wait and see what the problem was 

 before we design systems around it.

 

  

 

 My 2 cents as usual!

 

  

 

 Cheers,

 

 Stein

 

  

 

  

 

  

 

  

 

 *From:* owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com 

 [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Danny Riggs

 *Sent:* Monday, May 10, 2010 8:53 AM

 *To:* rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 *Subject:* RE: RV-10 Fire

 

  

 

 Google "gas vapor sensors" and you will get numerous sites. A remote 

 sensor would be necessary for the tunnel. West Marine has one with 

 remote for about $155.

 

 ------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 From: rvbuilder(at)sausen.net

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 08:03:31 -0500

 Subject: RE: RV-10 Fire

 

 http://www.stroudsafety.com/HalonSystems.html

 

  

 

 also

 

  

 

 http://www.safecraft.com/aviation.asp

 

  

 

 Michael

 

  

 

 *From:* owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com 

 [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *David McNeill

 *Sent:* Sunday, May 09, 2010 11:26 PM

 *To:* rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 *Subject:* Re: RV-10 Fire

 

  

 

 I will use standard AN fittings and aluminium tubing available from 

 Spruce. The fire bottle is available from Stroud Fire in oklahoma city ; 

 I believe they have a website. mine is a 15 pound bottle and sprays over 

 the engine, and between the firewall and aft baffling; I will add a line 

 to the tunnel. cost of the system was about $250. I installed this in 

 the 10 because it was an option on the Glastar I built and it seemed 

 like a good idea on the 10. I don't like the thought of burning. I have 

 pictures of the install and have posted them in the past . I would 

 include one now but they are on another computer.

 

     ---

ddddsp1(at)juno.com
Guest

Posted: Mon May 10, 2010 8:07 am Post subject: RV-10 Fire

Come on Stein.......................you take all the fun out of reading these post when you add COMMON SENSE into the mix!     

Have to share this recent experience to show how even builders who seek help from other builders can be a danger to themselves.        An RV10 builder had shared with me how he had just completed fitting his doors and was very proud of how well they fit.  He then put on the Vans stock grey door seal..........and now the doors required several pounds of force to get them shut.  BTW he did install the new Safety latch per Vans.  Next fix was to harden the door to the rear and put a handle there so he could pull the door in at the front and rear.  After all was said and done the doors shut ............but the seal deformed the door and it was not flush to the canopy.    So he asks me how did we get our doors to fit and close so well?  When I showed him the COMMON SENSE approach to sealing doors on the RV10 without requiring any pressure to close them..............he chuckled and said..........That will not work on my plane!  LOL  And we wonder how doors come off these planes?    The point I am making and what I think Stein is making is................a knee jerk reaction and over modifying a proven design can be more dangerous then a little COMMON SENSE.    

Until that happens the list will continue to be a great source of information and entertainment unless Stein stops it with his Devils Advocate stuff.............lol 

Dean  



____________________________________________________________

Penny Stock Jumping 2000%

Sign up to the #1 voted penny stock newsletter for free today!

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Tim Olson

Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2882

Posted: Mon May 10, 2010 8:34 am Post subject: RV-10 Fire

PS: during troubleshooting the fuel fitting, I did

drill in a hole on each side of the tunnel by

the fuel valve to use for visual/digital (finger)/sniff

inspection of the tunnel area near the fuel valve.

I didn't want a huge access hole, but something simple

that I could take a quick peek and sniff through.

With one on each side I can light it up with a

flashlight too.



Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD

do not archive

Tim Olson wrote:

[quote] 

 

 I'd have to agree a bit with Stein on this.  A simple light on

 the panel may be no big deal, and a fire suppression system

 isn't a bad idea if you want the added space use, weight,

 or that, either, but there really hasn't been a rash of this

 happening in either RV's nor certified planes.  So it can

 be approached less urgently than most things.  If you simply

 said you're going to seal the flap motor, great, but if you

 plug the existing holes, do you know if there is any downside?

 If you drill holes in the belly, you may prevent puddling, but

 you may let IN other things too, depending on the air pressure,

 and there is hot exhaust just in front of those holes, if you

 do get fuel leaking out.  So you have to really think

 through everything deeply if you want to make mods.

 

 Regarding flammability, as Stein says, there's really a

 HEL and LEL to fuel for an explosion.  Too much

 and it won't blow, too little and it won't blow. So

 just having a fuel leak doesn't mean you're GOING to

 have a fire.  But, there are dozens of things in the

 plane that can cause sparks that would ignite vapors

 that are within the explosive range...fans on your EFIS

 or in the panel, or heck, even the act of opening or

 closing a switch. So really, you need to build the plane

 in a good solid way, that is trustworthy, and not settle

 for any amount of fuel leakage.

 

 Regarding leakage, I just went through this when I swapped

 in my new teflon fuel lines.  I had one fitting that just

 did NOT want to be leak free.  I'd install the line,

 clean and dry it, fill the tanks, and wait overnight.

 It would have moisture on it.  Not necessarily even

 enough to cause a puddle, but you could feel the fuel

 on your fingers. I went round and round until finally

 just having them make a new hose for me.  That fixed it...

 it was an AN-fitting female seat that just didn't have a

 perfect seat face or something. But you can't take fuel

 issues lightly.  That's part of why the quality Andair

 valve and not some tractor valve.  That's why I also

 didn't trust too much of that hard aluminum tubing.

 I didn't like the way I saw micro cracks on some batches

 of tubing when I bent it.  Some of that tubing that

 I got from Van's was really not good stuff. I'd buy the

 same stuff again, or get some from ACS and it was

 better.  But ultimately, I trust a stainless braided

 teflon line much better against work hardening and

 fatigue cracking.

 

 So, the deal with fuel vapors really might be just

 installing a vapor sensor if you just want to know

 about the vapors, or a fire suppression system in the

 tunnel if you really want to go hardcore on it. But

 certainly think through everything in detail first.

 

 Also, consider this....you smell fuel in the cockpit (i

 have before on other planes)...what do you do?  Apparently

 they landed and taxiied in, and then it blew.  If it were

 really fuel in the cockpit, I believe the "proper" thing

 to do would be to immediately shut off all electrics.

 100% of them.  If you have magnetos, you may be in luck

 and even be able to consider still keeping the engine

 running until you're on the ground. If not, you have to

 decide how much risk you'll take. I'd still leave my

 lightspeed on, because there shouldn't be any spark

 inside the cockpit.  But, you certainly wouldn't want to

 leave the fuel pump on.  Some engines (not lycomings)

 won't run without fuel pumps on.  But anyway, the outcome

 might have been different if on short final, they pulled

 the mixture off, and hit the master off, and just

 glided down and rolled off the runway, calling the

 tower/trucks/or whatever.  Taxiing in probably wasn't a

 good idea.  This is not to be critical of Todd, because

 I'm sure he certainly was trying to do the right thing.

 It's just to point out that the outcome can change pretty

 easily based on both the situation and the reaction to it.

 With no master on, and just touchdown to full stop, then

 doors open, it could have been a whole different thing.

 Or, maybe switching off the master would have been the

 spark that blew the whole thing off.  Food for thought.

 

 One tidbit that would be really interesting is this....

 Was the tunnel blown apart or blown out in any way?

 This would make it easy to tell if the explosion happened

 in the tunnel or in the cabin.  A real wild a$s guess

 would be the cockpit, because if the tunnel would

 have blow apart, I'd think it would have caused

 some serious shrapnel injuries.  So if it were just

 cockpit fumes, would a tunnel mounted vapor sensor

 have helped?

 

 The post accident questions can really teach a lot and

 make you think about it, can't it?  I'm just glad Todd

 and his daughter are going to be OK.  But maybe if nothing

 else comes of it, the one obvious thing can be learned by

 others....get on the ground, and remove all electricity,

 immediately...then get the door open and out of the plane.

 

 It was also interesting to note his take on Van's door latch

 mod.  I guess I tend to agree...if you're in a panic trying

 to get out, or in a non-pilots perspective, see it from

 his daughters eyes....having one more latch to lift may

 not be the ideal situation.  Something more automatic

 like Sean's latches might be far nicer in such a situation.

 

 Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD

 do not archive

 

 

 Stein Bruch wrote:

> Hi Guys,

>

>  

>

> Not trying to flame anyone here or be negative, but just to play a bit 

> of devils advocate. There are some good ideas and methodologies being 

> discussed, but I’d caution people against complicating the aircraft 

> trying to create a solution to a problem we don’t even know exists.  

> Firstly, we don’t know what happened to Todd’s airplane other than 

> pure conjecture at this point. Second, it takes a LOT more than a 

> little vapor or fumes or fuel smell in airplanes to cause a fire in 

> the cockpit.  Anyone who’s been around old airplanes knows about leaky 

> manual primers, leaky tanks, etc.. and history shows that you can have 

> quite a lot of fuel around before it flashes off.  Of course raw fuel 

> being pumped into a plane and onto or near an ignition source is a 

> disaster waiting to happen, but in that case a vapor sensor will only 

> slightly give you a short notification before something happens.  I 

> guess I’d look at this this way.  It’s like a lot of things with these 

> RV’s. If you concentrate your time on building the plane safety, 

> building it per Van’s recommendations and operating it per 

> recommendations, the likelyhood of failures is very low.  There are 

> many thousands of RV’s flying and this is the first time I’m aware of 

> one that burst into flames on the ground (there may be and probably 

> are others), but even if that is the case I’ll bet many can be traced 

> to a root cause other than spontaneous combustion.  We know Doors will 

> come off if not latched/built properly.  We know nosewheels will fall 

> off if not installed properly. This plane was the only airworthy 

> example of an RV-10 with a Vesta V8 installation so there are a LOT of 

> variables to take into consideration other than treating it like a 

> stock RV10.

>

>  

>

> Anyway, I’m not advocating that you do nothing and in fact innovation 

> is a good thing. I’d just caution the generalized design of yet 

> another system to install in the airplane that at best may give you 

> more peace of mind than actual safety.  If there were a noted problem 

> that is verified, then that’s a different story.  But, in this case we 

> don’t yet even know what the cause of the problem was…for all we know 

> a hose/fuel line may have just come off and been  pouring fuel into 

> the plane. In that case not much would have changed even with a new 

> system to monitor it.  Sealing up the flap motor is of little use 

> (IMHO) because you still have a plane loaded with avionics (fans, 

> relays, switches, etc..) that all create minute sparks or ignition 

> sources.  The plane itself is full of static electricity, so on and so 

> forth.  You’d need to wear ESD clothing, EST bracelets grounded to the 

> airplane, explosion proof fans in all the avionics, sealed switches 

> that don’t have any sparks, etc.. which is just not practical.

>

>  

>

> In the end It’s like I said, I’m just playing devils advocate a little 

> bit.  I would however recommend we wait and see what the problem was 

> before we design systems around it.

>

>  

>

> My 2 cents as usual!

>

>  

>

> Cheers,

>

> Stein

>

>  

>

>  

>

>  

>

>  

>

> *From:* owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com 

> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Danny Riggs

> *Sent:* Monday, May 10, 2010 8:53 AM

> *To:* rv10-list(at)matronics.com

> *Subject:* RE: RV-10 Fire

>

>  

>

> Google "gas vapor sensors" and you will get numerous sites. A remote 

> sensor would be necessary for the tunnel. West Marine has one with 

> remote for about $155.

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

>

> From: rvbuilder(at)sausen.net

> To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

> Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 08:03:31 -0500

> Subject: RE: RV-10 Fire

>

> http://www.stroudsafety.com/HalonSystems.html

>

>  

>

> also

>

>  

>

> http://www.safecraft.com/aviation.asp

>

>  

>

> Michael

>

>  

>

> *From:* owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com 

> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *David 

> McNeill

> *Sent:* Sunday, May 09, 2010 11:26 PM

> *To:* rv10-list(at)matronics.com

> *Subject:* Re: RV-10 Fire

>

>  

>

> I will use standard AN fittings and aluminium tubing available from 

> Spruce. The fire bottle is available from Stroud Fire in oklahoma city 

> ; I believe they have a website. mine is a 15 pound bottle and sprays 

> over the engine, and between the firewall and aft baffling; I will add 

> a line to the tunnel. cost of the system was about $250. I installed 

> this in the 10 because it was an option on the Glastar I built and it 

> seemed like a good idea on the 10. I don't like the thought of 

> burning. I have pictures of the install and have posted them in the 

> past . I would include one now but they are on another computer.

>

>     ---

Phil.Perry(at)netapp.com
Guest

Posted: Mon May 10, 2010 8:43 am Post subject: RV-10 Fire

I can’t see how a vapor sensor and indicator light would be a Darwin award winner or a modification of significance in any way.  We already install CO  vapor sensors to protect against something unseen, this is no different.  If I’m wrong, please correct me or explain why my thinking is messed up because I just don’t see anything wrong with it.  

   

Some could argue that it’s not necessary and their perspective would be correct too.  After all, we’ve only had one plane explode on us and we don’t even know the cause of it.  Any changes could be perceived as a knee-jerk reaction; and at this point they are.  

   

I would think twice about shooting Halon into the tunnel though.  In an explosion it wouldn’t help (except for a post-explosion fire) and I prefer to keep that stuff outside the cabin.  

   

Phil  

   

   

   

     

From: ddddsp1(at)juno.com [mailto:ddddsp1(at)juno.com] 

 Sent: Monday, May 10, 2010 11:05 AM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: RV-10 Fire  

  

   

Come on Stein.......................you take all the fun out of reading these post when you add COMMON SENSE into the mix!      

Have to share this recent experience to show how even builders who seek help from other builders can be a danger to themselves.        An RV10 builder had shared with me how he had just completed fitting his doors and was very proud of how well they fit.  He then put on the Vans stock grey door seal..........and now the doors required several pounds of force to get them shut.  BTW he did install the new Safety latch per Vans.  Next fix was to harden the door to the rear and put a handle there so he could pull the door in at the front and rear.  After all was said and done the doors shut ............but the seal deformed the door and it was not flush to the canopy.    So he asks me how did we get our doors to fit and close so well?  When I showed him the COMMON SENSE approach to sealing doors on the RV10 without requiring any pressure to close them..............he chuckled and said..........That will not work on my plane!  LOL  And we wonder how doors come off these planes?    The point I am making and what I think Stein is making is................a knee jerk reaction and over modifying a proven design can be more dangerous then a little COMMON SENSE.     

Until that happens the list will continue to be a great source of information and entertainment unless Stein stops it with his Devils Advocate stuff.............lol  

Dean  



 

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ricksked(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Mon May 10, 2010 9:08 am Post subject: RV-10 Fire

Actually Halon would form a non explosive vapor environment over any puddled fuel. Fighter aircraft blow the Halon bottle into the fuel tanks to limit their ability to explode if hit by anti aircraft anything. Least that's what I've been told. FWIW I think a 1/4 cup of gasoline will yield enough vapor to produce an explosion equivalent to several sticks of TNT. Carbon Monoxide is odorless, I can justify that sensor, I would seriously consider investing in the best fuel "system" money can buy. My annual is gonna start next weekend. First thing on my list is to order the Teflon lines to replace the braided one I made initially. Nothing wrong with them but they can be made better. The pressure produced on Todd's incident must have been pretty high to blow out the windows. I suspect it was not the tunnel that blew but fuel vapors in the low lying areas of the aircraft. Gasoline vapors in that much concentration would have been very detectible to the nose if they had been near their heads. Just thinking out loud. Glad they are OK. 



Rick S.

N246RS

Flying

---- "Perry wrote: 

 	  Quote: 	
		   I can't see how a vapor sensor and indicator light would be a Darwin

 award winner or a modification of significance in any way.  We already

 install CO  vapor sensors to protect against something unseen, this is

 no different.  If I'm wrong, please correct me or explain why my

 thinking is messed up because I just don't see anything wrong with it.

 

  

 

 Some could argue that it's not necessary and their perspective would be

 correct too.  After all, we've only had one plane explode on us and we

 don't even know the cause of it.  Any changes could be perceived as a

 knee-jerk reaction; and at this point they are.

 

  

 

 I would think twice about shooting Halon into the tunnel though.  In an

 explosion it wouldn't help (except for a post-explosion fire) and I

 prefer to keep that stuff outside the cabin.

 

  

 

 Phil

 

  

 

  

 

  

 

  

 

 From: ddddsp1(at)juno.com [mailto:ddddsp1(at)juno.com] 

 Sent: Monday, May 10, 2010 11:05 AM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: RV-10 Fire

 

  

 

 Come on Stein.......................you take all the fun out of reading

 these post when you add COMMON SENSE into the mix!    

 

 Have to share this recent experience to show how even builders who seek

 help from other builders can be a danger to themselves.        An RV10

 builder had shared with me how he had just completed fitting his doors

 and was very proud of how well they fit.  He then put on the Vans stock

 grey door seal..........and now the doors required several pounds of

 force to get them shut.  BTW he did install the new Safety latch per

 Vans.  Next fix was to harden the door to the rear and put a handle

 there so he could pull the door in at the front and rear.  After all was

 said and done the doors shut ............but the seal deformed the door

 and it was not flush to the canopy.    So he asks me how did we get our

 doors to fit and close so well?  When I showed him the COMMON SENSE

 approach to sealing doors on the RV10 without requiring any pressure to

 close them..............he chuckled and said..........That will not work

 on my plane!  LOL  And we wonder how doors come off these planes?    The

 point I am making and what I think Stein is making is................a

 knee jerk reaction and over modifying a proven design can be more

 dangerous then a little COMMON SENSE.   

 

 Until that happens the list will continue to be a great source of

 information and entertainment unless Stein stops it with his Devils

 Advocate stuff.............lol

 

 Dean

 

 

 

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