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Banner towing

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cjaviator(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2010 12:32 am Post subject: Banner towing

Hi all...

 Just wondering if anyone has ever put a banner towing rig on a CJ (or Yak)?

 Personally I don't really want to know about it, but a customer has posed the question!

  

 regards, Jay

 New Zealand

  [quote][b]

drc(at)wscare.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2010 4:35 am Post subject: Banner towing

All I know is - I had a Wilga 35 (experimental exhibition) and even though it was approved for such in the POH, I could not get it in the OL's.  Also since it is a commercial activity I as told it was off limits in an expermental exhibition.  I assume the same is true in a Yak or CJ.



Herb



On Jul 12, 2010, at 3:30 AM, Jay McIntyre wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  Hi all...

 Just wondering if anyone has ever put a banner towing rig on a CJ (or Yak)?

 Personally I don't really want to know about it, but a customer has posed the question!

  

 regards, Jay

 New Zealand

   	  Quote: 	
		  

	
	




 Dr. Herb Coussons, MD

drc(at)wscare.com (drc(at)wscare.com)

2641 Development Drive

Green Bay, WI  54311

Cell 920-639-8434

Work 920-338-6868

Fax 920-338-6869 

 



 [quote][b]

dsavarese0812(at)bellsout
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2010 4:43 am Post subject: Banner towing

100% correct Herb.

 Dennis

 [quote]   ---

mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2010 7:40 am Post subject: Banner towing

Has anyone had any success at all in getting any original Operating

Limitations removed?  



Mark Bitterlich

--

k7wx

Joined: 24 May 2010
Posts: 117

Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2010 8:11 am Post subject: Banner towing

Mark,



Yes. I was able to work with the local FSDO. When he came out and did my inspection at the end of last year, we took the opportunity to delete some of the original operating limitations from 2001. He also added one or two others that he said were since mandated. 



My guess is that if you want to have your limitations changed, it will require a new inspection and some time on the phone with the FSDO inspector beforehand. 



Warren Hill

On Jul 12, 2010, at 8:39 AM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E wrote:



[quote] 

 

 Has anyone had any success at all in getting any original Operating

 Limitations removed?  

 

 Mark Bitterlich

 

 

 --

mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2010 9:00 am Post subject: Banner towing

Thanks for writing Warren.  



You said: "When he came out and did my inspection at the end of last

year, we took the opportunity to delete some of the original operating

limitations from 2001"   



Could you please elaborate on that?  What "inspection" was being

performed?  Who in fact changed the operating limitations?  Your Safety

Inspector?  What limitations were removed and which added?  



My info to date (EAA, AOPA, Legal people) tell me that no FAA FSDO may

"add" to the list of Operating Limitations unless you desire them to be

added.  My local FSDO indeed added to mine and I objected to it, quoted

what the EAA had told me, and they immediately took those additions out.

So there seems to at least be some truth to the issue of not adding any.

When I broached the issue about REMOVING certain Operating Limitations,

the local FSDO said that they would have to submit that to "Higher

Authority".  



It seems the central theme to all of the discussions concerning the FAA

is that there just is no uniformity.  They really do act like little

"Fiefdoms" when it comes to what one allows, and the next one does not.

Mark

--

k7wx

Joined: 24 May 2010
Posts: 117

Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2010 9:35 am Post subject: Banner towing

Mark,



I would have to go back an look at my original operating limitations for specifics. 



When I bought my CJ last year, I started a dialog with the FSDO regarding paperwork. My contact there told me I had to be issued a new special airworthiness certificate. With this came a review of my original operating limitations (which were a horrible mess) and he even asked for my input. We exchanged several e-mails with my ideas as to what should be taken out, inaccuracies and redundancies cleaned up, etc. When he came to my hanger to do the inspection, he had the new set of operating limitations which were very close to what I asked for, as well as what he said were "mandates" from a recent order. Most of the inspection was going through my logbooks and looking at serial numbers. Very pleasant experience, nothing weird and certainly nothing confrontational. He actually did a good job of cleaning up my original paperwork, which was beyond confusing. 



 	  Quote: 	
		  From previous posts, I can see that not everyone has had this kind of experience with their local FSDO. 


	


Warren



On Jul 12, 2010, at 9:59 AM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E wrote:



[quote] 

 

 Thanks for writing Warren.  

 

 You said: "When he came out and did my inspection at the end of last

 year, we took the opportunity to delete some of the original operating

 limitations from 2001"   

 

 Could you please elaborate on that?  What "inspection" was being

 performed?  Who in fact changed the operating limitations?  Your Safety

 Inspector?  What limitations were removed and which added?  

 

 My info to date (EAA, AOPA, Legal people) tell me that no FAA FSDO may

 "add" to the list of Operating Limitations unless you desire them to be

 added.  My local FSDO indeed added to mine and I objected to it, quoted

 what the EAA had told me, and they immediately took those additions out.

 So there seems to at least be some truth to the issue of not adding any.

 

 

 When I broached the issue about REMOVING certain Operating Limitations,

 the local FSDO said that they would have to submit that to "Higher

 Authority".  

 

 It seems the central theme to all of the discussions concerning the FAA

 is that there just is no uniformity.  They really do act like little

 "Fiefdoms" when it comes to what one allows, and the next one does not.

 

 

 Mark

 

 

 --

bwade154(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2010 6:33 pm Post subject: Banner towing

Sure Mark got that 300 mile thing removed and no night flying removed and no instrument fling removed just had to find the proper inspector he did want to see the airplane and paperwork. Warren just think of the lousy inspector the previous owner had if the OL was as screwed up as you said, so what did the inspector add and remove?

 Bill Wade 

 Yak 52



 

   From: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil>

To: yak-list(at)matronics.com

Sent: Mon, July 12, 2010 11:39:15 AM

Subject: RE: Banner towing



--> Yak-List message posted by: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil (mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil)>



Has anyone had any success at all in getting any original Operating

Limitations removed?  



Mark Bitterlich

--

k7wx

Joined: 24 May 2010
Posts: 117

Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2010 11:44 pm Post subject: Banner towing

Bill,



I'll need to go to the hanger to get copies of the original and updated operating limitations. 

From what I recall in speaking with the examiner, operating limitations come in the form of numbered paragraphs that are cut from some source document using a word processor and pasted into what they're working on. My first "edit" of the new operating limitations was reviewed by a working airline pilot who noticed that several paragraphs were not only redundant, but actually superseded others. The examiner agreed and those were deleted. No drama. 

Form this thread I get the impression that some parts of the operating limitations for an experimental exhibition aircraft are mandatory, while others may be at the discretion of the examiner. Get the right guy and things make sense. 

Warren



 

On Jul 12, 2010, at 4:13 PM, bill wade wrote:

[quote]Sure Mark got that 300 mile thing removed and no night flying removed and no instrument fling removed just had to find the proper inspector he did want to see the airplane and paperwork. Warren just think of the lousy inspector the previous owner had if the OL was as screwed up as you said, so what did the inspector add and remove?

Bill Wade

Yak 52

From: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil (mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil)>

To: yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)

Sent: Mon, July 12, 2010 11:39:15 AM

Subject: RE: Banner towing



--> Yak-List message posted by: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil (mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil)>



Has anyone had any success at all in getting any original Operating

Limitations removed?  



Mark Bitterlich

--

bwade154(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 6:39 am Post subject: Banner towing

The thing that really concerns me is the no flight over densely populated thing that they put in OL, with urban sprawl its kind of hard not to fly over someones house, talk to almost any inspector and they feel that two guys standing next to an outhouse in the Arctic is considered densely populated (that bit me in the ass many years ago). 

 Bill

   From: Warren Hill <k7wx(at)earthlink.net>

To: yak-list(at)matronics.com

Sent: Mon, July 12, 2010 11:36:45 PM

Subject: Re: Banner towing

Bill,  

 I'll need to go to the hanger to get copies of the original and updated operating limitations. 

 From what I recall in speaking with the examiner, operating limitations come in the form of numbered paragraphs that are cut from some source document using a word processor and pasted into what they're working on. My first "edit" of the new operating limitations was reviewed by a working airline pilot who noticed that several paragraphs were not only redundant, but actually superseded others. The examiner agreed and those were deleted. No drama. 

 Form this thread I get the impression that some parts of the operating limitations for an experimental exhibition aircraft are mandatory, while others may be at the discretion of the examiner. Get the right guy and things make sense. 

 Warren

  On Jul 12, 2010, at 4:13 PM, bill wade wrote:

 [quote]   Sure Mark got that 300 mile thing removed and no night flying removed and no instrument fling removed just had to find the proper inspector he did want to see the airplane and paperwork. Warren just think of the lousy inspector the previous owner had if the OL was as screwed up as you said, so what did the inspector add and remove?

 Bill Wade

 Yak 52

   From: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil (mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil)>

To: yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)

Sent: Mon, July 12, 2010 11:39:15 AM

Subject: RE: Banner towing

--> Yak-List message posted by: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil (mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil)>

Has anyone had any success at all in getting any original Operating

Limitations removed?  

Mark Bitterlich

--

mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 7:39 am Post subject: Banner towing

Seems like another open ended way for the FAA to "getcha" doesn't it?   



I think again that the answer to that is to know more than the FAA.

When asked why you flew over a "certain area", the answer is simply that

you HAD to because of Flight Safety considerations.  Other traffic in

the area is a good one.  "Mr. FAA, I had to divert over that densely

populated area because of other aircraft that I was trying to avoid in

flight".  Or come up with something else.   Cloud cover.  Thunderstorms.

Etc.  Bottom line, Flight Safety over-rides any and all Operating

Limitations, and as long as the FAA can not prove otherwise, they have

to accept what you say.  The burden of proof is on them.  



Concur on the FAA's description of "densely populated" as well.  That

came up when a guy flew at 500 feet over a boat in the water.  FAA

claimed the boat represented a densely populated area and he should have

been at 1000 feet.  Sigh.... Small "N" numbers on your aircraft... Never

fly low over the same area twice, never circle at a low altitude, always

be aware that every person and his brother now have a camera handy.

But, they usually take a few seconds to realize that they can take a

picture, they have to get it out, and get it on target, at which

point... Hopefully... You're GONE.  



Mark

--

viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 8:29 am Post subject: Banner towing

The element of surprise always works well. Don't fly the same cardinal

headings for the alleged low flight. Re-attaches are never good. Avoid

frequenting the same area on the same days at the same times of the day. Fly

fast and don't linger around. 

You can usually expect the locals that you just bombed to be pretty pissed

especially if you have to exit a failing aircraft and join their midst.

Most Kiwis' do not have a clue what altitude you  were at when you flew

over. You were just loud so you had to be low. Besides speed can be

converted to altitude if you do have to bail out or select a field to land

in. 

Fly safe and always check 6,

Doc



--

N642K

Joined: 23 Jul 2008
Posts: 84

Posted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 2:57 pm Post subject: Re: Banner towing

One pass and haul ass.

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