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OT starting build

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raymondj(at)frontiernet.n
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 1:07 am Post subject: OT starting build

I vaguely recall hearing that it is recommended that I contact the FAA 

when I start building an aircraft.  Can anyone tell me where to find the 

info on who I should contact.  I've spent hours digging around in that 

disorganized pile of information the EAA calls a web site.  Any help 

would be appreciated.



do not archive



Thanks,



Raymond Julian

Kettle River, MN

bgray(at)glasair.org
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 2:37 am Post subject: OT starting build

Never hear of that one. There used to be a requirement for an FAA

preclose inspection for the wing and HStab, but that's handled by the

EAA technical counselor program now.



No, there is no requirement to notify the FAA of anything except your

final inspection.



The FAA has a special Advisory Circular about this topic. A call to your

local FSDO office will result in an information bundle of AC's and

forms.



Bruce

www.Glasair.org 



--

dalamphere(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 3:01 am Post subject: OT starting build

Raymond,



The EAA has a great package of forms and info on registering your homebuilt.

It also includes some labels you can use for your panel.



I used this package and I had no problems dealing with the FAA when I

went through the airworthiness inspection. The inspector I dealt with 

recommended

it to another builder.



It seems like the FAA these days is really is more concerned about your 

paperwork

than your workmanship. My inspector did know what he was doing, ex A+P and 

all..



Here's the link to it:



    http://www.shopeaa.com/amateur-builtcertificationkit.aspx



Dave

---

dee.whittington(at)gmail.
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 5:41 am Post subject: OT starting build

Bruce and all,



 More than once I've heard reps from our local FSDO urge local builders to contact their office before starting a project.  I don't think there is any regulatory requirement, just that they have found when the project is finished some builders are not aware of the proper documentation, records and procedures they should have followed. They really do want to help. We have a particularly friendly FSDO office to homebuilders here in Richmond.



 Dee



 At 06:34 AM 8/19/2010, you wrote:

 [quote]--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bruce Gray" <bgray(at)glasair.org>



 Never hear of that one. There used to be a requirement for an FAA

 preclose inspection for the wing and HStab, but that's handled by the

 EAA technical counselor program now.



 No, there is no requirement to notify the FAA of anything except your

 final inspection.



 The FAA has a special Advisory Circular about this topic. A call to your

 local FSDO office will result in an information bundle of AC's and

 forms.



 Bruce

 www.Glasair.org 



 --

lists(at)stevet.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 6:35 am Post subject: OT starting build

Let me offer an alternative view.  I just recently had my project certificated, working through the Van Nuys FSDO.  The folks in the Van Nuys office held up my certification for months, having pulled out of the archives a memo restricting flights of experimentals from my home airport.  The memo had long since been cancelled, but when I applied for my certification through my DAR, they simply responded with a "No."  They did not offer any alternatives, just ,"No".  They actually told my DAR that I could appeal the decision, but the chances for a different outcome was nil.  I had to engage the National EAA for help, and two months later, the FSDO finally relented.  



Further, the FSDO refused to issue a repairman certificate until I had completed my 40 hour flight test period, for which they had no authority at all.  



My experience indicates that the FSDO is not your friend.  Your mileage may vary.   



I used the EAA certification packet as well, and, other than a obstinate FSDO, guided me to a successful certification.  I wholeheartedly endorse the EAA packet.

Steve Thomas

________________________________________________________________________





On Aug 19, 2010, at 6:40 AM, DeWitt Whittington wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Bruce and all,

 

 More than once I've heard reps from our local FSDO urge local builders to contact their office before starting a project.  I don't think there is any regulatory requirement, just that they have found when the project is finished some builders are not aware of the proper documentation, records and procedures they should have followed. They really do want to help. We have a particularly friendly FSDO office to homebuilders here in Richmond.

 

 Dee

dalamphere(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 8:53 am Post subject: OT starting build

I had to wait for completion of my 40 hrs also, before the FSDO would give 

me my repairman's certificate. The inspector's reason was that there have 

been so many experimentals completed but never got to 40 hrs - so why bother 

with the paperwork.



After my 40hrs I went to the FSDO office (right near Dulles airport) and 

sure enough, the inspector reviewed my paperwork and got me the certificate.



I understand there are a lot of the "other kind" of inspectors, so I guess I 

got off rather easily.



Dave

Wittman Tailwind N365DL



---

Kellym

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1705
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

Posted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 1:59 pm Post subject: OT starting build

There is another avenue that can be pursued with finding out what 

issues are causing the problem with the FSDO, although it may or may not 

take higher level involvement. EAA Tech counselors, and DARs often have 

their own personal contacts in the FSDO, or you may be able to find a 

FAAST team rep who can go to bat for you with the FSDO. Wearing both 

Tech Counselor and FAAST hats I can talk to my FAAST FAA rep, who has an 

office in the local FSDO, but works for the regional FSDO. He has the 

experience and contacts on the inside to at least get answers, and if 

they aren't satisfactory, then you can bring in the big guns. But it 

often does work to solve things at the lowest possible level, before 

people get their heels dug in defending their position. Especially when 

a colleague can gently say to the inspector, you know that memo was 

rescinded last year, maybe while you were on vacation. That way everyone 

saves face.

Kelly

On 8/19/2010 7:29 AM, Steve Thomas wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Let me offer an alternative view.  I just recently had my project certificated, working through the Van Nuys FSDO.  The folks in the Van Nuys office held up my certification for months, having pulled out of the archives a memo restricting flights of experimentals from my home airport.  The memo had long since been cancelled, but when I applied for my certification through my DAR, they simply responded with a "No."  They did not offer any alternatives, just ,"No".  They actually told my DAR that I could appeal the decision, but the chances for a different outcome was nil.  I had to engage the National EAA for help, and two months later, the FSDO finally relented.



 Further, the FSDO refused to issue a repairman certificate until I had completed my 40 hour flight test period, for which they had no authority at all.



 My experience indicates that the FSDO is not your friend.  Your mileage may vary.

_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor # 5286
KCHD

lists(at)stevet.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 2:46 pm Post subject: OT starting build

I certainly appreciate that saving face is a good objective.  However, "No" does not leave much room for maneuvering.  I actually contacted several resources that had some influence with my FSDO and they all told me the same thing.  There was nothing they could do.  I even had an inside contact who did not even know that my problem was eventually resolved.  Not real effective communication even within the office.

I would have loved to have a reasonable situation to work with - it was not to be.

Steve

________________________________________________________________________

On Aug 19, 2010, at 2:56 PM, Kelly McMullen wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 There is another avenue that can be pursued with finding out what issues are causing the problem with the FSDO, although it may or may not take higher level involvement. EAA Tech counselors, and DARs often have their own personal contacts in the FSDO, or you may be able to find a FAAST team rep who can go to bat for you with the FSDO. Wearing both Tech Counselor and FAAST hats I can talk to my FAAST FAA rep, who has an office in the local FSDO, but works for the regional FSDO. He has the experience and contacts on the inside to at least get answers, and if they aren't satisfactory, then you can bring in the big guns. But it often does work to solve things at the lowest possible level, before people get their heels dug in defending their position. Especially when a colleague can gently say to the inspector, you know that memo was rescinded last year, maybe while you were on vacation. That way everyone saves face.

 Kelly

 On 8/19/2010 7:29 AM, Steve wrote:

> 

> 

> Let me offer an alternative view.  I just recently had my project certificated, working through the Van Nuys FSDO.  The folks in the Van Nuys office held up my certification for months, having pulled out of the archives a memo restricting flights of experimentals from my home airport.  The memo had long since been cancelled, but when I applied for my certification through my DAR, they simply responded with a "No."  They did not offer any alternatives, just ,"No".  They actually told my DAR that I could appeal the decision, but the chances for a different outcome was nil.  I had to engage the National EAA for help, and two months later, the FSDO finally relented.

> 

> Further, the FSDO refused to issue a repairman certificate until I had completed my 40 hour flight test period, for which they had no authority at all.

> 

> My experience indicates that the FSDO is not your friend.  Your mileage may vary.

bicyclop(at)pacbell.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 20, 2010 8:54 am Post subject: OT starting build

Oh man. It's hard to believe that this is still going on at VNY FSDO. About 5 years ago, I walked in there with an experimental airworthiness certificate and a set of operating limitations which read "Day VFR only" and had no paragraph on how to manage major modifications. I requested a new set of oplims with the current wording so that I could install a wing leveler and IFR equipment. This should be a 30 minute job. At the end of the week, when I called to confirm our appointment to hand over the new oplims, I was informed that flights of any experimental aircraft were not allowed at WHP, VNY, BUR or SBA. I said "Excuse me? Are you telling me that our airplane, which had it's 1st flight at WHP and has been operating continuously there since, along with about 50 other homebuilts are not legal?" I got off the phone and called EAA. Their point man offered to call and talk to the airworthiness inspector and did. I finally got my new certificate and oplims in the middle of the next week. As soon as I reported to EAA that I had the papers in hand, they took it up with the FAA in DC, and within a couple of weeks, a new memo was issued from DC, clarifying the issue (I thought). This is the first I've heard that the dreaded VNY memo is still rearing it's ugly head.

 

 By the way, my airworthiness inspector was so clueless that I had to point him to the FAA website for the correct wording for the oplims and pretty much had to write them myself for their approval.

 

 Steve, at what airport are you based and which DAR did you use?

 

 Pax,

 

 Ed Holyoke

 RV-6A  

 RV-6 (under construction)

 

 Steve Thomas wrote: [quote]    	  Quote: 	
		  --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Steve Thomas <lists(at)stevet.net> (lists(at)stevet.net)



I certainly appreciate that saving face is a good objective.  However, "No" does not leave much room for maneuvering.  I actually contacted several resources that had some influence with my FSDO and they all told me the same thing.  There was nothing they could do.  I even had an inside contact who did not even know that my problem was eventually resolved.  Not real effective communication even within the office.



I would have loved to have a reasonable situation to work with - it was not to be.

Steve

________________________________________________________________________





On Aug 19, 2010, at 2:56 PM, Kelly McMullen wrote:



        	  Quote: 	
		  --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com> (kellym(at)aviating.com)



There is another avenue that can be pursued with finding out what issues are causing the problem with the FSDO, although it may or may not take higher level involvement. EAA Tech counselors, and DARs often have their own personal contacts in the FSDO, or you may be able to find a FAAST team rep who can go to bat for you with the FSDO. Wearing both Tech Counselor and FAAST hats I can talk to my FAAST FAA rep, who has an office in the local FSDO, but works for the regional FSDO. He has the experience and contacts on the inside to at least get answers, and if they aren't satisfactory, then you can bring in the big guns. But it often does work to solve things at the lowest possible level, before people get their heels dug in defending their position. Especially when a colleague can gently say to the inspector, you know that memo was rescinded last year, maybe while you were on vacation. That way everyone saves face.

Kelly

On 8/19/2010 7:29 AM, Steve wrote:

            	  Quote: 	
		  -->  AeroElectric-List message posted by: Steve Thomas<lists(at)stevet.net> (lists(at)stevet.net)



Let me offer an alternative view.  I just recently had my project certificated, working through the Van Nuys FSDO.  The folks in the Van Nuys office held up my certification for months, having pulled out of the archives a memo restricting flights of experimentals from my home airport.  The memo had long since been cancelled, but when I applied for my certification through my DAR, they simply responded with a "No."  They did not offer any alternatives, just ,"No".  They actually told my DAR that I could appeal the decision, but the chances for a different outcome was nil.  I had to engage the National EAA for help, and two months later, the FSDO finally relented.



Further, the FSDO refused to issue a repairman certificate until I had completed my 40 hour flight test period, for which they had no authority at all.



My experience indicates that the FSDO is not your friend.  Your mileage may vary.

      	
     

    	
   

  	
 [b]

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 20, 2010 10:42 am Post subject: OT starting build

 	  Quote: 	
		  

 By the way, my airworthiness inspector was so clueless that I had to point him to the FAA website for the correct wording for the oplims and pretty much had to write them myself for their approval. 	


    I could tell you story about my experience with

    a FSDO in NJ while trying to assist a Twin Comanche

    owner install a Z-14 architecture while making the

    airplane about 40 pounds lighter.



    Then there's the saga Alaskan L-40 Fiasco

    of some years back . . .



  http://www.aeroelectric.com/Reference_Docs/FAA/Alaskan_L-40_Fiasco/ 



    I've observed no signs that things are getting

    any better. Over 40+ years observation

    of FAA transactions in the TC aircraft world,

    the expense of getting a repair, a product

    improvement or a new idea to market becomes more

    costly every year.



    If the practices of 1980, 1990, or 2000

    were demonstrated to be higher risk ("Go forth

    young man and make aviation SAFER"), then perhaps

    growth of the certification mountain would

    be understandable and justified. But out of

    tens of thousands of devices of my design 

    produced by my employers over the last 40

    years, I'll bet not one has failed in a manner

    that caused loss of an airframe or life. Further,

    had today's cert standards been applied to those

    products, its a sure bet that the numbers of such

    devices still in service would be no greater

    than it has proven to be without such standards.

    Such are the virtues of failure tolerant design.



    I further observe that folks in charge of making

    decisions on behalf the FAA are increasingly ignorant

    of the technology, processes and hazard assessment

    over which they preside.



    Present trends plotted into the future do

    not bode well when experience and common sense

    are replaced by policy and procedure.



 

 

        Bob . . .    [quote][b]

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