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rv10builder(at)verizon.ne
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 Posted: Wed Aug 25, 2010 8:08 am Post subject: lessons learned installing plexiglas with Weld-on 10 |
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From: "eagerlee" <eagerlee(at)comcast.net>
Sent: Monday, March 03, 2008 10:08 PM
To: <rv10-list(at)matronics.com>
Subject: lessons learned installing plexiglas with Weld-on 10
| Quote: |
We just finished building our windscreen faring so now its on to bigger
and better things like "trimming out" the final finish of the doors,
windows and windscreen. The gluing of the door windows was easy. The
first one we did on the bench per the directions except we applied freshly
mixed glue to both the plexi and the fiberglass ledge. A few days later
we installed the door to the cabin and then: AHH!! We found 3 small
cracks on the edge where one of the clamps held the plexi tight against
the fiberglass ledge. We stop drilled the cracks and changed technique
for the second door/window installation. The door was installed on the
cabin complete with hinges and latches and trimmed to give a good flush
fit. We used four nylon straps around the entire fuselage and cabin with
wooden blocks to apply pressure at the window edges. This pressure was
left in place for about 22 hours and the results were great with NO
cracks. We then did both rear cabin windows together using !
the four strap method of holding them in place and when we removed the
straps and blocks we were saddened by the discovery of dozens of small
"feathery" cracks at the pressure points. We thought of starting over
with the rear windows but e-mailed Van's and when Scott said that other
builders reported these cracks (Van's RV-10 with 1100 hours has them) but
there have been ZERO failures, we decided to stress the cracks to see if
we could get them to "run" into the center of the window. We applied heat
to get the temperature of the window bond up to where the Summer Colorado
sun might cause it to rise. Then we applied an ice pack to get the
temperature down to where the lower flight levels might cause it to fall.
An amazing result - the cracks disappeared. I don't mean that they went
away - I mean they were VERY difficult (in some cases, impossible) to see.
We did the windscreen with a combination of clamps on the sides and a
strap around the cabin to give us holding pre!
ssure across the top. We got several small cracks at the pres!
sure poi
nts of the clamps - none at the strap. Our final conclusion is that the
cracks are caused by high clamping pressure over time and the best way to
avoid them when using Weld-on 10 is to remove your clamps (or straps)
after just a few hours, maybe three of four, and keep the pressure down to
no more than is needed to keep the plexi flush with the cabin. We heated
all our weld-on 10 bonds to stress relieve them.
Paul Hahn
#40203
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http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=167577#167577
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AirMike
Joined: 27 Feb 2007
Posts: 514
Location: Nevada
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| Posted: Fri Aug 27, 2010 6:47 am Post subject: lessons learned installing plexiglas with Weld-on 10 |
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This has been discussed many times before on this forum, just my $.02 - I am not sure that there is any way to properly retain the windows in place without a high probability of getting cracks if you use weld-on. The stuff sucks, but nobody has come up with a substitute that will perform the same function of making the windows structurally bond.
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See you OSH '18
Q/B - sold. |
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Kelly McMullen
Joined: 16 Apr 2008
Posts: 1188
Location: Sun Lakes AZ
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| Posted: Sat Aug 28, 2010 7:34 pm Post subject: lessons learned installing plexiglas with Weld-on 10 |
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It does make me wonder. The non-hardening version of PRC is used in
other aircraft to bond the plexi to the structure. Seems to work
pretty well. Can't see how plexi adds much strength to the fiberglass.
On Sat, Aug 28, 2010 at 8:18 PM, Linn Walters <pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.net> wrote:
| Quote: |
AirMike wrote:
>
>
>
> This has been discussed many times before on this forum, just my $.02 - I
> am not sure that there is any way to properly retain the windows in place
> without a high probability of getting cracks if you use weld-on. The stuff
> sucks, but nobody has come up with a substitute that will perform the same
> function of making the windows structurally bond.
>
Why does there need to be a structural bond? Any small physical change will
result in the breaking of the acrylic. Also there are many 'structural
adhesives' that don't harden, but you'd still have trouble getting a 1/2"
glue joint to fail.
Linn
> --------
> OSH '10 or Bust Q/B - finally done
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=310274#310274
>
>
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_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor
KCHD |
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AirMike
Joined: 27 Feb 2007
Posts: 514
Location: Nevada
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| Posted: Sun Aug 29, 2010 6:41 am Post subject: installing plexiglas with Weld-on 10 |
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The word that I heard (do not know - rumor or fact) was that Vans tested a prototype cabin/plane with normally installed windows and when dropped on its top, the windows popped out and the the cabin deformed. The word is that they then did it with weld-on adhered windows and the windows stayed in place and the cabin did not deform.
Truth or rumor that is what swayed my decision to use weld-on. Does anyone know the facts?
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_________________
See you OSH '18
Q/B - sold. |
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aerosport1
Joined: 07 Nov 2007
Posts: 231
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| Posted: Sun Aug 29, 2010 7:00 am Post subject: lessons learned installing plexiglas with Weld-on 10 |
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I used a Lord urethane adhesive to install my windows. I did some test
With it and the Weld on and it out performed the weld on. It also does
not
Cure as hard as the weld on so it will allow joint to flex a little
and not crack
Around window edge. Time will tell but
So far so good. It is also much easier
To use than weld on. It cleans up with
Ppg dt870 urethane reducer and will not attack the acrylic as weld on
does.
I used one with a 20 minute work time.
Geoff
Sent from my iPhone Geoff
On Aug 29, 2010, at 10:41 AM, "AirMike" <Mikeabel(at)Pacbell.net> wrote:
| Quote: |
The word that I heard (do not know - rumor or fact) was that Vans
tested a prototype cabin/plane with normally installed windows and
when dropped on its top, the windows popped out and the the cabin
deformed. The word is that they then did it with weld-on adhered
windows and the windows stayed in place and the cabin did not deform.
Truth or rumor that is what swayed my decision to use weld-on. Does
anyone know the facts?
--------
OSH '10 or Bust
Q/B - finally done
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=310478#310478
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| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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_________________
Geoff Combs
RV-10 QB N829GW
Flying 500 hrs
40033 |
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Kelly McMullen
Joined: 16 Apr 2008
Posts: 1188
Location: Sun Lakes AZ
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| Posted: Sun Aug 29, 2010 7:10 am Post subject: lessons learned installing plexiglas with Weld-on 10 |
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Geoff, can you advise on supply sources? Perhaps automotive window or
body shops?
On Sun, Aug 29, 2010 at 7:59 AM, g.combs <g.combs(at)aerosportmodeling.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
I used a Lord urethane adhesive to install my windows. I did some test
With it and the Weld on and it out performed the weld on. It also does not
Cure as hard as the weld on so it will allow joint to flex a little and not
crack
Around window edge. Time will tell but
So far so good. It is also much easier
To use than weld on. It cleans up with
Ppg dt870 urethane reducer and will not attack the acrylic as weld on does.
I used one with a 20 minute work time.
Geoff
Sent from my iPhone Geoff
On Aug 29, 2010, at 10:41 AM, "AirMike" <Mikeabel(at)Pacbell.net> wrote:
>
>
> The word that I heard (do not know - rumor or fact) was that Vans tested a
> prototype cabin/plane with normally installed windows and when dropped on
> its top, the windows popped out and the the cabin deformed. The word is that
> they then did it with weld-on adhered windows and the windows stayed in
> place and the cabin did not deform.
> Truth or rumor that is what swayed my decision to use weld-on. Does anyone
> know the facts?
>
> --------
> OSH '10 or Bust
> Q/B - finally done
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=310478#310478
>
|
| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor
KCHD |
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jeff(at)westcottpress.com
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Aug 29, 2010 8:27 am Post subject: lessons learned installing plexiglas with Weld-on 10 |
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That word was from me Mike... after a conversation with the windscreen
manufacturer. It still qualifies as second hand information, so take
it for what ever you might think it's worth. Here's my post on Weld-
On 10:
| Quote: | > As you may know, I attempted to install my left side door window
> last week with somewhat disastrous results. As best I can tell, my
> shop was too hot (about 85 degrees) and the Weld-on 10 set up too
> quickly. The bond to the fiberglass was perfect, but I had voids
> between the window and the dried Weld-on 10 in over half of the
> bonding area. I had also failed to remove the masking tape from
> the inside of the window soon enough and had a fair amount of
> masking tape trapped by the Weld-on bead.
> My initial thought was to try to save the window by injecting epoxy
> into the gaps (as some have done with apparent success), but after
> discussions with Vans, the window manufacturer and tech support by
> the makers of Weld-on 10, I decided to route out the window and
> start over. There are some things I learned from these discussions
> that are worth sharing.
> Vans was not willing to say that the injected epoxy approach would
> work and referred me to the window manufacturer, Jeff from Airplane
> Plastics in Ohio. Jeff spent a good deal of time with me on the
> phone. He initially thought the injected epoxy idea might work and
> suggested I use Scotch Weld 2216 to accomplish the task. As we
> discussed the situation further, I was able to communicate that
> what we were really trying to do in this case was bond the window
> to the dried Weld-on 10... not the window to the fiberglass. He
> thought that could still work... as long as I could scuff up the
> Weld-on 10!
> So, I was back to square one. We started to discuss alternatives
> to Weld-on 10 for window installation. He confessed that it had
> been a long time since he had actually installed a window... then
> recollected that the windows would pop out during the structural
> roll over test on the RV-10 until Vans switched to Weld-on 10 to
> bond them in. With Weld-on 10, the window would break before the
> bond would. As I understood the conversation, Weld-on 10 was an
> important component of the plane passing the test. This made my
> decision to start over again certain.
> With that, Jeff suggested I route it out with an Onsrud carbide
> double flute 1/2" x 1/2" bit (I wound up using a similar bit I had
> in my router and it worked well), I said good bye and ponied up the
> $150 to Vans for another window.
> I also made a call to tech support at IPS, the makers of Weld-on
> 10, hoping to find another product that would stay open longer.
> Here's what I learned:
> Weld-on 10 stays open the longest of any product they have for this
> application
> At 70 degrees, there should be 15-20 minutes of time to get the job
> done (I had about 5 minutes at 85 degrees)
> Be certain you are using product less than one year from the
> manufacture date as the working time decreases with age
> They do make a dispensing gun that mixes while dispensing for $300-
> $400. Weld-on 10 is packed in to a cartridge for this purpose and
> called Weld-on 811.
> I've also combed through the archives and had I done that sooner
> might have avoided some of these problems. Both Lew Gallagher and
> John Gonzalez had very useful posts (hindsight is 20/20) in early
> January of this year.
> I'm going to wait until the fires in our local mountains have
> stopped burning and I'm able to keep the temperature in the shop at
> or below 70 degrees before I try again. I'll get a second set of
> hands to spread the Weld-on 10 more quickly and be sure to pull up
> the masking tape once the window is down securely. The gun seems a
> bit pricey and I imagine I can find a way to spread the Weld-on 10
> quickly and accurately without too much effort or expense.
> Jeff Carpenter
> 40304
> one step forward... two steps back
|
All of my windows and my windscreen are now installed. I used the
Lord Adhesive for the windows and Weld-On 10 for the windscreen. I
tested the Lord Adhesive and found it to be weaker than the Weld-On
10, but glassed over the bonded edges so I don't feel I've got an
issue there. Chemical Concepts, the source I used for the Lord
Adhesive, no longer stocks it. The last batch they sent me was out of
date and I returned it.
If I had to do it all over again, I would use the Weld-On 10 on a sub
80 degree day with a second set of hands to help me through it. Your
windows must fit well and require little to no coercion to stay in
place to avoid cracking.... and keep the acetone away from the Plexi.
The aluminum finger method works well to hold things together while
curing.
Jeff Carpenter
40304
Going up on the gear
On Aug 29, 2010, at 7:41 AM, AirMike wrote:
| Quote: |
The word that I heard (do not know - rumor or fact) was that Vans
tested a prototype cabin/plane with normally installed windows and
when dropped on its top, the windows popped out and the the cabin
deformed. The word is that they then did it with weld-on adhered
windows and the windows stayed in place and the cabin did not deform.
Truth or rumor that is what swayed my decision to use weld-on. Does
anyone know the facts?
--------
OSH '10 or Bust
Q/B - finally done
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=310478#310478
|
| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List |
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