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Batteries and fuel systems

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wdaniell(at)etb.net.co
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 12:43 pm Post subject: Batteries and fuel systems

Two questions for the assembled wisdom

    Has anyone installed a larger battery with the 914 on the basis that you might need to run the fuel pumps off it if the alternator gives up?   
Does anyone have a pic of their fuel pump installation/fuel system?

     Thanks

 

 Will

 [quote]    	  Quote: 	
		  



	
 [b]

frans(at)privatepilots.nl
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 1:01 pm Post subject: Batteries and fuel systems

On 09/06/2010 10:34 PM, William Daniell wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		      1. Has anyone installed a larger battery with the 914 on the basis

       that you might need to run the fuel pumps off it if the alternator

       gives up?


	


It takes less weight to install a secondary alternator (ACS has nice

ones that fit on the vacuum pump pad) so you never have to use the

batteries during flight and hence the batteries can be very light. You

can use the secondary alternator to power the second fuel pump, or you

can create a completely dual electrical system, and spread the load over

both buses and create redundancy for nav, com, and other essential

equipment. I have done the latter. I use an 8 Ah Odyssey battery and

this is more than sufficient for starting. Talk about weight savings! 



Also, there is a mechanical fuel pump available for the 914. Bob Borger

can tell you more about it. In this case the engine no longer depends on

the electrical system.



Installing a larger battery is the heaviest solution, and as you can

never know how much capacity the battery has (due to aging, or

incomplete charging) it is not a reliable solution and leaves you

guessing how long it will be able to keep the engine running.



Frans

g-iani(at)ntlworld.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 1:34 pm Post subject: Batteries and fuel systems

Will  

   

Attached is a picture of the fuel pump setup for G-IRON  

   

   

Ian Rickard G-IANI XS Trigear, 300hours

 Europa Club Mods Specialist

 e-mail g-iani(at)ntlworld.com   

   

   

       

From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of William Daniell

 Sent: 06 September 2010 21:34

 To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Batteries and fuel systems  

  

  

   

Two questions for the assembled wisdom    Has anyone installed a larger battery with the      914 on the basis that you might need to run the fuel pumps off it if the      alternator gives up?  
Does anyone have a pic of their fuel pump      installation/fuel system?   

Thanks

 

 Will

 

    	  Quote: 	
		      http://www.matron===================[/b]http://forums.matronics.com         - List Contribution Web generous nbsp;                        --> http://www.matronics.com/c=[/b]

06060806f.jpg

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wdaniell(at)etb.net.co
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 2:08 pm Post subject: Batteries and fuel systems

frans(at)privatepilots.nl
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 2:39 pm Post subject: Batteries and fuel systems

On 09/06/2010 11:27 PM, G-IANI wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Attached is a picture of the fuel pump setup for G-IRON


	


Nice! I love that manifold you created.

But I can't help noticing that the springs inside the filters are

missing. 



Furthermore, I would recommend to use two separate electrical connectors

for the fuel pumps. It even looks like both pumps share a common ground

wire... and this makes the system very vulnerable for a single point

failure. After all, the whole point of having two fuel pumps and two

filters is to eliminate single point failures as much as possible. As

connectors are known for their high failure rate I would highly

recommend to separate all the wires and connectors for the fuel pumps as

much as possible! You are going to hate it if this single connector

fails due to some minor corrosion while you are flying over the channel,

taking both fuel pumps out of the equation at the same time...



Frans

ptag.dev(at)tiscali.co.uk
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 3:40 pm Post subject: Batteries and fuel systems

Attention Will Daniels.  

   

Hi! Will.  

I think it should be said that the picture shown by Ian Rickard does comply with the fuel flow diagram suggested by the Europa Engineers and can be worked entirely by rubber pipes therefore excluding the specially made manifold as shown.  

However mine is the same in modular form but for the fact that my filters on G-PTAG consist of two Mini-Andair Gascolators situated between the module and the tank exits. and arranged to allow easy sampling from the belly of the aircraft of both gascolators. Also I have the Graham Singleton tank connectors which easily facilitate water drains from each side of the saddle tank.  

However from bitter experience I have also incorporated a tank top access panel (allowing annual inspection and mop out capability) whilst fitting the fuel depth gauge.  

Care needs exercising as to how the two pumps are circuited for power to ensure real redundancy Also the positioning of diodes on each pump is very relevant.  

Best regards  

Bob Harrison. G-PTAG  

         

  

From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of G-IANI

 Sent: 06 September 2010 22:27

 To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: Europa-List: Batteries and fuel systems  

  

   

Will  

   

Attached is a picture of the fuel pump setup for G-IRON  

   

   

Ian Rickard G-IANI XS Trigear, 300hours

 Europa Club Mods Specialist

 e-mail g-iani(at)ntlworld.com   

   

   

       

From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of William Daniell

 Sent: 06 September 2010 21:34

 To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Europa-List: Batteries and fuel systems  

  

  

   

Two questions for the assembled wisdom    Has anyone installed a larger battery with the      914 on the basis that you might need to run the fuel pumps off it if the      alternator gives up?  
Does anyone have a pic of their fuel pump      installation/fuel system?   

Thanks

 

 Will   	  Quote: 	
		      <sp;         - The Europa-List List utilities such as List Photoshare, and much much    --> http://www.matron===================<nbsp;     - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS via the Web    --> http://forums.matronics.com        - List Contribution Web generous nbsp;                        --> http://www.matronics.com/c=[url=http://www.matronics.com/contribution][/url] 	
  

   

       [quote][b]

rparigoris

Joined: 24 Nov 2009
Posts: 804

Posted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 4:07 pm Post subject: Re: Batteries and fuel systems

Hi Will



914 fuel system:

http://www.europaowners.org/forums/gallery2.php?g2_itemId=28612

http://www.europaowners.org/forums/gallery2.php?g2_itemId=28355

http://www.europaowners.org/forums/gallery2.php?g2_itemId=27522



Using a PC545:

http://www.europaowners.org/forums/gallery2.php?g2_itemId=30710



Also a 2.2 amp total loss NiMh battery:

http://www.europaowners.org/forums/gallery2.php?g2_itemId=30502



Using a SD20S  as mail alternator on vacuum pad and a LR3C regulator:

http://www.europaowners.org/forums/gallery2.php?g2_itemId=28318



Hope that helps.

Ron Parigoris



BTW PTAG, I was cleaning kitchen floor yesterday and washing off mop in kitchen sink. we have a yellow lab. Anyway it didn't take long for the strainer to get clogged. after a while the dog hair began to get few and far between. I decided to try an experiment, I made a template to only expose a 3/16" hole. Dog hair had no problem with just a fews hairs that would somehow lay across 3/16" hole and after a while just clog it.

I tried putting  a fine screen over intake and after a while it would clog. I tried a course screen and it would allow hairs to get through and clog the 3/16" outlet. 

I even left the drain wide opened which was about a 1" opening that had a thin cross over it with a ~ 3/16" hole in the center. Dog hair would clog that as well after a while.

Bottom line dog hair is bad stuff to get in your tank. I don't think not having a screen on tank outlets will save you by just passing hair through to filter, it will create a net and then catches debris and other hair like a magnet.

wdaniell(at)etb.net.co
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 6:40 pm Post subject: Batteries and fuel systems

thanks - oh boy and I have 4 of them!  Labs I mean.

rparigoris wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Hi Will



 914 fuel system:

 http://www.europaowners.org/forums/gallery2.php?g2_itemId=28612

 http://www.europaowners.org/forums/gallery2.php?g2_itemId=28355

 http://www.europaowners.org/forums/gallery2.php?g2_itemId=27522



 Using a PC545:

 http://www.europaowners.org/forums/gallery2.php?g2_itemId=30710



 Also a 2.2 amp total loss NiMh battery:

 http://www.europaowners.org/forums/gallery2.php?g2_itemId=30502



 Using a SD20S  as mail alternator on vacuum pad and a LR3C regulator:

 http://www.europaowners.org/forums/gallery2.php?g2_itemId=28318



 Hope that helps.

 Ron Parigoris



 BTW PTAG, I was cleaning kitchen floor yesterday and washing off mop in kitchen sink. we have a yellow lab. Anyway it didn't take long for the strainer to get clogged. after a while the dog hair began to get few and far between. I decided to try an experiment, I made a template to only expose a 3/16" hole. Dog hair had no problem with just a fews hairs that would somehow lay across 3/16" hole and after a while just clog it.

 I tried putting  a fine screen over intake and after a while it would clog. I tried a course screen and it would allow hairs to get through and clog the 3/16" outlet.

 I even left the drain wide opened which was about a 1" opening that had a thin cross over it with a ~ 3/16" hole in the center. Dog hair would clog that as well after a while.

 Bottom line dog hair is bad stuff to get in your tank. I don't think not having a screen on tank outlets will save you by just passing hair through to filter, it will create a net and then catches debris and other hair like a magnet.





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=311610#311610





 .

ptag.dev(at)tiscali.co.uk
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 07, 2010 12:24 am Post subject: Batteries and fuel systems

Hi! Ron/Will/all

Re:- finger filters etc.

"just don't remind me !" Thanks for doing the tests and making my event just

more believable.  I didn't have any followers when I scrapped the finger

filters and since then a friend has produced "brass finger tubes" with many

deburred holes in them which I am successfully flying. (he was intent on my

preservation) Of course finger filters have in the past prevented many fuel

failures but I believe they are somewhat redundant with nylon tanks. The

best way is to use pre-filters when filling the tank, or another extreme is

to "shave the dog" as Neveille Eyre, ex-Europa factory fame suggested.

Also an annual inspection and mopping out hole in the tank top would help as

per mod of fitting fuel level sensors in the tank top.

Regards

Bob Harrison G-PTAG



--

g-iani(at)ntlworld.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 07, 2010 12:34 am Post subject: Batteries and fuel systems

Frans



Thanks for your thoughts on the pump setup in G-IRON.  You are absolutely

right about the electrical connector setup.  We missed that when doing this

board even though I had separated them in G-IANI.



The filters are the later type with the cast centre section (not the tube).

These do not need the springs as the filter buts against a fixed stop.



Ian Rickard G-IANI XS Trigear, 300hours

Europa Club Mods Specialist

e-mail g-iani(at)ntlworld.com

wdaniell(at)etb.net.co
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 07, 2010 3:35 am Post subject: Batteries and fuel systems

Bob

My dogs say that that Nev's solution in unacceptable...perhaps you could 

send a pic of the mopping our hole

Will



Robert C Harrison wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Hi! Ron/Will/all

 Re:- finger filters etc.

 "just don't remind me !" Thanks for doing the tests and making my event just

 more believable.  I didn't have any followers when I scrapped the finger

 filters and since then a friend has produced "brass finger tubes" with many

 deburred holes in them which I am successfully flying. (he was intent on my

 preservation) Of course finger filters have in the past prevented many fuel

 failures but I believe they are somewhat redundant with nylon tanks. The

 best way is to use pre-filters when filling the tank, or another extreme is

 to "shave the dog" as Neveille Eyre, ex-Europa factory fame suggested.

 Also an annual inspection and mopping out hole in the tank top would help as

 per mod of fitting fuel level sensors in the tank top.

 Regards

 Bob Harrison G-PTAG

ptag.dev(at)tiscali.co.uk
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 07, 2010 4:23 am Post subject: Batteries and fuel systems

Hi! Will.

I can hear the howls of protest ....woof! in unison!

Can't help with a picture ...it's buried! However my records show 

PFA Mod 10602 perhaps Ian Rickard would help with a pdf of the mod?

Regards

Bob H G-PTAG 



--

g-iani(at)ntlworld.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 07, 2010 6:07 am Post subject: Batteries and fuel systems

Will/Bob



Mod 10602 was for the Averlec Fuel Gauge.  I never used that gauge, as

Europa introduced their fuel gauge, but the large "manhole" cover makes for

easy access to the tank.  Copy of 10602 attached.



For most purposes the hole for the Europa fuel gauge (Mod 60) should be

sufficient.  It is big enough to get a vacuum cleaner hose in.

Ian Rickard G-IANI XS Trigear, 300hours

Europa Club Mods Specialist

e-mail g-iani(at)ntlworld.com

Avelec.pdf

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DanBish

Joined: 24 May 2006
Posts: 29
Location: TUCSON, AZ

Posted: Tue Sep 07, 2010 6:43 am Post subject: Re: Batteries and fuel systems

Looks like you have more than enough to go on here but I'll chime in anyway - see:



http://www.europaowners.org/forums/gallery2.php?g2_itemId=48326



Happy building,



Dan

wdaniell(at)etb.net.co
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 07, 2010 7:57 am Post subject: Batteries and fuel systems

thanks



Yes I have this mod BUT obedient (this was the early days)  to the 

instructions it came with I put it under the headrest.....so given that 

I don't have quadruple jointed arms it will be difficult to use this as 

a mopping out hole.  That is unless someone has another mod for making 

the headrest removable - perhaps one could cut it off make a flange and 

then use screws/nut plates to put it back in place.  I suppose the other 

option is to remove the tank fuel outlet assembly and the finger 

strainers annually which looks considerably easier.



Any ideas?



Will



G-IANI wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Will/Bob



 Mod 10602 was for the Averlec Fuel Gauge.  I never used that gauge, as

 Europa introduced their fuel gauge, but the large "manhole" cover makes for

 easy access to the tank.  Copy of 10602 attached.



 For most purposes the hole for the Europa fuel gauge (Mod 60) should be

 sufficient.  It is big enough to get a vacuum cleaner hose in.

 Ian Rickard G-IANI XS Trigear, 300hours

 Europa Club Mods Specialist

 e-mail g-iani(at)ntlworld.com

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