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Toggle Switch Failure (reprise)

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sprocket(at)vx-aviation.c
Guest

Posted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 9:08 am Post subject: Toggle Switch Failure (reprise)

My (final) conclusion on toggle switch failures in  my RV-9A.

  

 In a recent Transport Canada Aviation Safety  Letter, there is an article that is relevant to the long debate we had  a few years ago about the failure of toggle switches (specifically Carling  brand) in the strobe, landing and taxi light circuits of our  aircraft.

  

 The article is here: http://www.tc.gc.ca/media/documents/ca-publications/tp185e_4_2010.pdf

  

 The summary is this:  Cessna has issued a  mandatory service bulletin to replace all subject switches used in the landing  light as well as the taxi light and rotating beacon circuits in the 100-, 200-  and 300- series.  The FAA issued an SAIB to this effect.

  

 The root cause is that the switches used were  not suitable to the applications.  Surge currents are many times (8x) the  nominal currents for lighting loads, well outside the switch ratings.   Also, the switches used did not have DC ratings.

  

 During the aeroelectric debate and Bob`s research  of the Carling switch failures, we found evidence of manufacturing problems,  however, overstressing the switches may be in fact the causal link in the  failure chain.  I used inrush current limiters on my landing light circuits  which helps.  My strobe switches did not use the limiters and failed just  short of a smoke/fire incident.  These switches have no specific DC rating,  although common use is to follow the 115VAC rated current.

  

 Therefore, my next aircraft (HR-II) is not using  switches to carry heavy loads.   Instead, it will be using DC-rated  relays (with up to 70A DC rating for resistive loads).  These should be  adequate for most loads.  The relays are controlled with low-current  switches (with gold/silver contacts).

  

 Thanks,

 Vern



   [quote][b]

fvalarm(at)rapidnet.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 9:39 am Post subject: Toggle Switch Failure (reprise)

Thanks for the follow-up on this issue Vern.  I am just  now preparing to install toggle switches and also have the Carlings.  I am  planning to use relays for the heavy loads but now am wondering if the 20 amp  relays that B and C sells will be up to the task, (if in fact inrush is 8X as  you say).  Would the inrush limiters limit it to say 2X or less and if so  where does one buy them?

  

 Bevan

 Abbotsford

 RV7A wiring



   From:  owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Vern  Little

Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2010 10:04 AM

To:  aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Toggle  Switch Failure (reprise)

 

 My (final) conclusion on toggle switch failures in  my RV-9A.

  

 In a recent Transport Canada Aviation Safety  Letter, there is an article that is relevant to the long debate we had  a few years ago about the failure of toggle switches (specifically Carling  brand) in the strobe, landing and taxi light circuits of our  aircraft.

  

 The article is here: http://www.tc.gc.ca/media/documents/ca-publications/tp185e_4_2010.pdf

  

 The summary is this:  Cessna has issued a  mandatory service bulletin to replace all subject switches used in the landing  light as well as the taxi light and rotating beacon circuits in the 100-, 200-  and 300- series.  The FAA issued an SAIB to this effect.

  

 The root cause is that the switches used were  not suitable to the applications.  Surge currents are many times (8x) the  nominal currents for lighting loads, well outside the switch ratings.   Also, the switches used did not have DC ratings.

  

 During the aeroelectric debate and Bob`s research  of the Carling switch failures, we found evidence of manufacturing problems,  however, overstressing the switches may be in fact the causal link in the  failure chain.  I used inrush current limiters on my landing light circuits  which helps.  My strobe switches did not use the limiters and failed just  short of a smoke/fire incident.  These switches have no specific DC rating,  although common use is to follow the 115VAC rated current.

  

 Therefore, my next aircraft (HR-II) is not using  switches to carry heavy loads.   Instead, it will be using DC-rated  relays (with up to 70A DC rating for resistive loads).  These should be  adequate for most loads.  The relays are controlled with low-current  switches (with gold/silver contacts).

  

 Thanks,

 Vern



[quote]



href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com

href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com

href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com

href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/chref="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List

href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com

[b]

david.nelson(at)pobox.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 10:09 am Post subject: Toggle Switch Failure (reprise)

Hi Vern,



I was just thinking about this thread the other week while hooking up my strobe 

power-supply.  The unit is a Nova XPAK-604 (IIRC) and I noticed that in the 

supplied wiring diagram that they tied the supply lead to the power source w/o 

any switches.  The unit's operation is then turned on/off by a control signal 

via a small guage wire.



I don't recall anybody else mentioning this so I'm bringing it up because I 

think it may offer a viable alternative for others that are using this unit.



The install guide is here:



http://www.strobesnmore.com/nova-x-pak-strobe-power-supplies.html



Regards,

 	 /\/elson

~~  Lately my memory seems to be like a steel trap .... without any spring.  ~~



On Wed, 3 Nov 2010, Vern Little wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   My (final) conclusion on toggle switch failures in my RV-9A.

 

 In a recent Transport Canada Aviation Safety Letter, there is an article that is relevant to the long debate we had a few years ago about the failure of toggle switches (specifically Carling

 brand) in the strobe, landing and taxi light circuits of our aircraft.

 

 The article is here: http://www.tc.gc.ca/media/documents/ca-publications/tp185e_4_2010.pdf

 

 The summary is this:  Cessna has issued a mandatory service bulletin to replace all subject switches used in the landing light as well as the taxi light and rotating beacon circuits in the

 100-, 200- and 300- series.  The FAA issued an SAIB to this effect.

 

 The root cause is that the switches used were not suitable to the applications.  Surge currents are many times (8x) the nominal currents for lighting loads, well outside the switch ratings. 

 Also, the switches used did not have DC ratings.

 

 During the aeroelectric debate and Bob`s research of the Carling switch failures, we found evidence of manufacturing problems, however, overstressing the switches may be in fact the causal

 link in the failure chain.  I used inrush current limiters on my landing light circuits which helps.  My strobe switches did not use the limiters and failed just short of a smoke/fire

 incident.  These switches have no specific DC rating, although common use is to follow the 115VAC rated current.

 

 Therefore, my next aircraft (HR-II) is not using switches to carry heavy loads.   Instead, it will be using DC-rated relays (with up to 70A DC rating for resistive loads).  These should be

 adequate for most loads.  The relays are controlled with low-current switches (with gold/silver contacts).

 

 Thanks,

 Vern

sprocket(at)vx-aviation.c
Guest

Posted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 10:51 am Post subject: Toggle Switch Failure (reprise)

Relays are cheap, even the 70A ones.  They are  mostly pin-compatible with the lower-rated ones.

 Both the relays and the limiters are available at  Digikey.  Search "automotive relay" and "inrush current  limiter".

  

 I tend to use parts from Digikey, even if available  at the local Tire and Hockey shop because of the traceability and datasheet  availability.

  

 Vern

  



  From: B Tomm (fvalarm(at)rapidnet.net) 

 Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2010 10:36 AM

 To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com (aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com)  

 Subject: RE: Toggle Switch Failure  (reprise)

 



 Thanks for the follow-up on this issue Vern.  I am just  now preparing to install toggle switches and also have the Carlings.  I am  planning to use relays for the heavy loads but now am wondering if the 20 amp  relays that B and C sells will be up to the task, (if in fact inrush is 8X as  you say).  Would the inrush limiters limit it to say 2X or less and if so  where does one buy them?

  

 Bevan

 Abbotsford

 RV7A wiring



   From:  owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Vern  Little

Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2010 10:04 AM

To:  aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Toggle  Switch Failure (reprise)

 

 My (final) conclusion on toggle switch failures in  my RV-9A.

  

 In a recent Transport Canada Aviation Safety  Letter, there is an article that is relevant to the long debate we had  a few years ago about the failure of toggle switches (specifically Carling  brand) in the strobe, landing and taxi light circuits of our  aircraft.

  

 The article is here: http://www.tc.gc.ca/media/documents/ca-publications/tp185e_4_2010.pdf

  

 The summary is this:  Cessna has issued a  mandatory service bulletin to replace all subject switches used in the landing  light as well as the taxi light and rotating beacon circuits in the 100-, 200-  and 300- series.  The FAA issued an SAIB to this effect.

  

 The root cause is that the switches used were  not suitable to the applications.  Surge currents are many times (8x) the  nominal currents for lighting loads, well outside the switch ratings.   Also, the switches used did not have DC ratings.

  

 During the aeroelectric debate and Bob`s research  of the Carling switch failures, we found evidence of manufacturing problems,  however, overstressing the switches may be in fact the causal link in the  failure chain.  I used inrush current limiters on my landing light circuits  which helps.  My strobe switches did not use the limiters and failed just  short of a smoke/fire incident.  These switches have no specific DC rating,  although common use is to follow the 115VAC rated current.

  

 Therefore, my next aircraft (HR-II) is not using  switches to carry heavy loads.   Instead, it will be using DC-rated  relays (with up to 70A DC rating for resistive loads).  These should be  adequate for most loads.  The relays are controlled with low-current  switches (with gold/silver contacts).

  

 Thanks,

 Vern



 	  Quote: 	
		  



href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com

href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com

href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com

href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/chref="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List

href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com





href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com

href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com

href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com

href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/chref="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List

href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com

	
 

   Release Date:  11/03/10 08:36:00

   [quote][b]

sprocket(at)vx-aviation.c
Guest

Posted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 10:51 am Post subject: Toggle Switch Failure (reprise)

Thanks for the information.  It seems that this is a viable alternative 

although I hate being able to shut down a power source in the event of a 

fire.  A pullable breaker would be a good answer to that.



Vern



--------------------------------------------------

From: "David E. Nelson" <david.nelson(at)pobox.com>

Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2010 11:05 AM

To: <aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com>

Subject: Re: Toggle Switch Failure (reprise)



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <david.nelson(at)pobox.com>

 Hi Vern,



 I was just thinking about this thread the other week while hooking up my 

 strobe

 power-supply.  The unit is a Nova XPAK-604 (IIRC) and I noticed that in 

 the

 supplied wiring diagram that they tied the supply lead to the power source 

 w/o

 any switches.  The unit's operation is then turned on/off by a control 

 signal

 via a small guage wire.



 I don't recall anybody else mentioning this so I'm bringing it up because 

 I

 think it may offer a viable alternative for others that are using this 

 unit.



 The install guide is here:



 http://www.strobesnmore.com/nova-x-pak-strobe-power-supplies.html



 Regards,

  /\/elson

 ~~  Lately my memory seems to be like a steel trap .... without any 

 spring.  ~~



 On Wed, 3 Nov 2010, Vern Little wrote:



> My (final) conclusion on toggle switch failures in my RV-9A.

>

> In a recent Transport Canada Aviation Safety Letter, there is an article 

> that is relevant to the long debate we had a few years ago about the 

> failure of toggle switches (specifically Carling

> brand) in the strobe, landing and taxi light circuits of our aircraft.

>

> The article is here: 

> http://www.tc.gc.ca/media/documents/ca-publications/tp185e_4_2010.pdf

>

> The summary is this:  Cessna has issued a mandatory service bulletin to 

> replace all subject switches used in the landing light as well as the 

> taxi light and rotating beacon circuits in the

> 100-, 200- and 300- series.  The FAA issued an SAIB to this effect.

>

> The root cause is that the switches used were not suitable to the 

> applications.  Surge currents are many times (8x) the nominal currents 

> for lighting loads, well outside the switch ratings.

> Also, the switches used did not have DC ratings.

>

> During the aeroelectric debate and Bob`s research of the Carling switch 

> failures, we found evidence of manufacturing problems, however, 

> overstressing the switches may be in fact the causal

> link in the failure chain.  I used inrush current limiters on my landing 

> light circuits which helps.  My strobe switches did not use the limiters 

> and failed just short of a smoke/fire

> incident.  These switches have no specific DC rating, although common use 

> is to follow the 115VAC rated current.

>

> Therefore, my next aircraft (HR-II) is not using switches to carry heavy 

> loads.   Instead, it will be using DC-rated relays (with up to 70A DC 

> rating for resistive loads).  These should be

> adequate for most loads.  The relays are controlled with low-current 

> switches (with gold/silver contacts).

>

> Thanks,

> Vern






	


 	  Quote: 	
		  

 Checked by AVG - www.avg.com

 08:36:00

tim2542(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 11:07 am Post subject: Toggle Switch Failure (reprise)

Just did this last week myself! If you note they still require 18AWG wire as as minimum for the control lead, which made me think it must have some current on it. I used a relay to avoid having both leads go all the way forward and then back. 

Tim Andres



Sent from my iPhone



On Nov 3, 2010, at 11:05 AM, "David E. Nelson" <david.nelson(at)pobox.com> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 

 Hi Vern,

 

 I was just thinking about this thread the other week while hooking up my strobe power-supply.  The unit is a Nova XPAK-604 (IIRC) and I noticed that in the supplied wiring diagram that they tied the supply lead to the power source w/o any switches.  The unit's operation is then turned on/off by a control signal via a small guage wire.

 

 I don't recall anybody else mentioning this so I'm bringing it up because I think it may offer a viable alternative for others that are using this unit.

 

 The install guide is here:

 

 http://www.strobesnmore.com/nova-x-pak-strobe-power-supplies.html

 

 Regards,

     /\/elson

 

 

 ~~  Lately my memory seems to be like a steel trap .... without any spring.  ~~

 

 On Wed, 3 Nov 2010, Vern Little wrote:

 

> My (final) conclusion on toggle switch failures in my RV-9A.

> In a recent Transport Canada Aviation Safety Letter, there is an article that is relevant to the long debate we had a few years ago about the failure of toggle switches (specifically Carling

> brand) in the strobe, landing and taxi light circuits of our aircraft.

> The article is here: http://www.tc.gc.ca/media/documents/ca-publications/tp185e_4_2010.pdf

> The summary is this:  Cessna has issued a mandatory service bulletin to replace all subject switches used in the landing light as well as the taxi light and rotating beacon circuits in the

> 100-, 200- and 300- series.  The FAA issued an SAIB to this effect.

> The root cause is that the switches used were not suitable to the applications.  Surge currents are many times (8x) the nominal currents for lighting loads, well outside the switch ratings. Also, the switches used did not have DC ratings.

> During the aeroelectric debate and Bob`s research of the Carling switch failures, we found evidence of manufacturing problems, however, overstressing the switches may be in fact the causal

> link in the failure chain.  I used inrush current limiters on my landing light circuits which helps.  My strobe switches did not use the limiters and failed just short of a smoke/fire

> incident.  These switches have no specific DC rating, although common use is to follow the 115VAC rated current.

> Therefore, my next aircraft (HR-II) is not using switches to carry heavy loads.   Instead, it will be using DC-rated relays (with up to 70A DC rating for resistive loads).  These should be

> adequate for most loads.  The relays are controlled with low-current switches (with gold/silver contacts).

> Thanks,

> Vern

tomcostanza

Joined: 19 Oct 2008
Posts: 49

Posted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 2:46 am Post subject: Re: Toggle Switch Failure (reprise)

Vern,



How did you mount the current limiters?  



-Tom

_________________
Clear Skies,
Tom Costanza
-- in year 17 of a 3 year project

sprocket(at)vx-aviation.c
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 6:41 am Post subject: Toggle Switch Failure (reprise)

In my case, I had a terminal block that handled all of the wing wiring 

connections.  I mounted them there using fast-on connections soldered to the 

device.  They can be anywhere in series with the lights.  Don't use them for 

the strobe supply!



They will affect the intensity of wig-wag lights, however.  Since they limit 

the inrush current it takes longer for the lamps to heat up to maximum 

brightness.  My fix was to open up the wig-wag flasher and replace the 

electrolytic capacitor with a larger value, slowing the flash rate down.



V



--------------------------------------------------

From: "tomcostanza" <Tom(at)CostanzaAndAssociates.com>

Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2010 3:46 AM

To: <aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com>

Subject: Re: Toggle Switch Failure (reprise)



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <Tom(at)CostanzaAndAssociates.com>



 Vern,



 How did you mount the current limiters?



 -Tom



 --------

 Clear Skies,

 Tom Costanza





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=318107#318107






	


 	  Quote: 	
		  

 Checked by AVG - www.avg.com

 08:36:00

s.hamer(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 8:52 am Post subject: Toggle Switch Failure (reprise)

Why not for the strobe supply?  Are you speaking of the fast-on's or the 

terminal block?  Just curious.



Steve



--------------------------------------------------

From: "Vern Little" <sprocket(at)vx-aviation.com>

Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2010 7:36 AM

To: <aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com>

Subject: Re: Re: Toggle Switch Failure (reprise)



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <sprocket(at)vx-aviation.com>



 In my case, I had a terminal block that handled all of the wing wiring 

 connections.  I mounted them there using fast-on connections soldered to 

 the device.  They can be anywhere in series with the lights.  Don't use 

 them for the strobe supply!

andrew.d.zachar(at)gmail.
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 9:25 am Post subject: Toggle Switch Failure (reprise)

 	  Quote: 	
		   My fix was to open up the wig-wag flasher and replace the electrolytic capacitor with a larger value, slowing the flash rate down.

  

 V



	


Vern,



I thought my flasher (from B&C) was a little fast. How difficult was it to open up? Can you give me an idea of what capacitor I'll find when I open it up and what type and spread of capacitors to try out to slow down the flashing? 

-- 

Andrew Zachar

andrew.d.zachar(at)gmail.com (andrew.d.zachar(at)gmail.com)

 

  [quote][b]

sprocket(at)vx-aviation.c
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 11:36 am Post subject: Toggle Switch Failure (reprise)

You should only find one capacitor.  It's a  metal can with a plastic case.  Try doubling the capacitance (in  microfarads).  It's not critical.

 You can just pry open the bottom to release the  tabs and slide the cover off.

  

 Vern

  



  From: Andrew Zachar (andrew.d.zachar(at)gmail.com) 

 Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2010 10:20 AM

 To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com (aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com)  

 Subject: Re: Re: Toggle Switch Failure  (reprise)

 



   	  Quote: 	
		   My fix was to open up the wig-wag flasher and replace    the electrolytic capacitor with a larger value, slowing the flash rate    down.



V



	


 



Vern,  



 I thought my flasher (from B&C) was a little fast. How difficult was it  to open up? Can you give me an idea of what capacitor I'll find when I open it  up and what type and spread of capacitors to try out to slow down the  flashing?

-- 

Andrew Zachar

andrew.d.zachar(at)gmail.com (andrew.d.zachar(at)gmail.com)



 	  Quote: 	
		  



href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com

href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com

href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com

href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/chref="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List

href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com

	
 

   Release Date:  11/04/10 08:42:00

   [quote][b]

sprocket(at)vx-aviation.c
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 12:21 pm Post subject: Toggle Switch Failure (reprise)

No, I was referring to the inrush current limiters.



V



--------------------------------------------------

From: "Steve Hamer" <s.hamer(at)verizon.net>

Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2010 9:49 AM

To: <aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com>

Subject: Re: Re: Toggle Switch Failure (reprise)



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <s.hamer(at)verizon.net>



 Why not for the strobe supply?  Are you speaking of the fast-on's or the

 terminal block?  Just curious.



 Steve



 --------------------------------------------------

 From: "Vern Little" <sprocket(at)vx-aviation.com>

 Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2010 7:36 AM

 To: <aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com>

 Subject: Re: Re: Toggle Switch Failure (reprise)



> 

> <sprocket(at)vx-aviation.com>

>

> In my case, I had a terminal block that handled all of the wing wiring

> connections.  I mounted them there using fast-on connections soldered to

> the device.  They can be anywhere in series with the lights.  Don't use

> them for the strobe supply!

>


	


 	  Quote: 	
		  

 Checked by AVG - www.avg.com

 08:42:00

dan(at)azshowersolutions.
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 12:58 pm Post subject: Toggle Switch Failure (reprise)

Another thought I had to tweek the flash rate would be to play with the RC time constant. Could try adding a larger resistor as well. Google it and you will get a good amount of info.

 Dan



 

   From: Andrew Zachar <andrew.d.zachar(at)gmail.com>

To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com

Sent: Thu, November 4, 2010 10:20:31 AM

Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Toggle Switch Failure (reprise)



   	  Quote: 	
		   My fix was to open up the wig-wag flasher and replace the electrolytic capacitor with a larger value, slowing the flash rate down.



V



	


 



Vern,  



 I thought my flasher (from B&C) was a little fast. How difficult was it to open up? Can you give me an idea of what capacitor I'll find when I open it up and what type and spread of capacitors to try out to slow down the flashing?

-- 

Andrew Zachar

andrew.d.zachar(at)gmail.com (andrew.d.zachar(at)gmail.com)



[quote]www.aerww.buildersbooks.com/" rel=nofollow target=_blank>www.buildersbooks.com===============

[b]

andrew.d.zachar(at)GMAIL.
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 1:23 pm Post subject: Toggle Switch Failure (reprise)

 	  Quote: 	
		   Another thought I had to tweek the flash rate would be to play with the RC

 time constant. Could try adding a larger resistor as well. Google it and you

 will get a good amount of info.

 Dan


	


I've spent a lot of time looking at 555 timer circuits about flashing.

The motivation to open the flasher up and start poking around came

from Vern's successful completion of that task.



When I can get around to it, I'll try to capture my experiment and let

everyone know how it goes.



-az



-- 

Andrew Zachar

andrew.d.zachar(at)gmail.com

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