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br549phil(at)mindspring.c
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 Posted: Sat Dec 31, 2005 5:38 pm Post subject: Slips |
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The most recent rudder failure I'm aware of was an AA A300 which experienced rapid and repeated (pilot induced)full rudder reversals after encountering the wake vortex of a B747 departing JFK. (Cleared for takeoff one minute and thirty seconds after the 747 rather than the normal two minute separation) It was a composite rudder which had been found to have a defect during manufacture and had been repaired on the line by Airbus.(a fact which they tried to conceal).
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nico(at)cybersuperstore.c
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| Posted: Sat Dec 31, 2005 7:10 pm Post subject: Slips |
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That explains it. It worried me that, even with sudden full rudder
deflections, that the tail would come off. If they messed with the damn
thing, it stands to reason that it would fail at some point.
Many years ago as a small tyke, I once went up to the fence at an air force
base, not more than perhaps 100 or so yards from the threshold of the runway
on which C130's landed. After passing only a couple of hundred feet
overhead, the air would make noises like the cracking of a whip, just much
louder. It was the eeriest thing that I have ever experienced, messing with
one's senses, not able to see anything but hearing these "snaps" - very
loud - almost like gunfire as the disturbed air regroups.
I have always been very aware of wake vortices because of that, watching
crosswinds before takeoff to head upwind from possible vortices. Then I
watch airliners take off one after the other straight ahead and I wonder.
Especially at airports like John Wayne in Orange County, CA, where jets
climb out very steeply before leveling off. Noise restrictions, perhaps?
Surely steep take-offs like that would create larger than normal vortices?
Even if there is a two-minute separation, if there isn't a cross-wind, the
turbulent air would hang around, but every jet climbs into the same box time
after time.
Just some observations.
Nico
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BillLeff1(at)aol.com
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| Posted: Sun Jan 01, 2006 9:54 am Post subject: Slips |
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I was an instructor at TWA (then owned by American) when American Flight
587. To keep this short, it was determined that after encountering turbulence
from a 747 in front of it, the flying pilot over controlled the A300 aircraft
in the yaw axis.
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bowing74(at)earthlink.net
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| Posted: Sun Jan 01, 2006 4:05 pm Post subject: Slips |
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Rudder deflection on the B747 is relative to speed. At higher speed you
can't get full deflection.
bilbo
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BillLeff1(at)aol.com
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| Posted: Sun Jan 01, 2006 5:03 pm Post subject: Slips |
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You are right, That is true of most Transport aircraft. I was an MD-80
instructor and it also had a rudder limiter. However at lower speeds the rudder
limiter allows full travel. On the A300 the problem is that it has very light
rudder pressures for full defection (33 lbs) due to the fly by wire flight
control system. It is very easy to over control.
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bowing74(at)earthlink.net
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| Posted: Sun Jan 01, 2006 6:34 pm Post subject: Slips |
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Yes, I agree. Keep your feet on the floor.
bilbo
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nico(at)cybersuperstore.c
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| Posted: Sun Jan 01, 2006 11:46 pm Post subject: Slips |
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I guess there is just so much you can throw overboard before you change a
plane into a soon to be pile of crumpled aluminum.
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br549phil(at)mindspring.c
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| Posted: Mon Jan 02, 2006 8:19 am Post subject: Slips |
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In fact, my first trip back to MD80 training after the airbus we had quite
an argument over rudder use.
Prior to the entrail restrictions behind 757s, at DFW and elsewhere, before
the guy ahead of you had completed his rotaion they would clear you for
takeoff which put you right into the rather nasty vortecies generated by
the 757. The width of the vortex was such that it completely blanked out
the MD80 ailerons. So right after T.O. (happened twice to me) you are in an
uncommanded ninety degree bank with full opposite aileron and still
rolling. Your only effective controll is the rudder.
My feeling was that Boeing and the attorneys were going to cause more
trouble by discouraging it's use than by teaching it's proper use.
Phil
| Quote: | [Original Message]
From: <BillLeff1(at)aol.com>
To: <commander-list(at)matronics.com>
Date: 1/1/2006 12:54:55 PM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Slips
I was an instructor at TWA (then owned by American) when American Flight
587. To keep this short, it was determined that after encountering
turbulence |
| Quote: | from a 747 in front of it, the flying pilot over controlled the A300
aircraft |
| Quote: | in the yaw axis.
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