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shericom(at)rogers.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 28, 2006 12:40 pm Post subject: Grounding of fuel tanks

Some weeks ago I saw discussions on grounding of the filler neck on the fiberglass fuel tanks (M4) to the rear spar with copper braid. My question is what size brade is required and how is it connected to the spar? I beleave it was soldered to the tank neck. Thanks in advance, Don



Don Stevenson, Caledon, Ontario, Canada

M4/1200-912s Speedster

shericom(at)rogers.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 28, 2006 12:40 pm Post subject: Grounding of fuel tanks

Some weeks ago I saw discussions on grounding of the filler neck on the fiberglass fuel tanks (M4) to the rear spar with copper braid. My question is what size brade is required and how is it connected to the spar? I beleave it was soldered to the tank neck. Thanks in advance, Don



Don Stevenson, Caledon, Ontario, Canada

M4/1200-912s Speedster

smokey_bear_40220(at)yaho
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 28, 2006 1:53 pm Post subject: Grounding of fuel tanks

My understanding is that a small wire will do, since

it is static electricity.  It is also a good idea to

include a resistor in line to the spar so that the

charge bleeds off more slowly and avoids the spark.



Don't know what the others have used.  I would guess

equivelent to a #16 wire is plenty with a little 1/2

amp 1000 ohm resister?  That may be overkill.



You need good electrical contact at both ends, but

don't solder to the AL spar.  If there is a brace

nearby that is riveted to the spar, I'd drill a #30

into that and use a pop rivet to attach the wire with

a crimpon end.  Run the wire somewhere where it is

supported and not going to break off with time.



Where are our electrical experts on this?



Kurt S.  S-5/NSI turbo



--- Donald STEVENSON <shericom(at)rogers.com> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Some weeks ago I saw discussions on grounding of the

 filler neck on the fiberglass fuel tanks (M4) to the

 rear spar with copper braid. My question is what

 size brade is required and how is it connected to

 the spar? I beleave it was soldered to the tank

 neck. Thanks in advance, Don

 

 Don Stevenson, Caledon, Ontario, Canada

 M4/1200-912s Speedster


	


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pwmac(at)sisna.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 28, 2006 2:24 pm Post subject: Grounding of fuel tanks

Electrically speaking a small wire will do the job. Hardly any 

current is involved just a voltage potential. I used 16 ga because it 

was handy. 22 ga would be ok. It is not like the wire braid between 

your engine and the battery which carries hundreds of amps. The trick 

is to keep the voltage the same between the filler neck and the 

airframe. I connected mine to the spar. Then when fueling I use the 

tie down attachment for the ground to earth.

Regards, Paul



At 02:39 PM 4/28/2006, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



Some weeks ago I saw discussions on grounding of the filler neck on 

the fiberglass fuel tanks (M4) to the rear spar with copper braid. 

My question is what size brade is required and how is it connected 

to the spar? I beleave it was soldered to the tank neck. Thanks in advance, Don



Don Stevenson, Caledon, Ontario, Canada

M4/1200-912s Speedster

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Fri Apr 28, 2006 3:42 pm Post subject: Grounding of fuel tanks

That might have been me, Don. I used the Aircraft Spruce 1/4" tin 

plated copper braid p/n 863, p.419. I attached it to the spar with a 

ring terminal under a washer, then the spar attaching nut. I soldered 

the braid to the filler neck, being careful to put it low enough to 

clear the filler cap. I used a 200-watt soldering iron to do the job.



Lynn

On Friday, April 28, 2006, at 04:39  PM, Donald STEVENSON wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <shericom(at)rogers.com>



 Some weeks ago I saw discussions on grounding of the filler neck on 

 the fiberglass fuel tanks (M4) to the rear spar with copper braid. My 

 question is what size brade is required and how is it connected to the 

 spar? I beleave it was soldered to the tank neck. Thanks in advance, 

 Don



 Don Stevenson, Caledon, Ontario, Canada

 M4/1200-912s Speedster

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

bnn(at)nethere.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 28, 2006 8:16 pm Post subject: Grounding of fuel tanks

At 01:39 PM 4/28/2006, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  Some weeks ago I saw discussions on grounding of the filler neck on the 

fiberglass fuel tanks (M4) to the rear spar with copper braid. My question 

is what size brade is required and how is it connected to the spar? I 

beleave it was soldered to the tank neck. Thanks in advance,


	


Somewhat off topic. I didn't have the neck grounded, but recognized the 

requirement. I now have a couple of electrical clamps with 15' of 14ga test 

lead wire between them. On each clamp I've attached about a foot of light 

chain. One chain goes in the tank during fill with the clamp on the filler 

neck. The other clamp goes on the axle with the chain on the ground. I pour 

a little water on the ground chain for additional contact. I'm hoping this 

will get any static buildup on the gasoline surface to ground.



If I were going to go to the trouble of grounding the filler neck, I'd 

attach a conductive chain from the filler neck long enough to reach the 

bottom of the tank.

Guy Buchanan

K-IV 1200 / 582 / 99.9% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.

Michel

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 966
Location: Norway

Posted: Fri Apr 28, 2006 10:58 pm Post subject: Grounding of fuel tanks

On Apr 28, 2006, at 11:50 PM, kurt schrader wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Where are our electrical experts on this?


	


I am certainly not an expert but I can tell what I did to ground my ham 

radio in my sailboat.



Don, I used a tape that is used to ground computer racks. I don't know 

how easy it is to find them, I got mine from my employer who made 

high-end maritime simulator with big huge racks full of electronic. The 

tape is about half an inch wide and has adhesive on one side. It is 

silver looking but it, I believed platted copper. I used it to go from 

my antenna tuner, down into the bildges. Twelve years later, it still 

works just fine, the adhesive is holding strong and my ham antenna 

works well. I even had QSO with the US and Canada with as little as 5 

Watts output.



Cheers,

Michel

_________________
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

smokey_bear_40220(at)yaho
Guest

Posted: Sat Apr 29, 2006 3:57 am Post subject: Grounding of fuel tanks

Good one Michel,



Not only is the tape more easily hidden under fabric,

but it mounts firmly too.  Can even be used for making

cheap antennas inside fabric airplanes where they

dont add drag.



Kurt S.



--- Michel Verheughe <michel(at)online.no> wrote:



 

 	  Quote: 	
		   On Apr 28, 2006, at 11:50 PM, kurt schrader wrote:

 > Where are our electrical experts on this?

 

 I am certainly not an expert but I can tell what I

 did to ground my ham radio in my sailboat.

 

 Don, I used a tape that is used to ground computer

 racks. I don't know 

 how easy it is to find them,> 

 Cheers,

 Michel


	


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smokey_bear_40220(at)yaho
Guest

Posted: Sat Apr 29, 2006 4:33 am Post subject: Grounding of fuel tanks

Hi Guy,



I was once working on my old RV (Rec Vehicle) and

happened to have the power supply plugged in.  While

rolling under the vehicle I grabbed the step and got a

buzz.  I took my volt meter and stuck one end in the

dirt gap between the concrete slabs and put the other

end on the RV.  40 volts AC!  It was enough to go thru

me to the concrete.  (Bad RV wiring somewhere)



Remembering that fuel trucks use chains, other trucks

use grounding straps, and planes have static wicks, I

think that they do work.



I bet your system is working too Guy.



The longest spark I saw from an aircraft, other than

lightening, was from a hovering helo.  It was about 3

feet long and struck a man on the ground.  Got his

attention and mine!  I saw it from 200 yards away!



Kurt S.



--- Guy Buchanan <bnn(at)nethere.com> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Somewhat off topic. I didn't have the neck grounded,

 but recognized the 

 requirement. I now have a couple of electrical

 clamps with 15' of 14ga test 

 lead wire between them. On each clamp I've attached

 about a foot of light 

 chain. One chain goes in the tank during fill with

 the clamp on the filler 

 neck. The other clamp goes on the axle with the

 chain on the ground. I pour 

 a little water on the ground chain for additional

 contact. I'm hoping this 

 will get any static buildup on the gasoline surface

 to ground.

 

 If I were going to go to the trouble of grounding

 the filler neck, I'd 

 attach a conductive chain from the filler neck long

 enough to reach the 

 bottom of the tank.



 Guy Buchanan

 K-IV 1200 / 582 / 99.9% done, thanks mostly to Bob

 Ducar.


	


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pwmac(at)sisna.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Apr 29, 2006 7:22 am Post subject: Grounding of fuel tanks

Kurt, good point  Always ground the plane before starting the fueling 

process. A built up charge may be present.  One thing to remember is 

that the first line of defense from static discharge during fueling 

is that the fuel nozzle always be in contact with the tank inlet 

during fueling. This practice is the reason that the planes that do 

not have the filler neck grounded to the airframe have not had an 

incident. This likewise applies to funnels whether conductive or not. 

Never let the gasoline squirt into a vessel without contact between 

the vessel and the source of the fuel. Example: do not pour fuel into 

a funnel unless the Jerry can spout is in contact with the funnel.

Not sure the chain from the filler neck to bottom of the tank has 

merit. This is because the static charge buildup is the result of the 

liquid flowing thru the vapor above the liquid surface. Thus if there 

is a ground path from the source (say a fill nozzle) to the flowing 

stream there will not be arcing.

Regards, Paul

=====================

At 06:31 AM 4/29/2006, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

Hi Guy,

I was once working on my old RV (Rec Vehicle) and

happened to have the power supply plugged in.  While

rolling under the vehicle I grabbed the step and got a

buzz.  I took my volt meter and stuck one end in the

dirt gap between the concrete slabs and put the other

end on the RV.  40 volts AC!  It was enough to go thru

me to the concrete.  (Bad RV wiring somewhere)

Remembering that fuel trucks use chains, other trucks

use grounding straps, and planes have static wicks, I

think that they do work.

I bet your system is working too Guy.

The longest spark I saw from an aircraft, other than

lightening, was from a hovering helo.  It was about 3

feet long and struck a man on the ground.  Got his

attention and mine!  I saw it from 200 yards away!

Kurt S.

--- Guy Buchanan <bnn(at)nethere.com> wrote:

 > Somewhat off topic. I didn't have the neck grounded,

 > but recognized the

 > requirement. I now have a couple of electrical

 > clamps with 15' of 14ga test

 > lead wire between them. On each clamp I've attached

 > about a foot of light

 > chain. One chain goes in the tank during fill with

 > the clamp on the filler

 > neck. The other clamp goes on the axle with the

 > chain on the ground. I pour

 > a little water on the ground chain for additional

 > contact. I'm hoping this

 > will get any static buildup on the gasoline surface

 > to ground.

 >

 > If I were going to go to the trouble of grounding

 > the filler neck, I'd

 > attach a conductive chain from the filler neck long

 > enough to reach the

 > bottom of the tank.

 >

 > Guy Buchanan

 > K-IV 1200 / 582 / 99.9% done, thanks mostly to Bob

 > Ducar.

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smokey_bear_40220(at)yaho
Guest

Posted: Sat Apr 29, 2006 3:41 pm Post subject: Grounding of fuel tanks

Glad you are keeping us straight Paul.



Without everything grounded, it probably is a good

idea to touch the can or hose to the unopened cap

first, then open the cap to fuel.



But I am counting on good looks and luck right now

myself.  Too many things to make right and not enough

time to do them all, darn.   Glad others learn this

stuff here before they build too far.  I got here to

late to run the filler neck wire under the fabric. 

Got to do make shift corrections until to-dos and

time come together.



Kurt S.



--- PWilson <pwmac(at)sisna.com> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Kurt, good point  Always ground the plane before

 starting the fueling 

 process. A built up charge may be present.  One

 thing to remember is 

 that the first line of defense from static discharge

 during fueling 

 is that the fuel nozzle always be in contact with

 the tank inlet 

 during fueling. This practice is the reason that the

 planes that do 

 not have the filler neck grounded to the airframe

 have not had an 

 incident. This likewise applies to funnels whether

 conductive or not. 

 Never let the gasoline squirt into a vessel without

 contact between 

 the vessel and the source of the fuel. Example: do

 not pour fuel into 

 a funnel unless the Jerry can spout is in contact

 with the funnel.

 Not sure the chain from the filler neck to bottom of

 the tank has 

 merit. This is because the static charge buildup is

 the result of the 

 liquid flowing thru the vapor above the liquid

 surface. Thus if there 

 is a ground path from the source (say a fill nozzle)

 to the flowing 

 stream there will not be arcing.

 Regards, Paul


	


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bnn(at)nethere.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Apr 29, 2006 10:42 pm Post subject: Grounding of fuel tanks

At 05:31 AM 4/29/2006, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  The longest spark I saw from an aircraft, other than

lightening, was from a hovering helo.  It was about 3

feet long and struck a man on the ground.  Got his

attention and mine!  I saw it from 200 yards away!


	


Before Navy helicopters land on ship, they are first discharged with an 8' 

wand connected via a huge cable to the ship. I've seen it.

Guy

janderson412(at)hotmail.c
Guest

Posted: Sat Apr 29, 2006 11:21 pm Post subject: Grounding of fuel tanks

Heli logging in  dry weather just just on dusk, never seen 3ft but some 

beauties all the same...those spinning blades certainly builsd up a 

charge...can't help but smile looking down...





From:  Guy Buchanan <bnn(at)nethere.com>

Reply-To:  kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

To:  kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

Subject:  Re: Grounding of fuel tanks

Date:  Sat, 29 Apr 2006 23:33:17 -0700




At 05:31 AM 4/29/2006, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  The longest spark I saw from an aircraft, other than

lightening, was from a hovering helo.  It was about 3

feet long and struck a man on the ground.  Got his

attention and mine!  I saw it from 200 yards away!


	


Before Navy helicopters land on ship, they are first discharged with an 8'

wand connected via a huge cable to the ship. I've seen it.

Guy

_________________________________________________________________

Need more speed? Get Xtra Broadband (at) 

http://jetstream.xtra.co.nz/chm/0,,202853-1000,00.html

rexjan(at)bigpond.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Apr 30, 2006 12:20 am Post subject: Grounding of fuel tanks

As an electronics guy I will verify what Kurt says. I think the =

advantage of using braid over wire is only because the wire might break =

and braid is far less vulnerable so it's your choice. The resistor in =

the braid or wire is essential. The reason being that if the filler neck =

is hard earthed [ ie:- no resistor ] then if you have a static charge =

built up on the fuel container or perhaps you holding it then you get a =

zap and bang she could go. You could earth the container as well as the =

filler neck and you would be OK but if you use a resistor then any =

difference in voltage potential will promptly drain away rather than arc =

over. So this way you are pretty safe either way. ie:- earthing the can =

or not. Earthing the can as well as the neck would be the best preferece =

though but don't make the connection next to fumes. ie:- on the can neck =

with cap open.

  Somebody did point this out basically before about the resistor. One =

small point though is the resistor should really be a bit higher in =

value than 1,000 ohms.  At that you may still  get a spark. I would =

suggest say 1/2 megohm [ 500,000 ohms ] It will still drain the voltage =

off virtually instantly but with no zap. Also I think kurt meant to =

quote watts rating for the resistor not amps. Virtually any wattage =

would be enough but I'd suggest 1 watt for something a bit more =

physically robust. In fact a good idea might be 2 only 1 megohm ones =

side by side. What we call connected in parallel. This gives 1/2 megohm =

that we were originally talking about but a built in safety factor =

should one fail either due to mechanical breakage or go electrically =

open circuit. In such a case we would be left with 1 megohm rather than =

1/2 megohm but it will still do the job just fine.

                                                          Rex Shaw

                                                             Australia.

smokey_bear_40220(at)yaho
Guest

Posted: Sun Apr 30, 2006 5:23 am Post subject: Grounding of fuel tanks

Yes Guy,

I flew Marine CH-53s.  72 foot rotar span and a big

static machine.  I think it was our primary weapon. 

This occurance happened on the ground when a grunt

tried to show a helo team how to hook up without a

wand and learned a positive (or was it negative?)

lesson.  I think he went about 20 feet including the

roll.  Off fairway.....  Unusuall for Marines - no

sand trap.

Kurt S.

Do not archive

--- Guy Buchanan <bnn(at)nethere.com> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   At 05:31 AM 4/29/2006, you wrote:

 >The longest spark I saw from an aircraft, other

 than

 >lightening, was from a hovering helo.  It was about

 3

 >feet long and struck a man on the ground.  Got his

 >attention and mine!  I saw it from 200 yards away!

 Before Navy helicopters land on ship, they are first

 discharged with an 8' 

 wand connected via a huge cable to the ship. I've

 seen it.

 Guy

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smokey_bear_40220(at)yaho
Guest

Posted: Sun Apr 30, 2006 5:25 am Post subject: Grounding of fuel tanks

John,



Which type helo?



Kurt S.



do not archive



--- John Anderson <janderson412(at)hotmail.com> wrote:

 

 	  Quote: 	
		   Heli logging in  dry weather just just on dusk,

 never seen 3ft but some 

 beauties all the same...those spinning blades

 certainly builsd up a 

 charge...can't help but smile looking down...


	


__________________________________________________

Do You Yahoo!?

Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 

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smokey_bear_40220(at)yaho
Guest

Posted: Sun Apr 30, 2006 5:35 am Post subject: Grounding of fuel tanks

Thanks Rex,



That is designing for longevity.



Ha ha... Yes watts! I am getting too old to think

about the "hard" stuff.    Mega volts of static

should have that greater resistance too.



As a retrofit, I might try a metalic paint (design)

behind the filler neck and ground it to somewhere. 

Have to test electrically first....  Might provide the

conductivity and resistance too.  It will need good

contact points though.  Just an idea.  Thinking about

my fuel stains and 2 birds....



Kurt S.



--- Rex Shaw <rexjan(at)bigpond.com> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   As an electronics guy I will verify what Kurt says.

 I think the =

 advantage of using braid over wire is only because

 the wire might break =

 and braid is far less vulnerable so it's your

 choice. The resistor in =

 the braid or wire is essential. The reason being

 that if the filler neck =

 is hard earthed [ ie:- no resistor ] then if you

 have a static charge =

 built up on the fuel container or perhaps you

 holding it then you get a =

 zap and bang she could go. You could earth the

 container as well as the =

 filler neck and you would be OK but if you use a

 resistor then any =

 difference in voltage potential will promptly drain

 away rather than arc =

 over. So this way you are pretty safe either way.

 ie:- earthing the can =

 or not. Earthing the can as well as the neck would

 be the best preferece =

 though but don't make the connection next to fumes.

 ie:- on the can neck =

 with cap open.

   Somebody did point this out basically before about

 the resistor. One =

 small point though is the resistor should really be

 a bit higher in =

 value than 1,000 ohms.  At that you may still  get a

 spark. I would =

 suggest say 1/2 megohm [ 500,000 ohms ] It will

 still drain the voltage =

 off virtually instantly but with no zap. Also I

 think kurt meant to =

 quote watts rating for the resistor not amps.

 Virtually any wattage =

 would be enough but I'd suggest 1 watt for something

 a bit more =

 physically robust. In fact a good idea might be 2

 only 1 megohm ones =

 side by side. What we call connected in parallel.

 This gives 1/2 megohm =

 that we were originally talking about but a built in

 safety factor =

 should one fail either due to mechanical breakage or

 go electrically =

 open circuit. In such a case we would be left with 1

 megohm rather than =

 1/2 megohm but it will still do the job just fine.

                                                     

      Rex Shaw

                                                     

         Australia.


	


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dan(at)azshowersolutions.
Guest

Posted: Sun Apr 30, 2006 7:19 am Post subject: Grounding of fuel tanks

I recently got checked out in an LSA (Allegro 2000) and thought it was interesting to see grounding wire dragging the ground coming off of the main gear next to the wheels. It was the first time I have seen this having flown only C-172 & 152s. Is this a common practice and would it benefit doing the same on the Kitfoxes? 

  Dan,

  Mesa

  www.azshowersolutions.com/Kitfox1.html 



Rex Shaw <rexjan(at)bigpond.com> wrote:

  



As an electronics guy I will verify what Kurt says. I think the =

advantage of using braid over wire is only because the wire might break =

and braid is far less vulnerable so it's your choice. The resistor in =

the braid or wire is essential. The reason being that if the filler neck =

is hard earthed [ ie:- no resistor ] then if you have a static charge =

built up on the fuel container or perhaps you holding it then you get a =

zap and bang she could go. You could earth the container as well as the =

filler neck and you would be OK but if you use a resistor then any =

difference in voltage potential will promptly drain away rather than arc =

over. So this way you are pretty safe either way. ie:- earthing the can =

or not. Earthing the can as well as the neck would be the best preferece =

though but don't make the connection next to fumes. ie:- on the can neck =

with cap open.

Somebody did point this out basically before about the resistor. One =

small point though is the resistor should really be a bit higher in =

value than 1,000 ohms. At that you may still get a spark. I would =

suggest say 1/2 megohm [ 500,000 ohms ] It will still drain the voltage =

off virtually instantly but with no zap. Also I think kurt meant to =

quote watts rating for the resistor not amps. Virtually any wattage =

would be enough but I'd suggest 1 watt for something a bit more =

physically robust. In fact a good idea might be 2 only 1 megohm ones =

side by side. What we call connected in parallel. This gives 1/2 megohm =

that we were originally talking about but a built in safety factor =

should one fail either due to mechanical breakage or go electrically =

open circuit. In such a case we would be left with 1 megohm rather than =

1/2 megohm but it will still do the job just fine.

Rex Shaw

Australia.

smokey_bear_40220(at)yaho
Guest

Posted: Sun Apr 30, 2006 11:27 am Post subject: Grounding of fuel tanks

Hi Dan,



I think this was more common practice years ago, but

not so much now.  I had forgotten all about them on

planes, but you are right.  I do remember seeing them

on planes small and large.



I dont see any harm in it if the wire is kept far

enough from the wheel that it doesnt get trapped

underneath and torn of.  This is not a primary ground,

but should be a good, simple backup.



kurt S.



--- Dan Billingsley <dan(at)azshowersolutions.com> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   I recently got checked out in an LSA (Allegro 2000)

 and thought it was interesting to see grounding wire

 dragging the ground coming off of the main gear next

 to the wheels. It was the first time I have seen

 this having flown only C-172 & 152s. Is this a

 common practice and would it benefit doing the same

 on the Kitfoxes? 

   Dan,

   Mesa

   www.azshowersolutions.com/Kitfox1.html 


	


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janderson412(at)hotmail.c
Guest

Posted: Sun Apr 30, 2006 12:03 pm Post subject: Grounding of fuel tanks

Bell205 & 212 Kurt....Big blades ...smile..





From:  kurt schrader <smokey_bear_40220(at)yahoo.com>

Reply-To:  kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

To:  kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

Subject:  Re: Grounding of fuel tanks

Date:  Sun, 30 Apr 2006 06:25:14 -0700 (PDT)


<smokey_bear_40220(at)yahoo.com>



John,



Which type helo?



Kurt S.



do not archive



--- John Anderson <janderson412(at)hotmail.com> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  Heli logging in  dry weather just just on dusk,

never seen 3ft but some

beauties all the same...those spinning blades

certainly builsd up a

charge...can't help but smile looking down...


	


__________________________________________________

Do You Yahoo!?

Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around

http://mail.yahoo.com





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