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richard.goode(at)russiana
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 Posted: Fri Nov 26, 2010 7:36 am Post subject: Romania |
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I have just returned from Romania, visiting Aerostar, who have manufactured all Yak-52, and Motorstar, who manufacture /overhaul the M14P engine. Some issues that could be of interest:
Obviously production of Yak-52 has slowed right down, but they have just delivered ten new Yak-52 to Vietnam – price justover US $400,000 each.
In terms of total numbers of Yak-52 in the world their estimates are as follows:
<![if !supportLists]>Ø <![endif]>USA 322.
<![if !supportLists]>Ø <![endif]>UK 105.
<![if !supportLists]>Ø <![endif]>Germany 55.
<![if !supportLists]>Ø <![endif]>Spain 20.
<![if !supportLists]>Ø <![endif]>Italy 15.
<![if !supportLists]>Ø <![endif]>France 15.
<![if !supportLists]>Ø <![endif]>Sweden 5.
<![if !supportLists]>Ø <![endif]>Holland / Begium 6.
<![if !supportLists]>Ø <![endif]>Australia / New Zealand 25.
<![if !supportLists]>Ø <![endif]>South Africa 15.
<![if !supportLists]>Ø <![endif]>Others circa 25.
Total 608
In addition military operators are as follows:
<![if !supportLists]>Ø <![endif]>Romania 18.
<![if !supportLists]>Ø <![endif]>Hungary 11.
<![if !supportLists]>Ø <![endif]>Vietnam 31.
<![if !supportLists]>Ø <![endif]>In addition there are other military operators in Ukraine; Georgia; Uzbekistan and Kazakhstan etc.
Russia:
<![if !supportLists]>Ø <![endif]>They estimate that there are about 350 flyable in Russia, and a similar number existing but not flyable.
<![if !supportLists]>Ø <![endif]>Total production is 1,815 to date.
<![if !supportLists]>Ø <![endif]>Of these the first 60 were flush-riveted.
For military users, Aerostar still offers a military style TOTAL overhaul – that is a strip down to every last component and then built to a new aircraft. Current price for this is a bit over US $200,000. (I saw two Romanian Air Force Yak-52s undergoing this process).
I had thought that the major airframe strengthening Bulletins (59/60/107) on Yak-52 were issued because of cracks being seen in aircraft, rather than actual failures, but it is worth noting that there were actually two fatal accidents of Yak-52 involving total airframe failure (actually the centre section between the wings), which led to the introduction of 59 and 60 Bulletins. So if your 52 does not have 59 and 60 - fly gently!
Motorstar has just delivered five engines to the Chinese, to put into their new version of the CJ6. It is interesting that they have gone to Romania for these engines – I had assumed that the Chinese had all the production that they needed. Also I have seen in these listings, people referring to a 400hp version of the Chinese engine – does such a thing exist? Have many been made?
Motorstar continue to make a few new engines, as well as overhaul old ones. It would seem that they have good supplies of most components but it is feared that there are likely to be shortages in the long-term – for example exhaust valves. My personal feeling is that no new parts are being made in Russia and current stocks are simply being eroded.
Richard Goode Aerobatics
Rhodds Farm
Lyonshall
Herefordshire
HR5 3LW
United Kingdom
Tel: +44 (0) 1544 340120
Fax: +44 (0) 1544 340129
www.russianaeros.com
[quote][b]
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byronmfox(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Fri Nov 26, 2010 8:01 am Post subject: Romania |
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Informative report, Richard. Thanks, Blitz
Sent from my iPhone
On Nov 26, 2010, at 7:33 AM, "Richard Goode" <richard.goode(at)russianaeros.com (richard.goode(at)russianaeros.com)> wrote:
[quote]
I have just returned from Romania, visiting Aerostar, who have manufactured all Yak-52, and Motorstar, who manufacture /overhaul the M14P engine. Some issues that could be of interest:
Obviously production of Yak-52 has slowed right down, but they have just delivered ten new Yak-52 to Vietnam – price justover US $400,000 each.
In terms of total numbers of Yak-52 in the world their estimates are as follows:
Ø USA 322.
Ø UK 105.
Ø Germany 55.
Ø Spain 20.
Ø Italy 15.
Ø France 15.
Ø Sweden 5.
Ø Holland / Begium 6.
Ø Australia / New Zealand 25.
Ø South Africa 15.
Ø Others circa 25.
Total 608
In addition military operators are as follows:
Ø Romania 18.
Ø Hungary 11.
Ø Vietnam 31.
Ø In addition there are other military operators in Ukraine; Georgia; Uzbekistan and Kazakhstan etc.
Russia:
Ø They estimate that there are about 350 flyable in Russia, and a similar number existing but not flyable.
Ø Total production is 1,815 to date.
Ø Of these the first 60 were flush-riveted.
For military users, Aerostar still offers a military style TOTAL overhaul – that is a strip down to every last component and then built to a new aircraft. Current price for this is a bit over US $200,000. (I saw two Romanian Air Force Yak-52s undergoing this process).
I had thought that the major airframe strengthening Bulletins (59/60/107) on Yak-52 were issued because of cracks being seen in aircraft, rather than actual failures, but it is worth noting that there were actually two fatal accidents of Yak-52 involving total airframe failure (actually the centre section between the wings), which led to the introduction of 59 and 60 Bulletins. So if your 52 does not have 59 and 60 - fly gently!
Motorstar has just delivered five engines to the Chinese, to put into their new version of the CJ6. It is interesting that they have gone to Romania for these engines – I had assumed that the Chinese had all the production that they needed. Also I have seen in these listings, people referring to a 400hp version of the Chinese engine – does such a thing exist? Have many been made?
Motorstar continue to make a few new engines, as well as overhaul old ones. It would seem that they have good supplies of most components but it is feared that there are likely to be shortages in the long-term – for example exhaust valves. My personal feeling is that no new parts are being made in Russia and current stocks are simply being eroded.
Richard Goode Aerobatics
Rhodds Farm
Lyonshall
Herefordshire
HR5 3LW
United Kingdom
Tel: +44 (0) 1544 340120
Fax: +44 (0) 1544 340129
www.russianaeros.com
[b]
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byronmfox(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Fri Nov 26, 2010 8:08 am Post subject: Romania |
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Richard, would you suppose the 332 Yak 52s reported to be in the US would also include Canada?
Sent from my iPhone
On Nov 26, 2010, at 7:33 AM, "Richard Goode" <richard.goode(at)russianaeros.com (richard.goode(at)russianaeros.com)> wrote:
[quote]
I have just returned from Romania, visiting Aerostar, who have manufactured all Yak-52, and Motorstar, who manufacture /overhaul the M14P engine. Some issues that could be of interest:
Obviously production of Yak-52 has slowed right down, but they have just delivered ten new Yak-52 to Vietnam – price justover US $400,000 each.
In terms of total numbers of Yak-52 in the world their estimates are as follows:
Ø USA 322.
Ø UK 105.
Ø Germany 55.
Ø Spain 20.
Ø Italy 15.
Ø France 15.
Ø Sweden 5.
Ø Holland / Begium 6.
Ø Australia / New Zealand 25.
Ø South Africa 15.
Ø Others circa 25.
Total 608
In addition military operators are as follows:
Ø Romania 18.
Ø Hungary 11.
Ø Vietnam 31.
Ø In addition there are other military operators in Ukraine; Georgia; Uzbekistan and Kazakhstan etc.
Russia:
Ø They estimate that there are about 350 flyable in Russia, and a similar number existing but not flyable.
Ø Total production is 1,815 to date.
Ø Of these the first 60 were flush-riveted.
For military users, Aerostar still offers a military style TOTAL overhaul – that is a strip down to every last component and then built to a new aircraft. Current price for this is a bit over US $200,000. (I saw two Romanian Air Force Yak-52s undergoing this process).
I had thought that the major airframe strengthening Bulletins (59/60/107) on Yak-52 were issued because of cracks being seen in aircraft, rather than actual failures, but it is worth noting that there were actually two fatal accidents of Yak-52 involving total airframe failure (actually the centre section between the wings), which led to the introduction of 59 and 60 Bulletins. So if your 52 does not have 59 and 60 - fly gently!
Motorstar has just delivered five engines to the Chinese, to put into their new version of the CJ6. It is interesting that they have gone to Romania for these engines – I had assumed that the Chinese had all the production that they needed. Also I have seen in these listings, people referring to a 400hp version of the Chinese engine – does such a thing exist? Have many been made?
Motorstar continue to make a few new engines, as well as overhaul old ones. It would seem that they have good supplies of most components but it is feared that there are likely to be shortages in the long-term – for example exhaust valves. My personal feeling is that no new parts are being made in Russia and current stocks are simply being eroded.
Richard Goode Aerobatics
Rhodds Farm
Lyonshall
Herefordshire
HR5 3LW
United Kingdom
Tel: +44 (0) 1544 340120
Fax: +44 (0) 1544 340129
www.russianaeros.com
[b]
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yakplt(at)yahoo.com
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| Posted: Sat Nov 27, 2010 5:04 pm Post subject: Romania |
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Richard.
I am curious why Vietnam would pay $400,000 for a new YAK-52, when used ones in this country are selling for 1/10th of that amount. What makes a new YAK-52 worth 10 times more than a used one?
I'm sorry, but 400 grand for a YAK-52 is a ridiculous price. I love YAKS, and respect the name and product just as much as the next person, but this is over the top.
Or ... .if I am wrong .... (which I have been more than once by the way), then present YAK-52 owners REALLY need to re-consider the asking price for their aircraft. RIGHT?
I mean, WTF over? I just don't follow the numbers here.
Mark Bitterlich
p.s. Yes, this message brought me out of the weeds.
--- On Fri, 11/26/10, Richard Goode <richard.goode(at)russianaeros.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
From: Richard Goode <richard.goode(at)russianaeros.com>
Subject: Romania
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Friday, November 26, 2010, 10:33 AM
I have just returned from Romania, visiting Aerostar, who have manufactured all Yak-52, and Motorstar, who manufacture /overhaul the M14P engine. Some issues that could be of interest:
Obviously production of Yak-52 has slowed right down, but they have just delivered ten new Yak-52 to Vietnam – price justover US $400,000 each.
In terms of total numbers of Yak-52 in the world their estimates are as follows:
Ø USA 322.
Ø UK 105.
Ø Germany 55.
Ø Spain 20.
Ø Italy 15.
Ø France 15.
Ø Sweden 5.
Ø Holland / Begium 6.
Ø Australia / New Zealand 25.
Ø South Africa 15.
Ø Others circa 25.
Total 608
In addition military operators are as follows:
Ø Romania 18.
Ø Hungary 11.
Ø Vietnam 31.
Ø In addition there are other military operators in Ukraine; Georgia; Uzbekistan and Kazakhstan etc.
Russia:
Ø They estimate that there are about 350 flyable in Russia, and a similar number existing but not flyable.
Ø Total production is 1,815 to date.
Ø Of these the first 60 were flush-riveted.
For military users, Aerostar still offers a military style TOTAL overhaul – that is a strip down to every last component and then built to a new aircraft. Current price for this is a bit over US $200,000. (I saw two Romanian Air Force Yak-52s undergoing this process).
I had thought that the major airframe strengthening Bulletins (59/60/107) on Yak-52 were issued because of cracks being seen in aircraft, rather than actual failures, but it is worth noting that there were actually two fatal accidents of Yak-52 involving total airframe failure (actually the centre section between the wings), which led to the introduction of 59 and 60 Bulletins. So if your 52 does not have 59 and 60 - fly gently!
Motorstar has just delivered five engines to the Chinese, to put into their new version of the CJ6. It is interesting that they have gone to Romania for these engines – I had assumed that the Chinese had all the production that they needed. Also I have seen in these listings, people referring to a 400hp version of the Chinese engine – does such a thing exist? Have many been made?
Motorstar continue to make a few new engines, as well as overhaul old ones. It would seem that they have good supplies of most components but it is feared that there are likely to be shortages in the long-term – for example exhaust valves. My personal feeling is that no new parts are being made in Russia and current stocks are simply being eroded.
Richard Goode Aerobatics
Rhodds Farm
Lyonshall
Herefordshire
HR5 3LW
United Kingdom
Tel: +44 (0) 1544 340120
Fax: +44 (0) 1544 340129
www.russianaeros.com
| Quote: |
ollow target=_blank>www.aeroelectric.com
/" rel=nofollow target=_blank>www.buildersbooks.com
ofollow target=_blank>www.homebuilthelp.com
llow target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution
=nofollow target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
et=_blank>http://forums.matronics.com
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[quote][b]
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William Halverson
Joined: 27 Feb 2010
Posts: 88
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| Posted: Sat Nov 27, 2010 7:17 pm Post subject: Romania |
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Communist solidarity?
+--
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cjpilot710(at)aol.com
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f4ffm2(at)roadrunner.com
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| Posted: Sat Nov 27, 2010 9:34 pm Post subject: Romania |
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Gee, fellows....what are we not understanding about the meaning of the word "new"? Do you have any idea what a "new" Cirrus SR-22 costs? Are we forgetting that virtually all of the Yak 52's and 50's of which we all are so fond were bought at scrap prices out of a system that was essentially in collapse? There is no rational ground for a comparison of the cost of those airplanes and new examples of the same kind of airplane.
Roger________________________________________________________
On Nov 27, 2010, at 9:05 PM, cjpilot710(at)aol.com (cjpilot710(at)aol.com) wrote:
[quote] Gee I agree. Maybe they have the same kind of politicians as us. Somebody must be getting a kick back.
Hell at those prices, a CJ-6a would go for 1 million? I just might give up mine for that. (Oh dear, I might have started something - - - - - again) 
Pappy
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richard.goode(at)russiana
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| Posted: Sun Nov 28, 2010 1:47 am Post subject: Romania |
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What would it cost to build a NEW 52 by a major US manufacturer-I'm sure a great deal more than $400k.!!!
It is a complex plane to make;Romania joined Europe,so their wages have risen dramaticly;quantities are much smaller than in the past,so less economy of scale etc.
Finally governments will never hunt around to buy cheap planes from the civilian market,however little money they might have.
The real point is that we have been very forntunate to live in a window of time in which fine aircraft were able to be bought at incredibly low prices-we should be VERY grateful!
Richard
Richard Goode Aerobatics
Rhodds Farm
Lyonshall
Hereford
HR5 3LW
United Kingdom
Tel: +44 (0) 1544 340120
Fax: +44 (0) 1544 340129
www.russianaeros.com
[quote] ---
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cpayne(at)joimail.com
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| Posted: Sun Nov 28, 2010 4:06 am Post subject: Romania |
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Some current prices:
New Cessna Skylane - $390,300, that includes Garmin GFC 700 suite which is standard on all Cessna singles except for the Skycatcher.
Piper Archer III - $299,500 with standard Avidyne suite
New Yak-52 - $400,000 Fleet sale price, with spares I assume.
Hal Morely's CJ-6 - "Comparable" to the above.
Craig Payne
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cjpilot710(at)aol.com
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| Posted: Sun Nov 28, 2010 4:40 am Post subject: Romania |
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Richard, Roger, and Payne make a good point. And when you realize a Extra goes for more than $300k, perhaps that $400k for a Y-52 looks a little more "reasonable" although that does seem a little high. And just a few days ago, I talked with a guy who sold his award winning Aerocoup for $45,000 ( a pre war model). Of course I am a guy who remembers when Cubs, Luscombe, and Aerocoups, sold for $2,500 and that guys seem like only yesterday. I guess time (and prices) march on.
BTW I flew a SeaRay yesterday. 10 T/L on Lake Crescent. It handle really nice, good control harmony and plenty of power. I don't think I'd loop it though. New ones with every thing is around $125K.
Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
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viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
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| Posted: Sun Nov 28, 2010 7:25 am Post subject: Romania |
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Agreed.
Doc
From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard Goode
Sent: Sunday, November 28, 2010 3:44 AM
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Romania
What would it cost to build a NEW 52 by a major US manufacturer-I'm sure a great deal more than $400k.!!!
It is a complex plane to make;Romania joined Europe,so their wages have risen dramaticly;quantities are much smaller than in the past,so less economy of scale etc.
Finally governments will never hunt around to buy cheap planes from the civilian market,however little money they might have.
The real point is that we have been very forntunate to live in a window of time in which fine aircraft were able to be bought at incredibly low prices-we should be VERY grateful!
Richard
Richard Goode Aerobatics
Rhodds Farm
Lyonshall
Hereford
HR5 3LW
United Kingdom
Tel: +44 (0) 1544 340120
Fax: +44 (0) 1544 340129
www.russianaeros.com
[quote]
---
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george.coy(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Sun Nov 28, 2010 8:01 am Post subject: Romania |
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I notice all the chatter about the $400,000 price of the new Yak-52. The main point is that they are still in production, although very limited production. That is the good news here.
I would point out that the Vietnam Yak-52 is the original Russian airplane with all the original Russian equipment including mechanical data recorders, Russian ADF, all Russian gages and systems. I am actually amazed that they can make the airplane for that low a price.
I bought 10 new stock Russian Yak-52 back in 1996 and imported them to the U.S. When I went to buy more in 1998, the price had tripled mainly due to the cost of the Russian equipment. This was the deciding factor in developing the Yak-52W. The “W” version used western radios, instruments and electrical components. This knocked almost $40,000 off the cost in1998. We carried this concept through when we developed the 52TW.
I have met with the “Generals” in Vietnam in 2009 about the Yak-52. They want the original Yaks without any modifications. They understand that there are much better and more modern ways to build the airplane at considerable less cost, but their political system does not permit much innovation. The younger aids were excited to see some modernization to the aircraft, but the older high ranking people were afraid of any changes. There are also a lot of pockets that get filled along the way when they buy airplanes.
George Coy
CAS Ltd.
714 Airport Rd.
Swanton VT 05488
802-868-5633 off
802-363-5782 cell
george.coy(at)gmail.com (george.coy(at)gmail.com)
http://coyafct.com/
SKYPE george.coy
[quote][b]
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AV8ORJWC
Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 1149
Location: Aurora, Oregon "Home of VANS"
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| Posted: Sun Nov 28, 2010 12:24 pm Post subject: Romania |
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Hal's exceeds all three in capability and class. Besides its not a certificated production unit but more like a one of a kind work of art.
John Cox
From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com on behalf of Cpayne
Sent: Sun 11/28/2010 4:04 AM
To: yak-list
Subject: Re: Romania
--> Yak-List message posted by: Cpayne <cpayne(at)joimail.com>
Some current prices:
New Cessna Skylane - $390,300, that includes Garmin GFC 700 suite which is standard on all Cessna singles except for the Skycatcher.
Piper Archer III - $299,500 with standard Avidyne suite
New Yak-52 - $400,000 Fleet sale price, with spares I assume.
Hal Morely's CJ-6 - "Comparable" to the above.
Craig p; -- Please Support Your Lists This Month November is the Annual List Fund Raiser. Click href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/cgenerous ; -Matt Dralle, List nbsp; - The Yak-List Email Forum href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics========================<http://forums.matronics.com
==============
[quote][b]
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george(at)gesoco.com
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| Posted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 5:51 am Post subject: Romania |
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I notice all the chatter about the $400,000 price of the new Yak-52. The main point is that they are still in production, although very limited production. That is the good news here.
I would point out that the Vietnam Yak-52 is the original Russian airplane with all the original Russian equipment including mechanical data recorders, Russian ADF, all Russian gages and systems. I am actually amazed that they can make the airplane for that low a price.
I bought 10 new stock Russian Yak-52 back in 1996 and imported them to the U.S. When I went to buy more in 1998, the price had tripled mainly due to the cost of the Russian equipment. This was the deciding factor in developing the Yak-52W. The “W” version used western radios, instruments and electrical components. This knocked almost $40,000 off the cost in1998. We carried this concept through when we developed the 52TW.
I have met with the “Generals” in Vietnam in 2009 about the Yak-52. They want the original Yaks without any modifications. They understand that there are much better and more modern ways to build the airplane at considerable less cost, but their political system does not permit much innovation. The younger aids were excited to see some modernization to the aircraft, but the older high ranking people were afraid of any changes. There are also a lot of pockets that get filled along the way when they buy airplanes.
George Coy
CAS Ltd.
714 Airport Rd.
Swanton VT 05488
802-868-5633 off
802-363-5782 cell
george.coy(at)gmail.com (george.coy(at)gmail.com)
http://coyafct.com/
SKYPE george.coy
[quote][b]
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mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
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| Posted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 6:55 am Post subject: Romania |
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Good answer.
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mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
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mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
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| Posted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 6:56 am Post subject: Romania |
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Ok, well then ask Richard Goode what some of the last BRAND NEW Sukhoi's were going for. Ask anyone in the world which they would prefer... a YAK-52 or a Sukhoi-29? But it's a really moot point. (Suke's still command a very high price by the way... and one of them BRAND NEW today might indeed be worth $400,000)
The value of anything on the planet is based on what people are willing to pay for it. If Vietnam is willing to $400,000 for a brand new YAK-52, more power to them. A that price, I am sure they would be willing to pay $100,000 for used YAK-52's just for the spare parts. I wonder if that might actually happen?
Roger, not bashing your point... because your point is very valid. A totally new airplane costs more than a used one purchased at "Fire Sale" prices. However, it's just the amount.... 400 grand. 400-500 grand will buy the very best of the very new, of the most modern aerobatic places out there using space age technology, with engines that are still being made and supported 100% by the factory. The YAK-52 ... great airplane that it is, falls far short of that description.
Mark
p.s. Not debating. Really does not matter to me.
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mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
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| Posted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 7:04 am Post subject: Romania |
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I am very grateful to have what I do 
I am also very grateful that an SNJ-5, or T-6G with a 600 HP Pratt can be had for about $180,000.
It would be very interesting to see what the U.S. could build YAK-52's for, but the real question would be, who would want them after they were built... for 400 grand each? What were those YAK-52TW's going for? $150,00 or so?
If these aircraft were destined for the Vietnamese military, then that is a whole different can of worms. If it was a Government military purchase, then that's chump change.
Mark
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richard.goode(at)russiana
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| Posted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 7:54 am Post subject: Romania |
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The last 3 new Sukhoi Su-29 were sold at over $500,000 each.
One was to a rich,but low-time pilot, "New Russian" businessman,who said he did not need any converting to type.
On his first flight he went off the end of the runway at high speed;demolished the plane [of course no insurance], but he walked away!!
Richard
Richard Goode Aerobatics
Rhodds Farm
Lyonshall
Hereford
HR5 3LW
United Kingdom
Tel: +44 (0) 1544 340120
Fax: +44 (0) 1544 340129
www.russianaeros.com
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mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
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| Posted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 8:45 am Post subject: Romania |
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Sad story.
To those that might not know it, some of those Suke's had TITANIUM landing gear legs. The gear legs alone on a Suke are worth a ton of money. I believe 1/2 mil for one of the best two seat aerobatic aircraft in the world is within the bounds of reality. Anyway.... the question was answered when you mentioned it was a military buy for the 52's. Enough said..... That explains everything.
Mark
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